Maximum potential extent of the Valyrian Freehold?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Yi Ti never had a dragon, a ruler in Yi Ti married a valyrian, no Yi Ti'sh person ever rode it.

 

If your going to be 1 of those people that says we don't know anything until its told to us directly than fine you/we don't know much.  However the fact of the matter is that GRRM has given us enough info to put it together, he expects us to add 1+1 and get 2.  To put it in literary terms, when you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras, the most reasonable answer is probably correct, there is no reason to assume something illogical.

[John Suburbs]

What's puzzling to me is that Valyria was ruled by score of rival dragonlord houses for thousands of years but there are no reports of civil war between them. Westeros, on the other hand, saw one within 130 years. Makes we wonder if that whole event was somehow orchestrated. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

We don't have the full history of Valyria, there may have been many inter family conflicts.  Given how disastrous it is for the family though, they probably learned that any 2 families that fought would wind up at the bottom of the 40 families when all their dragons were dead.  So they switched to assassinations.

[Fat Mac]

Our scarce knowledge on Valyria in general makes me think they kept their records and histories close, to where foreigners only know slight pieces of information here and there.

[DominusNovus]

SNIP

 

Excellently argued.  Gold Star.

[DominusNovus]

Yi Ti never had a dragon, a ruler in Yi Ti married a valyrian, no Yi Ti'sh person ever rode it.

 

If your going to be 1 of those people that says we don't know anything until its told to us directly than fine you/we don't know much.  However the fact of the matter is that GRRM has given us enough info to put it together, he expects us to add 1+1 and get 2.  To put it in literary terms, when you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras, the most reasonable answer is probably correct, there is no reason to assume something illogical.

 

"The Fourth Yellow Emperor, who took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria and kept a dragon at his court."

 

If you're criticize me for not accepting one of several conflicting accounts of what happened to Valyria, because its obvious (to you) what GRRM wants us to infer, while, in the same breath, denying what is explictly written about Yi Ti, I tip my hat to your abilities of compartmentalization.

 

Finally, I'm not saying the prevailing theory is wrong.  I'm just saying we ignore it for the purposes of this discussion.  This is not a difficult concept.

[The Commentator]

They could have expanded the empire beyond its borders.  However, the ruling class was limited to 40 families that pretty much stayed close to the capital.  Governing an empire bigger than what they had would have been a problem. 

 

Actually, the fact that there were no humans on Westeros prior to the First Men is a clue to us that the ancient Valyrians purposely stayed away from that place.  Perhaps there was a long-forgotten treaty between the greenseers and the Valyrians to stay out of each other's lands.  And why would you want to invest in land, build a castle, and then have it all go to waste when the long night comes in. 

[DominusNovus]

They could have expanded the empire beyond its borders.  However, the ruling class was limited to 40 families that pretty much stayed close to the capital.  Governing an empire bigger than what they had would have been a problem. 

 

Actually, the fact that there were no humans on Westeros prior to the First Men is a clue to us that the ancient Valyrians purposely stayed away from that place.  Perhaps there was a long-forgotten treaty between the greenseers and the Valyrians to stay out of each other's lands.  And why would you want to invest in land, build a castle, and then have it all go to waste when the long night comes in. 

 

I think the timeline there doesn't add up.  The Andals came to Westeros around the time that the Valyrians were expanding, and the First Men had been there for thousands of years by that point.

[Maester of Valyria]

 

Actually, the fact that there were no humans on Westeros prior to the First Men is a clue to us that the ancient Valyrians purposely stayed away from that place.  Perhaps there was a long-forgotten treaty between the greenseers and the Valyrians to stay out of each other's lands.  And why would you want to invest in land, build a castle, and then have it all go to waste when the long night comes in. 

There were humans in Westeros before the First Men, such as Garth Greenhand and his people. The First Men were simply the first major migration into Westeros. Also, the Valyrians didn't know about the Long Night.

[Fat Mac]

There were humans in Westeros before the First Men, such as Garth Greenhand and his people. The First Men were simply the first major migration into Westeros. Also, the Valyrians didn't know about the Long Night.

The legends of Garth Greenhand are up to considerable debate. The times he was said to have lived span milennia alone. The stories that are attributed to him can't all possibly be true, and that brings into question his entire existence.

[John Suburbs]

IIRC, according to some legends, GG was the first First Man, leading his people over the land bridge, past Dorne and into the fertile greenlands.

[Lord Wraith]

They could easily have conquered the whole world.

Real time communication meant that reports could reach back to Valyria no matter how vast the realm becomes.

Yi Ti would have put up as much a fight as Ghis, perhaps even more of a fight, but they too could have been subjugated.

I could see Valyria becoming a Global Freehold. The only problem would be stability: the greater the realm becomes, the more likely a chance of civil war with all the horror it entails. It will only be a matter of time until the Lords Freeholder become so disorganized that one Dragonlord decides to perminantly seize power for himself.

But I could also see Valyria industrializing. They had magic, so once they learn to mesh it with technology slavery could become outmoded like Aristotle predicted.

 

Pretty much this. With glass candles that have nigh instant communication. As long as they could keep breeding dragons and not start fighting among themselves I don't see what would have stopped them.

[DominusNovus]

This is something of a tangent, but its still relatively on the topic:

 

Suppose the Doom is just delayed, for whatever reasons suits your fancy.  The Targaryens, however, are still hanging out on Dragonstone, just waiting for the Doom.  Eventually, sick of their isolation and the constant ridicule they endure, an analogue to Aegon (we'll keep the same name for ease) decides to add some new territory.  He conquers Westeros for the Freehold, and then returns the Targaryens to Valyria, bathed in the glory of conquest, as Westeros is incorporated into the Freehold.

 

The Doom then happens a few generations later.

 

How does this Westeros look, post Doom?  After their culture, language, government, demographics, and religion have been changed by Valyrian assimilation?

[Lord Wraith]

This is something of a tangent, but its still relatively on the topic:

 

Suppose the Doom is just delayed, for whatever reasons suits your fancy.  The Targaryens, however, are still hanging out on Dragonstone, just waiting for the Doom.  Eventually, sick of their isolation and the constant ridicule they endure, an analogue to Aegon (we'll keep the same name for ease) decides to add some new territory.  He conquers Westeros for the Freehold, and then returns the Targaryens to Valyria, bathed in the glory of conquest, as Westeros is incorporated into the Freehold.

 

The Doom then happens a few generations later.

 

How does this Westeros look, post Doom?  After their culture, language, government, demographics, and religion have been changed by Valyrian assimilation?

 

A great deal changes but we have nothing but speculation on what would happen. Needless to say that all the seven kingdoms would be conquered. Dorne may have been able to withstand Aegon and his three dragons but the Valyrians have hundreds and aren't afraid to use them if need be, just ask Garin,

[Maester of Valyria]

The legends of Garth Greenhand are up to considerable debate. The times he was said to have lived span milennia alone. The stories that are attributed to him can't all possibly be true, and that brings into question his entire existence.

We know that there were humans in Westeros before the First Men migration; the legends of Oldtown, populated by the 'men who came before the First Men'. The legends indicate (legends can be inaccurate, but they often point to the truth, especially in fantasy) that Garth Greenhand was one of these people. Also, it is ridiculous that absolutely no humans were in Westeros prior to the First Men. Surely some small groups would have crossed the Arm in search of a better life, or even sailed across what would become the Narrow Sea.

[Maester of Valyria]

They could easily have conquered the whole world.

Real time communication meant that reports could reach back to Valyria no matter how vast the realm becomes.

Yi Ti would have put up as much a fight as Ghis, perhaps even more of a fight, but they too could have been subjugated.

I could see Valyria becoming a Global Freehold. The only problem would be stability: the greater the realm becomes, the more likely a chance of civil war with all the horror it entails. It will only be a matter of time until the Lords Freeholder become so disorganized that one Dragonlord decides to perminantly seize power for himself.

But I could also see Valyria industrializing. They had magic, so once they learn to mesh it with technology slavery could become outmoded like Aristotle predicted.

Yi Ti would have put up much more of a fight than Ghis; it is potentially Valyria's equal, even without dragons.

I agree that real-time communication would have been essential in keeping the Freehold together once it passed a certain size.

Keep in mind that there was never a civil war between the families of the Freehold, which indicates that the underlying political structure was sound. Also, with much more territory, unruly families could have been pacified with lordships, etc.

I think Valyria would have industrialised, although not to the extent of our world did, as they could rely on magic for many things.

[Caspoi]

Maester of Valyria@ Valyria was more powerful then than when they started fighting Ghiscar and while I do not doubt that Yi Ti could field tons of troops Valyria has hundreds of dragons, and remember what three of them, and hardly any men, accomplished.

[Maester of Valyria]

Maester of Valyria@ Valyria was more powerful then than when they started fighting Ghiscar and while I do not doubt that Yi Ti could field tons of troops Valyria has hundreds of dragons, and remember what three of them, and hardly any men, accomplished.

From TWOIAF, section on Yi Ti: 'wealth that exceeded even that of Valyria at its height and armies of almost unimaginable size'.

This is a pretty clear indication that Yi Ti, like Valyria, was a top-tier civilisation. Note the phrase 'at its height', which indicates that even when Valyria was at its apex Yi Ti was still of comparable power.

However, as I said above, we are postulating a Freehold of much greater power than it ever reached in 'reality'; as it encompasses Westeros, Sarnor, and indeed all of Essos west of the Bones. We can probably assume that Valyria would have overpowered Yi Ti eventually, but only after years of war that would have put the Ghiscari Wars to shame, as it is clear that Yi Ti is far more powerful than the Old Empire of Ghis ever was.

[Lord Wraith]

From TWOIAF, section on Yi Ti: 'wealth that exceeded even that of Valyria at its height and armies of almost unimaginable size'.

This is a pretty clear indication that Yi Ti, like Valyria, was a top-tier civilisation. Note the phrase 'at its height', which indicates that even when Valyria was at its apex Yi Ti was still of comparable power.

However, as I said above, we are postulating a Freehold of much greater power than it ever reached in 'reality'; as it encompasses Westeros, Sarnor, and indeed all of Essos west of the Bones. We can probably assume that Valyria would have overpowered Yi Ti eventually, but only after years of war that would have put the Ghiscari Wars to shame, as it is clear that Yi Ti is far more powerful than the Old Empire of Ghis ever was.

 

Was Yi Ti at its peak during the same time as the Valyrian expansion?

[Caspoi]

Maester of Valyria@ note the word "wealth". I do not doubt that Yi Ti would put up a good fight but I believe that the armies would be more equal than in the Ghiscari wars, and with more dragons for the valyrians. After all at the time of the ghiscari wars Valyria was nothing in terms of power while Ghiscar controled much of their later eastern and southern provinces.