Sansa, Sandor, and Littlefinger

[Karmarni]

1 hour ago, permaximum said:

1. Do you need confirmation for everything? At that point it's obvious where LF stands and she knew LF was close to Ned. Catelyn could learn it from thousands of miles away but you say somehow Sansa didn't. It's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. If you need confirmation for everything you'll be very disappointed with the Show.

2. I didn't read the books. Not even a single line.

3. You don't understand what you see then. Pulls a knife to push him back because just after her husband died and LF's role in it he suggested they could be together thanks to Ned's death and grabs her from her arm.

4. You're twisting everything. Sometimes things are so simple and you use too many would, could, might etc.

She 100% knows LF's part in Ned's capture just like probably more than half of the King's Landing and considerable amount of people in Westeros know it already. Catelyn learned it while she was travelign with an army somewhere far away form KL for god's sake.

I'm certain their rule will end. White Walkers, Mad King and (very soon) Cersei's horrible effect on the people, The Faith militants and Baelish together are too much.

It can't be argued both ways. First off either we're going to have confirmation for everything, or we're not. If it's confirmed, it's simple. If it's not confirmed it's open to argument. In this case, Sansa never knows about Littlefinger betraying Ned. If she did, she wouldn't have trusted him. The show went out of it's way, made an entire scene with Ros and Shae talking and saying LF was not to be trusted, watch Sansa with him. Shae said she always would. So, here are LF and Sansa talking, and they're talking behind his back so the viewer KNOWS that LF is not to be trusted with Sansa. Sansa, though, doesn't know that.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-BvhKgzQA

Catelyn was incredibly pissed off at LF in the scene I linked. He's trying to hit on her while delivering her beloved dead husband's bones!! My god, she hated him and who wouldn't????

If the noble rule ends in Westeros, it's chaos, and that's just what Littlefinger wanted isn't it? To step in and be "king of the ashes" as Varys puts it. He's still a high lord. It's still a feudal system. There is nothing at all that is there to replace it.

So if it goes, the feudal system, that is, it will be anarchy. And since GRRM has said it will be a "bittersweet" ending, I can guarantee that someone will be there, picking up the pieces and establishing a government of some sort ---- and since there has only been the Faith militant trying to take over, and no other suggestion of a type of government (and we sure know that the High Sparrow is going to go down, it seems inevitable on the show - but if he doesn't he's going to be in charge and that will be more like a papacy) then the feudal system will continue, under the nobles.

And frankly, though we've had the old guard removed, the new guard that's in it's place (Jon, Dany, Tyrion with Arya, Sansa and Bran) they all are noble and were raised in that system. They know no other and won't establish any other. From a grand bird's eye view, there simply isn't time left to institute a new political system. And I'm saying all this, with only show information - no book information.

[permaximum]

2 hours ago, Karmarni said:

It can't be argued both ways. First off either we're going to have confirmation for everything, or we're not. If it's confirmed, it's simple. If it's not confirmed it's open to argument. In this case, Sansa never knows about Littlefinger betraying Ned. If she did, she wouldn't have trusted him. The show went out of it's way, made an entire scene with Ros and Shae talking and saying LF was not to be trusted, watch Sansa with him. Shae said she always would. So, here are LF and Sansa talking, and they're talking behind his back so the viewer KNOWS that LF is not to be trusted with Sansa. Sansa, though, doesn't know that.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-BvhKgzQA

Catelyn was incredibly pissed off at LF in the scene I linked. He's trying to hit on her while delivering her beloved dead husband's bones!! My god, she hated him and who wouldn't????

If the noble rule ends in Westeros, it's chaos, and that's just what Littlefinger wanted isn't it? To step in and be "king of the ashes" as Varys puts it. He's still a high lord. It's still a feudal system. There is nothing at all that is there to replace it.

So if it goes, the feudal system, that is, it will be anarchy. And since GRRM has said it will be a "bittersweet" ending, I can guarantee that someone will be there, picking up the pieces and establishing a government of some sort ---- and since there has only been the Faith militant trying to take over, and no other suggestion of a type of government (and we sure know that the High Sparrow is going to go down, it seems inevitable on the show - but if he doesn't he's going to be in charge and that will be more like a papacy) then the feudal system will continue, under the nobles.

And frankly, though we've had the old guard removed, the new guard that's in it's place (Jon, Dany, Tyrion with Arya, Sansa and Bran) they all are noble and were raised in that system. They know no other and won't establish any other. From a grand bird's eye view, there simply isn't time left to institute a new political system. And I'm saying all this, with only show information - no book information.

But it goes both ways anyhow. There are confirmations and there are lots of metaphors, hints, cues in the soundtracks, scenes and motifs. In this case it's not even that subtle. When Baelish steps into Catelyn's tent he immediately says "You may have heard false reports". This is a good delivery from the writers' part that Littlefinger's involvement in Ned's fall was somehow common knowledge in the Westeros already.

As for the Cat and LF scene, you just repeated what I said. Cat got really pissed because of Baelish's showing of his unbelievable obsession. As for his betrayel on Ned, she got disappointed and bitter and that was all. Their conversation focused on the Lannisters as the third party instead of what LF did... And indeed Littlefinger tried to save Ned. Just like Renly and to some extent perhaps Varys tried to warn him too in that episode. But when it came to risking their own trajectories, none of them would do that and none did. Ned's stubborn honor and refusal to take LF and Renly's offers cost him his life.

I guess after learning what happened, Cat realized LF would not save Ned by risking even a little bit of what he's got just becuse of his love for her. That's why she probably didn't try to kill LF because of his involvement but instead she focused her attention solely on the Lannisters.

I don't think any remaining main character will want to establish a government in the Westeros which s/he can rule. "The Wheel" Dany talked about last season will definetely be broken.

[caravaggio]

So... nothing in any way shape or form that shows Sansa had any idea about LF's betrayal in the show.

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, caravaggio said:

So... nothing in any way shape or form that shows Sansa had any idea about LF's betrayal in the show.

Well, Cat didn't and it was even less likely for her to know... and look how did it turn out. But since we watched that scene and LF's assumption that she knew it already at that point of the story regardless of her whereabouts , we can presume Sansa knows it. And because of the exact reasons Cat had, on top of LF's help Sansa got throughout the series along with her part on Ned's capture, she didn't even make a big deal about it. Cat seemed to make a big deal about it but it wasn't big enough for her to consider killing him. In Sansa's case it's not even worth to mention it.

There won't even be a grand reveal of LF's part in Ned's capture in the future. If you're waiting for it you'll be disappointed. However, some main characters will possibly get a grand reveal about the fact that Littlefinger's behind almost everything that's been happening since Robert's rebellion.

[caravaggio]

12 minutes ago, permaximum said:

Well, Cat didn't and it was even less likely for her to know... and look how did it turn out. But since we watched that scene and LF's assumption that she knew it already at that point of the story regardless of her whereabouts , we can presume Sansa knows it. And because of the exact reasons Cat had, on top of LF's help Sansa got throughout the series along with her part on Ned's capture, she didn't even make a big deal about it. Cat seemed to make a big deal about it but it wasn't big enough for her to consider killing him. In Sansa's case it's not even worth to mention it.

There won't even be a grand reveal of LF's part in Ned's capture in the future. If you're waiting for it you'll be disappointed. However, some main characters will possibly get a grand reveal about the fact that Littlefinger's behind almost everything that's been happening since Robert's rebellion.

What scene where LF assumes Sansa knows he betrayed Ned?

 

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, caravaggio said:

What scene where LF assumes Sansa knows he betrayed Ned?

 

I meant Cat. If LF assumed Cat who was at thousands of miles away from KL knew he betrayed Ned, then it's easy to guess he would assume Sansa knows it already.

[caravaggio]

2 minutes ago, permaximum said:

I meant Cat. If LF assumed Cat who was at thousands of miles away from KL knew he betrayed Ned, then it's easy to guess he would assume Sansa knows it already.

Everything you are hanging your arguments on revolves around LF visiting Cat when she was in Renly's camp (a scene that isn't in the books). The show teleported LF there so he could get more screen time and so they could show that LF had been plotting with the Tyrells (which is shown in the book in different ways). In that show scene, Cat is pissed because she trusted LF to help Ned, not because she thinks he killed Ned. That whole part of the show is also bad writing.

 

Meanwhile, as you stated, there is no scene where it is implied Sansa knows LF betrayed her father. She doesn't know. She never would have followed him if she did. There is no proof hinted or otherwise that she had the slightest inkling that LF betrayed Ned.

 

If you want to disagree with my theory that in the show Sandor will be the one to let her in on this, that is fine, but if you think it won't happen because Sansa already knows, that is nonsensical.

[permaximum]

2 hours ago, caravaggio said:

Everything you are hanging your arguments on revolves around LF visiting Cat when she was in Renly's camp (a scene that isn't in the books). The show teleported LF there so he could get more screen time and so they could show that LF had been plotting with the Tyrells (which is shown in the book in different ways). In that show scene, Cat is pissed because she trusted LF to help Ned, not because she thinks he killed Ned. That whole part of the show is also bad writing.

 

Meanwhile, as you stated, there is no scene where it is implied Sansa knows LF betrayed her father. She doesn't know. She never would have followed him if she did. There is no proof hinted or otherwise that she had the slightest inkling that LF betrayed Ned.

 

If you want to disagree with my theory that in the show Sandor will be the one to let her in on this, that is fine, but if you think it won't happen because Sansa already knows, that is nonsensical.

You would have said the same thing about Cat too if I said this before the fourth episode of season 2. You blamed the bad writing.

You'll again blame the bad writing when you realize nothing will happen in the next episodes about LF's involvement in Ned's capture.

 

[Karmarni]

We can debate back and forth forever on what Sansa does or doesn't know. But ultimately, Sansa is going to kill someone. Tyrion calls it out when he says that Sansa hasn't killed yet. So who are the likely suspects? Ummmmmmmm. Littlefinger. That's just about it. Who else has the potential to piss her off enough to kill him or her?

 

[Chib]

LF will be fine at least this season I think, because Sansa will reward him by not telling people about him selling her to Ramsay. About next season, I am not sure. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa knows that LF framed her for Joff's murder and it is sorta unbelievable that she has not yet figured out that he must have been somewhat involved with her father's downfall since he rose in titles and rank, all by the graces of the incest traitor Lannisters. Sansa is not the brightest candle in the Cathedral on this show.

Also, show Sansa now is saying, within her "explainatioin" to Lady Mormont, that she married Ramsay to "survive", which inplicates LF for forcing her to Winterfell and marrying Ramsay against her will. He already "owes"s her so whatever "reward" he gets may not or at least should not be what he "wants".

She should have him killed while she can. Can she not realize that he had an army at Moat Cailin, not to save her but to take the North and not for someone else? that meeting in Mole's Town was him "inquiring" as to how she feels about him after this and from his point of view, she could have him killed by telling Sweet Robin or Lord Royce. If Sweet Robin comes with the Army, he will most likely die. Royce is against LF so he is as good as dead as well. Sansa is most unwise to keep info reg LF from Jon and his advisers because she ought to know he will betray anyone and everyone to get what he wants.

[website error]

On 6/18/2016 at 9:42 AM, RhaeBee said:

Some discussions in other threads  too have been touching on this (maybe based on Reddit too, but not sure of that). 

To me personally the first part of the sentence makes sense. Sandor travels North, meets Sansa and upon finding her with Littlefinger, he spills about Ned. Sure, why not. 

But then Sansa murders him for this? Lord Baelish, thanks for arranging my escape from King's Landing as well as the death of Joffrey who tormented me for years. Thanks for saving me from my crazy aunt who tried to murder me and thanks for brining your army to win my battle for me to make up for being an idiot and unknowingly giving me to a psychopath. Thanks for all that, but see you did  betray my father so I'll just chop off your head while your armed forces station outside the castle you retook for me. 

Surely LF is destinied for a grand downfall and betraying Ned will come around and the remaining Starks will have a role in his downfall, but I don't suppose it's either the time or the place to kill LF right after he saves them. If he does.

Co-sign. I don't think Littlefinger's character is going to get bigger going forward. He has always been a catalyst for other characters. The destruction of KL will change a lot of things for LF. Really, the show could just unplug Littlefinger, have him sit on a horse and nod benignly like tonight. I could see the show coming back over Varys' negative assessment of LF's character...or just not. Certainly LF is not going to become a big thing in relation to Dany.

I'm not sure how much responsibility for Ned's death LF really bears, but in terms of someone finding that out and responding, Arya mighty get that assignment

[Attitude]

On 17-6-2016 at 8:36 PM, caravaggio said:

I wrote this over on reddit and some people seemed to like it, so I thought I'd see if anyone saw this as a possibility here:

Sandor travels north and reunites with Sansa. When Sandor sees that Littlefinger is Sansa's new protector he informs her that Littlefinger is responsible for her father's capture and ultimate death. Sandor/Sansa kill Littlefinger.

I could see the reuniting part happen as well as Sandor telling Sansa the truth about LF. However I don't see a instant LF death happening. Probably Sansa will struggle with this decision (Jon will probably be involved too). 

Who knows, maybe they will use LF to unite the 7 kingdoms' armys to fight the WW (since he has secrets about pretty much all of them).