What's up with Anguy and Edrik?

[LongRider]

Arya calls Greenbeard the leader, but no one calls him captain.  As for what Thoros said about the brotherhood being broken, I doubt he was talking about broken men in general.  He was refering to the brotherhood being broken over Beric's final death and the rise of LS.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

Arya calls Greenbeard the leader, but no one calls him captain.  As for what Thoros said about the brotherhood being broken, I doubt he was talking about broken men in general.  He was refering to the brotherhood being broken over Beric's final death and the rise of LS.

No, they don't call him "captain". I was obviously using a conceptual term. Why would Arya call Greenbeard the leader after traveling with them for 3-4 days? Because he's giving the orders: we'll camp here, you and you get firewood, pack up and go.

If a group is split, the term is "split" or "broken up", not just "broken". "Broken" to me is about broken spirit. Since the BwB had a certain spirit under Beric, that spirit is gone, broken, after his death. It's a different spirit now.

[LongRider]

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, they don't call him "captain". I was obviously using a conceptual term. Why would Arya call Greenbeard the leader after traveling with them for 3-4 days? Because he's giving the orders: we'll camp here, you and you get firewood, pack up and go.

We don't see Greenbeard giving little orders to the outlaws like that.  C'mon, he gets Arya calling him a leader and that's it.  We have description where and why they stop and who their contacts are.  The little details are left to the imagination.  Besides, who was the leader of the outlaws Arya is with is less important that what happened to them to cause a possible split. 

Thoros is the one who tells us about that and the appendix suggests a split as well.  So what, actually, did Thoros say?   He says three things:

Quote

"We were king's men when we began," the man told her, "but king's men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end."

He says we once brothers, but now the brotherhood is broken.  He does not say the brothers are broken, but the brotherhood is, so that is what he is referring too, the group.

Next he answers Brienne's question: 

Quote

"And justice? Can that be found in caves?"
"Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves.

We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."
 

Here he tells Bri that BWB had thought they were being fair and handing out justice when Beric led them, but by saying this, he infers that that may no longer be the case.  Interesting that he now changes the R'hollr prayer chant, nights turn into knights.  He doesn't however, tell us who the knight are that he is referring to.  Could this reference the split?  It just might.

And lastly; 

Quote

"Are you saying you are monsters?"
"I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were . . . less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women."

With this speech, I can see why some might think he's referring to broken men, perhaps, but he maybe thinking of something else.  LS seems to be focusing on revenge, and the act of revenge may be how monsters that were once men are made.  But how can we know how a man, or woman may end, if the end comes, and it's not the end after all, as with LS?   

So no, I don't think Thoros is talking about broken men, but the break within the brotherhood itself, which what he directly referred too.  

 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

We don't see Greenbeard giving little orders to the outlaws like that.  C'mon, he gets Arya calling him a leader and that's it.  We have description where and why they stop and who their contacts are.  The little details are left to the imagination.  Besides, who was the leader of the outlaws Arya is with is less important that what happened to them to cause a possible split. 

Thoros is the one who tells us about that and the appendix suggests a split as well.  So what, actually, did Thoros say?   He says three things:

He says we once brothers, but now the brotherhood is broken.  He does not say the brothers are broken, but the brotherhood is, so that is what he is referring too, the group.

Next he answers Brienne's question: 

Here he tells Bri that BWB had thought they were being fair and handing out justice when Beric led them, but by saying this, he infers that that may no longer be the case.  Interesting that he now changes the R'hollr prayer chant, nights turn into knights.  He doesn't however, tell us who the knight are that he is referring to.  Could this reference the split?  It just might.

And lastly; 

With this speech, I can see why some might think he's referring to broken men, perhaps, but he maybe thinking of something else.  LS seems to be focusing on revenge, and the act of revenge may be how monsters that were once men are made.  But how can we know how a man, or woman may end, if the end comes, and it's not the end after all, as with LS?   

So no, I don't think Thoros is talking about broken men, but the break within the brotherhood itself, which what he directly referred too.  

 

Do we really need George to write us such mundane stuff as making and breaking up camp. We hardly see it even with Beric. We do know that Arya has been riding with the BwB for 3 days and another day when she thinks that Greenbeard is a the leader. Arya is a perceptive girl in that regard. Hence we can assume that she saw behavior where Greenbeard gave commands to the rest of the group she was traveling with.

I don't agree with LS only focusing on revenge. A lot is made about Beric only in it for justice and protecting smallfolk and the BwB under LS not protecting smallfolk anymore and only in it for revenge without justice.

Anguy and Lem make a joke where they say Beric always gives them a trial, and the other adds "and then he hangs them". The Hound's trial is actually an exception. It originally starts as most trials tend to go: with BwB men giving names of their fellow comrades who died by Lions, and since their captive is a Lion they're guilty by association. That's how the trials under Beric normally go. But Sandor can argue well and so finally Beric is bound to take it serious and grants him a trial by combat. Most men the BwB caught before that for a trial were probably no lords or highborn knights, but just smallfolk rounded up to fight for Lannister and without the ability to argue so well as Sandor does. They had a trial, were found guilty by association and hanged.

Is that any different from Merret's trial? Or Brienne's? Nope. They get a trial, and then she hangs them. Meanwhile she actually has associates setting up a make-shift orphanage and puts a guard (Lem) on duty for it, and the orphanage is armed on top of it. Smallfolk seem ok with the BwB, not wanting to rat on them to Amy at Darry's castle either. And they still hunt the mummers as well, aside from Lions and Freys. And instead of taking out only the men-at-arms, they actually hang their bosses too. They capture the armed and bodyguarded Ryman and hang him and his men-at-arms and it seems very much they had an informant to find him. They know where to find Jaime, and that cannot happen without an informant. All in all, that looks like they're even better organized and supported than they were before. And that I doubt they would be, if they were split.

So, no I don't take Thoros' words for it, or in that light. The hints and clues we can surmise from Amy's complaints and Lannister cousins informing Jaime and his capture show that they are better organized, have a huge network and are widely supported.

[LongRider]

Merrett didn't get a trial.  He begged for his life and Tom told him if he could answer a question, Tom would ask if they would let him go.  He answered Tom's question, Tom asked about letting Merrett go and the answer was no and Merrett hanged. edt;  Merrett argued that they had no witnesses of him at the RW, and this is when LS is introduced and her nod identified him.  Merrett didn't get a trial, he just got toyed with before he swung.  No trial.  Actually, we don't know if Beric let anyone go after a trial.  Sandor challenged him to a fight and still Beric cheated! 

Harwin tells Arya the BWB is for the smallfolk, and this idea is reinforced all through Arya's chapters until she is stolen by the Hound.  What is called the BWB is it actual members or the folk small and noble (Lady Smallwood for example) who are willing to help because the BWB helps them?  More of both methinks and the numbers could be inflated too.

As for LS being for revenge?  I disagree.  Here is a quote of the living Cat to Brienne  "I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one."   Sounds to me like she's looking for revenge, and this was before the RW!

That the BWB is large is most likely true, but groups have splits in them quite frequently.  And as Thoros laments, the group was for justice once, but now?  It doesn't seem so.  So if the group has split as seems likely, where are Edric and Anguy?  With the split off group or gone off by themselves?  We don't know.

Splitter!

 

[sweetsunray]

Sure, it's not what we call a trial... but Merett was accused, and a witness confirmed his direct part in it, for which he got hanged. Of course, the witness is also the judge, jury and executioner. It's not a trial by our modern standards where investigators are witnesses aren't also judges, jury and executioner and law-maker into one. No matter how quick the trial goes, it's a trial nonetheless: accusation = witness + judgement + sentencing.

Also, in modern times most of us consider revenge as not being part of justice, but it is part of many countries where an eye-for-an-eye is part of the justice principle and where there is capital punishment. I'm anti capital punishment and have the luxury to live in a continent where it is abolished and no member state is allowed to have it in their constitution. I personally do not agree with constitutions that incorporate the eye-for-an-eye principal, whether that is capital punishment or stoning or chopping off limbs. But I do recognize that revenge can be an ideological part of a justice system. 

As I said, I don't see reliable evidence to conclude the BwB are split. And even some members have left the BwB that does not constitute a split to me. It's only a split if they actually divide themselves ideologically such as in the great Life of Brian fragment and have followers. If Edric attempted to simply go home and Anguy escorted him, they are either deserters or ceised to be members.

[LongRider]

34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sure, it's not what we call a trial... but Merett ~~~snip~~~~

 

As I said, I don't see reliable evidence to conclude the BwB are split. And even some members have left the BwB that does not constitute a split to me. It's only a split if they actually divide themselves ideologically such as in the great Life of Brian fragment and have followers. If Edric attempted to simply go home and Anguy escorted him, they are either deserters or ceised to be members.

If Edric and Anguy left the group, then they split from the group, if one is splitting hairs.  The one who split these hairs is GRRM however, as he wrote the appendix and split the outlaws into two groups. 

As for Merrett, he rode into a trap set by the BWB to extort some gold from Walder Frey and kill whatever Frey that brought it.  Merrett challenged them about them killing Petyr as he brought the ransom as he was told.  He was told, that the outlaws had a rope so that gave them the right to hang Petyr, and as for letting him go for a ransom "That was a lie of sorts, as it happens."  That's not a trial, it's a trap.  Just because they let Merrett beg for his life doesn't change that. 

[sweetsunray]

A trap and a trial. If there absolutely was no trial, they wouldn't even have bothered with a witness. A mockery of a trial? Absolutely. But technically there was a quick-service trial. Septon Utt was hanged without a witness telling what he did to boys.