Why did Tywin sack Kings Landing?

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

 

? Please improve the level of yours. ?

Yes, of course the king and the hand are in nominal command and can overrule Tywin, but they don't. Rossart is a pyromancer and doesn't know the first thing about sieges and warfare, and in all the POVs and visions, we never see Aerys seeing anyone but the pyromancers. Tywin was expressly allowed into the city to take command of its defenses. You think Tywin is going to start taking orders from some minor lord, Alliser Thorne perhaps? Tywin is the highest ranking lord in the city, he has the biggest army, so he is the man in charge. And as long as he doesn't commit any overtly treasonous acts, he has all the authority he needs to deploy men anywhere in the city. The only thing that would look strange is if he started to amass, say, 5000 soldiers -- nearly half his army -- in and around the Red Keep. Aerys will of course want to know why these men are not on the city walls where they should be. What is Tywin going to say? They're here to protect the king? The king has 2000 of his own men inside the keep.

Aerys had started planting wildfire right after the battle of the bells, months earlier. Yes, he's only going to use it as a last resort, which is why he let Tywin in -- even if Tywin does turn his cloak, Aerys is still safe in the RK because he doesn't think anyone can get to him before the city goes up. All the better if he can hold out until Robert shows up. And yes, Aerys thinks he is going to survive this and turn into a dragon -- at least that's what Jaime believes. What is your source as to what Aerys believed when he opened the gates? The people of the city believe this story of a rapprochement, and this is how the history is written, but there is no text of any kind that I'm aware of that says what Aerys thought.

No, Aerys cannot conclude that it is Tywin just because there is fighting in the city, especially since he is not seeing anyone but Rossart by this time. It's Rossart who finally tells him that the Lannisters are inside his walls. If Tywin had to fight his way across the city first and then assault the Red Keep, why didn't someone bring this little tidbit of information to Rossart to give to Aerys' attention sooner? Why is Jaime still walking around with a sword in his hand? If he knew it was Lannister soldiers causing the trouble, why didn't Aerys order even 100 of his thousands of loyalists to take Jaime down so he could be dragged onto the walls of the keep and threatened with bodily harm if Tywin does not relent? Why is Aerys so surprised that Tywin's men are inside his walls if he's known all along that Tywin is a traitor?

The rest you're just making it up off the top of your head. There is no text anywhere that marks the arrival of these loyal troops before the sack began. Ned is right on their heels, and by the time he gets there the city is in turmoil and Lannister banners are flying over the walls. Rhaegar took every available fighting man north to the Trident, leaving only Aerys' personal garrison. Why would he do anything else? Aerys has already sent 90 percent of the power of Highgarden to sit on their arses at Storms End, and a good third of his own army is of dubious loyalty because they were basically forced to march under the threat of Elia's head. Rhaegar knows that if he loses on the Trident, 10,000 soldiers will not be enough to hold off the combined armies of the North, Vale and Riverlands. I've seen all your quotes, and others besides, and the fact is the only Targ fighters ever mentioned are the few thousand in the Red Keep.

And unless you believe that the gates to the city were opened to Tywin when these loyal forces, with Ned's van right on their heels, are only minutes up the Kingsroad, then Tywin obviously has hours, if not days, to deploy his men. He has to get his army inside quickly, but you can't just let 12,000 soldiers wander around in the streets. Talk about an order that Aerys would overrule. They have to be deployed as they enter, so that means by the time the last of the Lann army passes through the gatehouse, all of the key points of the city -- all the gates, battlements, towers, key intersections, weapons/supply depots and anything else of military value -- are under Lannister control. Only then does the sack begin, suddenly and without warning.

I don't get you're last comment. Why would Aerys' followers find Jaime, and what does it prove if they had? Do you think Aerys shared his wildfire plan with his garrison? I can't imagine he would have very many loyal defenders if he had. The walls of the Red Keep are not as formidable as the city walls. Clegane and Lorch are able to scale their way over and up to Elia's apartments with little trouble. Crake, West and all the rest did the same but made for the throne room instead. And besides, Aerys doesn't realize who is attacking him as soon as the keep was assaulted, but only after the walls have been breached. Still further evidence that he has no idea what is happening until Rossart tells him.

 

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

We don't, we believe he made decisions that revolve around an entirely different scenario than the one you think occurred, we simply disagree with the plausibility of your scenario, so there's no point in dragging the discussion out any further. 

You think Tywin not doing it this way is stupid, we think Tywin doing it that way is unrealistic and beyond his means and the means of his men. 

It's an agree to disagree scenario. 

I was responding to the comment above that has the remnants of Rhaegar's army making it back to KL, Tywin letting them in, and only afterward realizing he now has to fight thousands of enemy soldiers in order to take control of the city. Didn't happen. Couldn't have possibly happened.

[Lion of the West]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Y? Please improve the level of yours. ?

Yes, of course the king and the hand are in nominal command and can overrule Tywin, but they don't. Rossart is a pyromancer and doesn't know the first thing about sieges and warfare, and in all the POVs and visions, we never see Aerys seeing anyone but the pyromancers. Tywin was expressly allowed into the city to take command of its defenses. You think Tywin is going to start taking orders from some minor lord, Alliser Thorne perhaps? Tywin is the highest ranking lord in the city, he has the biggest army, so he is the man in charge. And as long as he doesn't commit any overtly treasonous acts, he has all the authority he needs to deploy men anywhere in the city. The only thing that would look strange is if he started to amass, say, 5000 soldiers -- nearly half his army -- in and around the Red Keep. Aerys will of course want to know why these men are not on the city walls where they should be. What is Tywin going to say? They're here to protect the king? The king has 2000 of his own men inside the keep.

Aerys had started planting wildfire right after the battle of the bells, months earlier. Yes, he's only going to use it as a last resort, which is why he let Tywin in -- even if Tywin does turn his cloak, Aerys is still safe in the RK because he doesn't think anyone can get to him before the city goes up. All the better if he can hold out until Robert shows up. And yes, Aerys thinks he is going to survive this and turn into a dragon -- at least that's what Jaime believes. What is your source as to what Aerys believed when he opened the gates? The people of the city believe this story of a rapprochement, and this is how the history is written, but there is no text of any kind that I'm aware of that says what Aerys thought.

No, Aerys cannot conclude that it is Tywin just because there is fighting in the city, especially since he is not seeing anyone but Rossart by this time. It's Rossart who finally tells him that the Lannisters are inside his walls. If Tywin had to fight his way across the city first and then assault the Red Keep, why didn't someone bring this little tidbit of information to Rossart to give to Aerys' attention sooner? Why is Jaime still walking around with a sword in his hand? If he knew it was Lannister soldiers causing the trouble, why didn't Aerys order even 100 of his thousands of loyalists to take Jaime down so he could be dragged onto the walls of the keep and threatened with bodily harm if Tywin does not relent? Why is Aerys so surprised that Tywin's men are inside his walls if he's known all along that Tywin is a traitor?

The rest you're just making it up off the top of your head. There is no text anywhere that marks the arrival of these loyal troops before the sack began. Ned is right on their heels, and by the time he gets there the city is in turmoil and Lannister banners are flying over the walls. Rhaegar took every available fighting man north to the Trident, leaving only Aerys' personal garrison. Why would he do anything else? Aerys has already sent 90 percent of the power of Highgarden to sit on their arses at Storms End, and a good third of his own army is of dubious loyalty because they were basically forced to march under the threat of Elia's head. Rhaegar knows that if he loses on the Trident, 10,000 soldiers will not be enough to hold off the combined armies of the North, Vale and Riverlands. I've seen all your quotes, and others besides, and the fact is the only Targ fighters ever mentioned are the few thousand in the Red Keep.

And unless you believe that the gates to the city were opened to Tywin when these loyal forces, with Ned's van right on their heels, are only minutes up the Kingsroad, then Tywin obviously has hours, if not days, to deploy his men. He has to get his army inside quickly, but you can't just let 12,000 soldiers wander around in the streets. Talk about an order that Aerys would overrule. They have to be deployed as they enter, so that means by the time the last of the Lann army passes through the gatehouse, all of the key points of the city -- all the gates, battlements, towers, key intersections, weapons/supply depots and anything else of military value -- are under Lannister control. Only then does the sack begin, suddenly and without warning.

I don't get you're last comment. Why would Aerys' followers find Jaime, and what does it prove if they had? Do you think Aerys shared his wildfire plan with his garrison? I can't imagine he would have very many loyal defenders if he had. The walls of the Red Keep are not as formidable as the city walls. Clegane and Lorch are able to scale their way over and up to Elia's apartments with little trouble. Crake, West and all the rest did the same but made for the throne room instead. And besides, Aerys doesn't realize who is attacking him as soon as the keep was assaulted, but only after the walls have been breached. Still further evidence that he has no idea what is happening until Rossart tells him.

 

You started your last post with a condescending remark. Please rise above that level.

We have no idea what Aerys had in mind in regards to Tywin. He thought Tywin was there to save him but its just as likely that Aerys wanted him to come to the Red Keep with a nominal honor guard as much as stay at the walls, or march out and turn back Eddard's van. And thing is that Tywin wouldn't have been able to deny any request made by Aerys if his cover wouldn't be in danger. And Tywin is not the highest ranking lord in the ctiy, Rossart is that as Hand of the King. In the best of scenarios Aerys will hand over the defence entirely to Tywin, but odds are that combat ready loyalists seeing Stark troops on the horizont will not be overtaken as easily as hungry Lannister prison guards. And the important thing is that Tywin had to reach all his objectives before Eddard, hours way, arrived in the city. By that time everything had to be finished and not just work-in-progress.

My source is the several people who says the very things you posted. If you want to throw out all the sources, sure do that, but there will be little reason to discuss this it will just come down to; "I don't have any basis for it, but I think that...." which will be us battering our heads against each other.

For the first point, maybe Rossart was afraid that Aerys would have an outburst and have him killed? Or maybe Clegane and Lorch struck fast enoug for the Red Keep that the time between these men attacking the Red Keep and Aerys getting news is about he same time? Its stated in the sources that Aerys thought Tywin had come to save him. In regards to Jaime, Aerys I would say that Aerys thinks that Jaime is bound by his oath to the point death like the rest of Aerys' Kingsguard. That's why he gives Jaime the suicide command to kill his own father, and if I recall why Aerys is suprised when Jaime comes to kill him. He couldn't panthom that his Kingsguard would turn on him. Making Tywin having to kill his own son seems to be Aerys way to spite Tywin and get Jaime killed, and perhaps because the loyalists are not in the Red Keep but dying out in the city?

I take Eddard as a credible source in regards to military matters. If you think that he's a blundering idiot then that's your stand on him. And likewise there's no text that says Tywin arrived before these men either. Only that when Eddard arrived, Tywin had taken the city to deliver it to the rebels.

I don't think that Eddard is minutes behind Tywin. I think they are hours behind him and that they can't yet be seen from the battlements. I find it a more likely scenario that as the gates open, Tywin's van rush through it to kill the defenders and take control over the gate so the rest of the army can follow and spread out. Clegane and Lorch have special orders and race straight for the Red Keep through the streets.

The last part is that a Kingsguard with a bloody sword and a dead king as his feet could easily entice loyalists to attack him. And the thing I wanted to say is that Jaime didn't know what was happening around him. It could be a group of loyalist coming to see their king to safety for all he knew, when the Westermen arrived.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 1:19 AM, LionoftheWest said:

You started your last post with a condescending remark. Please rise above that level.

We have no idea what Aerys had in mind in regards to Tywin. He thought Tywin was there to save him but its just as likely that Aerys wanted him to come to the Red Keep with a nominal honor guard as much as stay at the walls, or march out and turn back Eddard's van. And thing is that Tywin wouldn't have been able to deny any request made by Aerys if his cover wouldn't be in danger. And Tywin is not the highest ranking lord in the ctiy, Rossart is that as Hand of the King. In the best of scenarios Aerys will hand over the defence entirely to Tywin, but odds are that combat ready loyalists seeing Stark troops on the horizont will not be overtaken as easily as hungry Lannister prison guards. And the important thing is that Tywin had to reach all his objectives before Eddard, hours way, arrived in the city. By that time everything had to be finished and not just work-in-progress.

My source is the several people who says the very things you posted. If you want to throw out all the sources, sure do that, but there will be little reason to discuss this it will just come down to; "I don't have any basis for it, but I think that...." which will be us battering our heads against each other.

For the first point, maybe Rossart was afraid that Aerys would have an outburst and have him killed? Or maybe Clegane and Lorch struck fast enoug for the Red Keep that the time between these men attacking the Red Keep and Aerys getting news is about he same time? Its stated in the sources that Aerys thought Tywin had come to save him. In regards to Jaime, Aerys I would say that Aerys thinks that Jaime is bound by his oath to the point death like the rest of Aerys' Kingsguard. That's why he gives Jaime the suicide command to kill his own father, and if I recall why Aerys is suprised when Jaime comes to kill him. He couldn't panthom that his Kingsguard would turn on him. Making Tywin having to kill his own son seems to be Aerys way to spite Tywin and get Jaime killed, and perhaps because the loyalists are not in the Red Keep but dying out in the city?

I take Eddard as a credible source in regards to military matters. If you think that he's a blundering idiot then that's your stand on him. And likewise there's no text that says Tywin arrived before these men either. Only that when Eddard arrived, Tywin had taken the city to deliver it to the rebels.

I don't think that Eddard is minutes behind Tywin. I think they are hours behind him and that they can't yet be seen from the battlements. I find it a more likely scenario that as the gates open, Tywin's van rush through it to kill the defenders and take control over the gate so the rest of the army can follow and spread out. Clegane and Lorch have special orders and race straight for the Red Keep through the streets.

The last part is that a Kingsguard with a bloody sword and a dead king as his feet could easily entice loyalists to attack him. And the thing I wanted to say is that Jaime didn't know what was happening around him. It could be a group of loyalist coming to see their king to safety for all he knew, when the Westermen arrived.

Condescending, lol. I thought I was being complementary. You almost got it, just a little bit more. Scroll back a few pages and get a look at the profanity-laced rants directed at me. It goes way beyond condescending.

We don't have an Aerys POV to know exactly what he is thinking, but we can guess his motivations based on his actions. The Trident is lost, Rhaegar is dead, and Ned is racing south with Robert's van. Aerys is unsure of Tywin's loyalty so he just invites him into the city and hopes he'll behave himself? How about Tywin proving his loyalty by marching north and destroying the van, and then fall on Robert's battered army at the Trident while he's at it? Or at least harass on the march south. Also, how many men did Stannis have at Storm's End? a few thousand? How many reachmen were laying siege to the castle? 60,000, plus the Redwynne fleet in the bay? If Aerys was even remotely interested in saving himself and his city, don't you think he would have ordered even a third of Mace's army back to KL once Rhaegar fell?

Sorry, Rossart has no army, no lands, nothing but a title. Rossart cannot order Tywin to do anything, especially when it comes to deploying the Lannister army. See what I mean by misperception? On paper, sure, the hand outranks a lord. But the lord who commands an army and has been tasked with defending the city will issue his own orders, especially one like Tywin. Tywin is also just as likely to ignore orders from the king, just like he ignored the ravens telling him to march with Rhaegar. All Tywin needs is a little time to get his men in position, and since that looks pretty much like deploying them to defend the city, there is no reason at all for Aerys to start micromanaging. There is also no evidence that Aerys communicated with Tywin in any way, and all the evidence points to he and Rossart focused solely on the wildfire plan and waiting for the last possible moment to set it off. Aerys would have preferred Ned was there as well, but you can't have everything.

Jaime has it point blank that Aerys ordered him to kill his father only after Lannister men were spotted within the walls. So at that point, Jaime knew who was knocking on the gates.

I don't know where you're getting Ned as a blundering idiot, but clearly you think Tywin is. He obviously doesn't have the sense to capitalize on open gates and a welcoming populace to simply march his men across the city, he'd rather fight across miles of hostile urban environment instead -- instantly removing all doubt in Aerys' mind as to his loyalty and guaranteeing Jaime roasted in his armor. An instant attack at the gates would also pit a few hundred soldiers against thousands of gold cloaks and these tens of thousands of targ loyalists that are mentioned nowhere in the book, while the rest of his army trickles inside a few hundred men at a time. And even if he did take the city in this way, it would result in maximum casualties to Tywin's own army, weakening his bargaining position in the post-war peace negotiations. And since he would simply have to turn over the city to Robert anyway, he ends up sacrificing his own power for nothing.

Like I said, you are almost there on much of this, you just have to imagine the key players making the right decisions to achieve their goals and objectives, not the most abject foolish ones.

Same with Rhaegar. You have him marching north to a do-or-die, winner-take-all battle with Robert, and yet he leaves 10,000 fighters back in King's Landing? That's a good quarter of his army, equal to the Dornish contingent. And he would do this to defend the city? Why, when 30,000 reachmen are within a three-day's march from the capital?

Sorry, I just can't see how anyone could take seriously a scenario where everyone is trying their damnest to lose their armies, lose the war and lose their heads.

 

 

[Britannia Pacificatrix]

On 14/03/2016 at 11:32 PM, The Wolves said:

I would and will continue to do so. 

Hes disgusting in every possible way. I don't know what you consider evil but Tywin is defiantly that in my book. 

Horses for courses. You do, while I don't.

On 15/03/2016 at 0:20 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

In fairness evil is a subjective term, what you consider Evil others may not and vice versa.

This I agree with 100%.

[Britannia Pacificatrix]

On 15/03/2016 at 1:43 PM, John Doe said:

Never trust someone with a Stark avatar/username to give a correct assestment of Tywin's character. 

Haha, very true.