The entire Tower of Joy account does not make sense

[MtnLion]

26 minutes ago, tugela said:

He must have told at least some people. Remember, one of his companions (I forget the name) had a widow who was bitter that Ned brought back his horse, but not his bones. Since she was super pissed off, you would think that she would have demanded and received some sort of explanation at the time. Given her anger, and the hatred she has decades later, I think she was not drinking Ned's cool aid on the matter.

You must be referring to Lady Barbrey Dustin.  The funny thing is that she apparently never addressed anything with Ned regarding the supposed slight, and she has every reason in the world to convince Ramsay's spy that she despises the Starks.  From my perspective, her tirade is every bit as suspect as Maester Yandel's history.  Find something to corroborate it, before accepting anything approximating reality. 

[ErasmusF]

12 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

I think what you have to remember is that its not supposed to be clear to begin with.  Now people can correct me if I'm wrong, but we only know of the tower of joy story from Ned's fever dreams.  We don't have a clear cut account of it from him or anyone else for that matter.  I don't think there is anything wrong with three of your Kings Guard, two of whom are arguably the best swordsmen in all of Westeros protecting a prisoner in a tower out in the desert.  There are a lot of unknowns with the entire story, and I'm sure it will become clearer as the next two books come out. 

 

This. Hell we can barely get half of the facts straight and make sense of what people do in modern times. People thinking that there is a strict rule book for what the Kingsguard were and weren't supposed to do need to check themselves. Or perhaps read Arys Oakheart's chapter in AFfC. Or take the shows word, "Our Prince wanted us here."

They were just men, doing what they thought was right. They understand that succession is a tricky matter. That's the whole point of AGoT. It's a recurring theme. Do you think Dany is just going to step aside if she finds out Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son and that he and Lyanna were married in front of a Heart tree on the Isle of Faces? 

[MtnLion]

13 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

Do you think Dany is just going to step aside if she finds out Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son and that he and Lyanna were married in front of a Heart tree on the Isle of Faces? 

Yes, that has been foreshadowed.  In literature a "stone" is something that is hidden.  In DwD Daenerys sees the grass bowing low to Drogon, and a stone (Jon as the hidden dragon) forces her painfully to her knee.  Daenerys won't be passive, but she will be forced to accept it. 

[kimim]

44 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

You must be referring to Lady Barbrey Dustin.  The funny thing is that she apparently never addressed anything with Ned regarding the supposed slight, and she has every reason in the world to convince Ramsay's spy that she despises the Starks.  From my perspective, her tirade is every bit as suspect as Maester Yandel's history.  Find something to corroborate it, before accepting anything approximating reality. 

Ned's dream mentions that he buried the bodies by the toj instead of bringing the bones home. Dustin says that Ned buried her husband "beneath the red mountains of Dorne," and failed to bring his bones home. Her account thus corroborates one weird part of Ned's dream. Place of burial means something to Ned, which is why he carries Lyanna home. He also brings Dustin's horse back to his wife, and Dawn back to Starfall. Why, then, doesn't he bring the bones home?

 

 

[MtnLion]

15 minutes ago, kimim said:

Ned's dream mentions that he buried the bodies by the toj instead of bringing the bones home. Dustin says that Ned buried her husband "beneath the red mountains of Dorne," and failed to bring his bones home. Her account thus corroborates one weird part of Ned's dream. Place of burial means something to Ned, which is why he carries Lyanna home. He also brings Dustin's horse back to his wife, and Dawn back to Starfall. Why, then, doesn't he bring the bones home?

Does anyone suggest that he should?  It certainly appears that Ned had plenty of time to do so, if it had been requested.  We need to operate under the assumption that it was never requested, for the reason that Ned did not return the bones.  As suggested, Barbrey is playing a mummer's game with Theon. 

[ErasmusF]

1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

Yes, that has been foreshadowed.  In literature a "stone" is something that is hidden.  In DwD Daenerys sees the grass bowing low to Drogon, and a stone (Jon as the hidden dragon) forces her painfully to her knee.  Daenerys won't be passive, but she will be forced to accept it. 

I think we're in agreement, then. Dany won't just step aside, she'll be forced to. 

[MtnLion]

6 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

I think we're in agreement, then. Dany won't just step aside, she'll be forced to. 

The stone (hidden dragon) turns under her foot, forcing her painfully to her knee.  That tells me she will resist, and that she will suffer because she does.  Bran will figure prominently, because if there is a trump card to dragons, it is Bran. 

[kimim]

41 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Does anyone suggest that he should?  It certainly appears that Ned had plenty of time to do so, if it had been requested.  We need to operate under the assumption that it was never requested, for the reason that Ned did not return the bones.  As suggested, Barbrey is playing a mummer's game with Theon. 

Northerners seem to want their bones back:

Ned sends Lady's bones north.

Robb asks that Ned's bones, and the bones of those who died in Ned's service be sent back up North.

Maybe this is a Stark fetish, instead of a Northern thing. However, Starks represent the North and northern tradition. They want their dead back home. Barbrey says that she wanted her husband's bones. I think that Ned was expected to bring northern bones back to their northern homes. He does not. Why doesn't he?

 

[MtnLion]

22 minutes ago, kimim said:

Northerners seem to want their bones back:

Ned sends Lady's bones north.

Robb asks that Ned's bones, and the bones of those who died in Ned's service be sent back up North.

Maybe this is a Stark fetish, instead of a Northern thing. However, Starks represent the North and northern tradition. They want their dead back home. Barbrey says that she wanted her husband's bones. I think that Ned was expected to bring northern bones back to their northern homes. He does not. Why doesn't he?

 

Stark family does.  Look at when Lord Dustin left for the war, with Ned.  It is his choice, he did not need to go, and he only promised to return on his horse. 

Truly Barbrey's complaint lacks any merit, at all.  If she is so outraged, why didn't she tell Ned?  If she told Ned, what prevented him from taking care of her complaint?  It simply tells us that she has no such grievance, and that her talk with Theon is so much wind. 

[Rippounet]

 

15 hours ago, MtnLion said:

There must be a reason that Ned still holds all of these men in high honor, years later, and that can only be if they gave their lives, at the tower of joy, for their king.  Nothing else makes sense. 

Nothing else? This again?

18 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Nor, can the "as it had been in life" be excused as a fever or drug induced delusion.   

The text is far more ambiguous than you suggest:

Quote

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

From the start, it's difficult to know what "as it had been in life" refers to exactly. I read it as meaning that the numbers were accurate and that the rest of the dream should be taken with a pinch of salt. Martin confirmed that this version is correct.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that I don't think it's wrong to say that the KG's presence at the ToJ prove that Jon is legitimate. I just don't think the assumptions you make based on the exchange between Ned and the KG are enough to state it as fact. Nor do I think the exchange itself should be used to prove anthing for that matter, since Martin said himself that the content of the dream should be taken with caution.

18 hours ago, MtnLion said:

"Our dreams" does not equal Ned's dream.

Are you serious? This is one of the most unambiguous SSMs there is...

15 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Stark family does.  Look at when Lord Dustin left for the war, with Ned.  It is his choice, he did not need to go, and he only promised to return on his horse. 

Truly Barbrey's complaint lacks any merit, at all.  If she is so outraged, why didn't she tell Ned?  If she told Ned, what prevented him from taking care of her complaint?  It simply tells us that she has no such grievance, and that her talk with Theon is so much wind. 

This is tricky. I actually tend to agree with you that Barbrey's complaint is suspicious. But it doesn't change kimim's point that she uses it as her explanation to betray the Starks. Within earshot of Bolton and/or Bolton men. Obviously if the complaint was completely ludicrous, the other Northerners would realize right away.

So no, it is odd that Ned left those bones down south. At any rate, Barbrey's complaint certainly makes us think so.

[purple-eyes]

18 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Stark family does.  Look at when Lord Dustin left for the war, with Ned.  It is his choice, he did not need to go, and he only promised to return on his horse. 

Truly Barbrey's complaint lacks any merit, at all.  If she is so outraged, why didn't she tell Ned?  If she told Ned, what prevented him from taking care of her complaint?  It simply tells us that she has no such grievance, and that her talk with Theon is so much wind. 

excuse me? 

look at what you said here. 

"it is his choice, he did not need to go, he only promised to return on his horse". 

he went to the war shortly after his marriage. what man would happily run to a bloody war in honeymoon? stark is his liege lord. he has no choice. and he promised his bride he will be back, which actually give more reason that ned should send his bones to his wife because this man wants to go back to see his wife, ok? 

do you work? do you have a boss? when you are angry with your boss, do you just go ahead tell your boss "hey, i am angry! why did not you do xxxxx for me? i hate you!" maybe you are this bold. but most of the people are not. 

i mean, lady dustin wants her husband's bones back. this is not wrong at all. 

 

[MtnLion]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Martin confirmed that this version is correct.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Are you serious? This is one of the most unambiguous SSMs there is...

In your dreams, perhaps.  Read his answer again, and notice that he does not refer to that dream in his answer but "our" dreams.  GRRM subtly shifted the subject from Ned's dream to our dreams.  So, he is not saying that your version is correct, unless you are dreaming it.  It makes sense that there was more to the dialog, in life.  But the essence to understand the exchange is preserved in the dream that Ned has had before.  Drugs and fever are therefore not contributors. 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Anyway, I'd like to point out that I don't think it's wrong to say that the KG's presence at the ToJ prove that Jon is legitimate. I just don't think the assumptions you make based on the exchange between Ned and the KG are enough to state it as fact.

I am stating it from Ned's perspective.  I read the entire dialog from the perspective of each position.  The one that matters is Ned's. because it has a deep meaning to him.  Therefore, to interpret the dream one must define the dialog with Ned's understanding of the dialog.  It is very, very clear that Ned believes that the Kingsguard are guarding an heir with a better claim than Viserys. 

[MtnLion]

58 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

he went to the war shortly after his marriage. what man would happily run to a bloody war in honeymoon?

Lord Dustin did, and the exchange went that he could send a younger man in his place, but he insisted that he go, promising Barbrey that he would return on his horse. 

[tugela]

22 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Yes, that has been foreshadowed.  In literature a "stone" is something that is hidden.  In DwD Daenerys sees the grass bowing low to Drogon, and a stone (Jon as the hidden dragon) forces her painfully to her knee.  Daenerys won't be passive, but she will be forced to accept it. 

Stone dragon, as in a bastard named Stone?

There is one bastard in the books whose parents are vague, namely Mya Stone. She has a recollection of a man (presumably her father) as a very young child throwing her in the air and her trusting him absolutely. And then one day he was just gone. As a result she no longer trusts men to be there for her.

[tugela]

21 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Does anyone suggest that he should?  It certainly appears that Ned had plenty of time to do so, if it had been requested.  We need to operate under the assumption that it was never requested, for the reason that Ned did not return the bones.  As suggested, Barbrey is playing a mummer's game with Theon. 

She doesn't really need to as Theon at that point is regarded as being on the same level as the hounds. She does go down to inspect the crypts however, so there is potentially something of interest to her down there, and it isn't Theon himself. The only reason she took him was so that she would have a guide who knew the place.

[tugela]

1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

In your dreams, perhaps.  Read his answer again, and notice that he does not refer to that dream in his answer but "our" dreams.  GRRM subtly shifted the subject from Ned's dream to our dreams.  So, he is not saying that your version is correct, unless you are dreaming it.  It makes sense that there was more to the dialog, in life.  But the essence to understand the exchange is preserved in the dream that Ned has had before.  Drugs and fever are therefore not contributors. 

I am stating it from Ned's perspective.  I read the entire dialog from the perspective of each position.  The one that matters is Ned's. because it has a deep meaning to him.  Therefore, to interpret the dream one must define the dialog with Ned's understanding of the dialog.  It is very, very clear that Ned believes that the Kingsguard are guarding an heir with a better claim than Viserys. 

If it was a child with Lyanna (or Ashara), it would not matter because such a child would be a bastard. Bastards, even if legitimized, do not go ahead of trueborn heirs. Rhaegar and his father were both dead, there would be no mechanism to legitimize the child, and it would mean that Viserys would be the true heir. Viserys himself was not king because he was not crowned, Instead Robert was.

[MtnLion]

40 minutes ago, tugela said:

If it was a child with Lyanna (or Ashara), it would not matter because such a child would be a bastard. Bastards, even if legitimized, do not go ahead of trueborn heirs. Rhaegar and his father were both dead, there would be no mechanism to legitimize the child, and it would mean that Viserys would be the true heir. Viserys himself was not king because he was not crowned, Instead Robert was.

Rhaegar and Lyanna got married, and the evidence for us, as readers, is clear in Ned's dream.  Jon was born as a true heir.  His family name is Targaryen.  Being Rhaegar's son, he has a better claim than Viserys to the Iron Throne. 

[MtnLion]

53 minutes ago, tugela said:

She doesn't really need to as Theon at that point is regarded as being on the same level as the hounds. She does go down to inspect the crypts however, so there is potentially something of interest to her down there, and it isn't Theon himself. The only reason she took him was so that she would have a guide who knew the place.

My question was related to Ned.  Does anyone suggest to Ned that he should retrieve Lord Dustin's bones from Dorne to appease Barbrey Dustin?  There is no support in Ned's thoughts for Lady Dustin's rant.  If it truly had been a problem for her, while Ned was alive, It seems that Ned would have done something to appease her.  That makes Lady Dustin's speech to Theon more like a mummer's farce than a true grievance. 

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

Stone dragon, as in a bastard named Stone?

There is one bastard in the books whose parents are vague, namely Mya Stone. She has a recollection of a man (presumably her father) as a very young child throwing her in the air and her trusting him absolutely. And then one day he was just gone. As a result she no longer trusts men to be there for her.

Mya Stone was Robert's first bastard, born in the Vale, and Ned had held her as an infant before Lyanna's betrothal announcement, at Winterfell. 

But, I was referring to the stone that turns under Daenerys' foot, forcing her painfully to a knee, as the grass bows low to Drogon, the dragon.  In literature something that is hidden is referred to as a "stone".  In this case it appears that Jon Taragaryen is the hidden dragon that symbolically forces Dany to take a knee to the dragon.  Jon is the Dragon that Daenerys will eventually yield to.  She will resist, and be forced, painfully to accept her status. 

This will eventually become an "Easter Egg" for the reader who rereads the series.  Like the "kings hiding under the snow.  Snow, Ned."  GRRM's editor has remarked on his methods, where he will subtly hint, less subtly hint, and not so subtly relay information to his readers. 

[No One of Importance]

On 6/2/2016 at 6:16 AM, joluoto2 said:

 

The first thing I'd like to Point out is that the ToJ is a hideout. Rhaegar definitely went there to hide. This fits well with the theory that something Went terribly wrong when Lyanna was "kidnapped". Brandon found out within days, it seems, I doubt Rhaegar wanted the news to spread. So I think something went terribly wrong and Rhaegar went to the tower to hide.

Another thing that doesn't make much sense is how well hidden the tower was. Lord Commander Hightower spent days looking for it. If it was that seclusive it create loads of more questions. Where did they find the staff for the tower? If they recruited commoners in nearby villages, the tower should be much easier to find, since servants talk, and their friends and family in said villages would probably know all about the tower. But if the tower wasn't staffed by locals, who was staffing it (and don't come with a stupid: It wasn't staffed answer. It's the tower of the Prince, of course it was staffed).

And if it was so seclusive, how fast did news travel. We can assume no ravens flew there, so news wouldn't come directly from King's Landing by raven. When did Rhaegar learn all that happened? Did he know before the Lord Commander arrived to fetch him, or did Hightower bring the news? And if news only could arrive by messenger and the place was so seclusive, how much did the Kingsguard members there know about the war when Ned & co arrived? Did they know about the Trident? The fall of King's Landing? Viserys on Dragonstone? The fall of Storm's End? Just how much could possibly have gotten there if we are to believe Rhaegar didn't know what was going on before Hightower arrived. But then again, what if Rhaegar had known the entire time? Then things get much more interesting. Why didn't he leave to fight before Hightower arrived?

 

And of course the 3 KGs at the tower. What's their function in the story. No matter how you spin it, their presence there doesn't make much sense.

I agree that they ended up at the tower because something went wrong.  My best guess (emphasize: guess) is that Lyanna's pregnancy forced an end to travel.

I'm not sure that the tower was particularly well-hidden, but rather that it was anonymous.  "We're in a watchtower in the Dornish mountains."  "Oh, which one?  Because there are literally hundreds of them and they all look the same."  We're used to thinking of it as "The Tower of Joy," but that was a title that Rhaegar gave it, not an existing moniker by which it would be known.  In terms of staff, as you note, Rhaegar was the prince, and therefore would not be traveling alone.  It could certainly be staffed by whatever people (serving-folk, attendants, etc.) were already with him.

The dialogue in Ned's dream is very ambiguous about what the Kingsguard already knew.  Either they already knew about each of these events as Ned lists them, or they refuse to be rattled by the news.  I lean towards the former, though by what means, I couldn't say.  All of that, of course, is with the caveat that this is Ned's dream.  The dialog itself has almost a singsong quality to it, with each of Ned's lines more like a verse than normal speech.

The entire dream is contained in about two pages of text, with the only mention in the entire series of "the tower of joy" coming a page later.  What is most striking to me is the last line of the dream: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."  Who else do we know with striking blue eyes and an association with death?  Hmm.

If I strap on my tinfoil hat, I'd speculate that not only did something more - and more sinister - happen at the tower, but that it was of Ned's own doing.  That a momentary lapse of his honor led to something horrifyingly tragic - perhaps killing his sister himself?  Perhaps this is why Ned lives the rest of his life stressing his honor?  Perhaps this is why his children seem to be cursed?  Pure speculation, of course, but fun nonetheless.