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About Karmarni

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  1. I love this! And this novel. Cannot count how many times I have been stimulated and irritated in love. At the same time. It’s these moments that keep it all interesting.
  2. I like what you’re saying here. I’ve often thought about “whether you will it or no”. I like the strong feelings idea. This was an early moment between them that seems to foreshadow what happened the night of Blackwater. It also begs the question, what about when she wills it? Because the story is progressing, in Sandor’s absence, with Sansa coming to realize that it is the Hound that she is willing to be with. She becomes accustomed to the idea of kissing him since she thinks about it often. She dreams about him, she wonders what happened to him; she obviously cares about him. She prayed for him. She wondered if she should have gone with him. It seems that the story is set up for her to recount these things to him when she sees him again. In classic romances, the two characters spend a chunk of time apart. In the beginning they are unsuitable or dislike each other. The non-POV is the character who is massaging the perpective (or plot) of the POV character. This change is at the heart of the story. The growth that happens, for better or worse, leads to the eventual dénouement showing how and why the POV character needed this growth. And that, in romances, leads to the reconciliation of the two characters and their love recognized by them. Without this massaging in the beginning, and the time apart, the characters, ironically, would not have grown ‘close’.
  3. “Do you remember where the heart is?” Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark represent the ‘love song’ of A Song of Ice and Fire. Theirs is an enduring relationship that begins from Sansa’s first chapter. Their interactions highlight where the heart is. Do we remember, in such a sprawling story, that there is a heart to it? The songs and stories of future generations are being written by the characters in this generation. And I do believe that Sansa and Sandor will be glorified in a love song. Sansa’s favorite song and story is that of Florian and Jonquil. She liked the kissing stories best, says Bran. Sansa’s narrative is about marriage. From the beginning, to the latest (as of this posting) Alayne I sample The Winds of Winter chapter, it has been marriage as the important plot points for Sansa. Her betrothal to Joffrey brought her south; her forced marriage to Tyrion kept her in King’s Landing to be used by Littlefinger to facilitate killing Joffrey. Once in the clutches of Littlefinger, she is poised to be married by him to Harrold Hardyng. Will she marry him, submit yet again to a husband picked out for her by someone else? I doubt it - that blood and fire stained cloak in her cedar chest says otherwise. So does her singing a song that hopes for a "better day" and a "kinder way." Sansa, like Beauty (wonderfully outlined above by Le Cygne), will make her own choice in marriage. And I have no doubt there will be a third cloak of Sandor Clegane’s.
  4. Karmarni

    Discussing Sansa XXVII: Northern ways...

    Yeah, that about sums up that Sansa has learned nothing and the show is incredibly inconsistent at this point on characterization. Example: then she goes on to say she learned from Cersei. What has Cersei actually done in their time together except force her to write a letter to Robb outing herself as a traitor to her family, say love your children and there is power between a woman's legs? Cersei didn't help out with Joff or constrain him. Cersei kept Sansa as a prisoner and then watched as she was forced to marry Tyrion. Bet Cersei got a good laugh at that one. Cersei happily watched when Sansa was replaced by Margaery as queen-to-be. Cersei obviously enjoyed messing with Sansa'a expectations. So what, did Sansa learn about Cersei and her blow my enemies sky high scheme? She's respectful of that? Does she think Cersei would give away Houses to Johnny come lately loyalists at the expense of centuries old ties? Doubtful the show has that much depth and it wasn't conveyed at all. No, it was left open-ended. What's that mean on this show? It means that it's a blank to be filled in later. Cersei <---> Sansa. Not a parallel, but a conflict. What's Cersei think of Sansa? We found out, she calls her a whore. She thinks she killed Joff. She wants her dead. She told that to Littlefinger. What's LF know about? That letter she wrote to Robb. What's LF's method? Chaos, conflict, reap the benefits.
  5. Karmarni

    Do Sansa and Jon know Arya was with The Hound?

    My bets on Podrick. But plot holes in the show are the size of the Grand Canyon at this point.
  6. Karmarni

    Do Sansa and Jon know Arya was with The Hound?

    No, Jon and Sansa do not know Arya was with Sandor. The show has set up this reveal Sandor asked Arya in S03 to ask Sansa, if she ever saw her again, who came back for her (in the KL riots). Then in S06 the "a man" came up, show still withholding on Sansa. Then here in S07, LF mentions the Hound. Sansa reacts with her side glance and she still can't know. Why do the writers bring it up again? One, two, three - first time you might not notice, second time gets you wondering, third mention everyone should notice (classic story repetition) - so yeah, Sansa and Jon (and LF) have no idea. Arya is setup as the one to tell Sansa and
  7. Karmarni

    Sandor and Tyrion

    The stories are all progressive. Built on who the characters are at the outset and the circumstances they face as they continue. To say that a character could have been this, or could have been that is like saying those circumstances never happened. To turn back the clock. And that won't and can't happen. Personally, I don't try to read into the story and try to assign how I think they should feel or think based on more than what I see written in the story. To do so leads to conjecture that GRRM plans all these things down to the very last detail. And I don't think he does. The story gets lost in the analysis. Sansa's thoughts on Loras are part of the hallmark of her naivete. They take up very, very little in the novel and expanding upon them is at the expense of the character who has been with her, in body or thought, from AGOT. Certainly the emphasis is on Sandor, not Loras. As for the ages, all that's water under the bridge. That's been done to death on these boards. And all I can say is, I don't use that for or against. GRRM shouldn't have made them so low if he was going to have them do the things they do/did. So the ages are no account to me. But he sure did marry her off to Tyrion to potentially be raped.
  8. Karmarni

    Sandor and Tyrion

    That's a pretty extreme 'parallel' that you're drawing there, don't you think? Sandor would be Rorge if not for the Elder Brother 's therapy? Basing this on Sandor's own helm being stolen and hair color and disfigured face and reference to dogs? Does that have anything at all to do with Sandor's character that we've learned of throughout the story? I don't buy it. Sandor Clegane was never going to be the mass rapist that Rorge was. The stolen helm, Rorge's raping at Saltpans, this is all a plot mechanism for GRRM. It's not meant to say that since Sandor Clegane called himself a butcher, Septon Maribald said broken men turn bad, add Thoros' thoughts on the helm, stir, bake for an hour and Sandor is on his way to going full mad dog --- no, that's his brother. For saying that Sandor Clegane is a favorite character, well, that's a pretty harsh way of showing it.
  9. Karmarni

    Sandor and Tyrion

    I DO think Rorge was "always bad". By that I mean from the beginning of the story. Backstory only counts for me when given within the actual story, the author's words as written. So Rorge is 'bad' from the get-go. My statement about overplay - really, it's meant to address the tendency to bring psychoanalysis, affective and behavioral science to literature. And GRRM is not James Joyce, he's a fantasy novel writer. Simple, close reading is all that's required to understand the story. So Loras is the Knight of Flowers, the pretty knight who cheats in the tourney. He's duplicitous; he's hiding his relationship with Renley. Sansa likes him in AGOT, and yet he's not who he seems to be. She's learns that he's "not into her." And as for the topic, I think the relationship between Tyrion and Sandor has changed from one of mutual sarcastic ribbing, based on their respective positions in society in general and in their place within the Lannister's circle in particular, to one of pure hatred on Sandor's side, based on Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.
  10. Karmarni

    Sandor and Tyrion

    Sandor is not a nihilist. I see him as a cynic. Nihilism goes too far for what I perceive as his ideology. Though I think he'd never think that way, as having an "ideology.' Cynic is a better fit. He was 'burned' by life, and his initial idealism is now tinged by that experience. His view of knights and so-called honorable men fits with that. He's not all out saying life is meaningless, and he acts in complete opposite of that, in fact. As for becoming Rorge, no. That's not an accurate reading of the text, in my opinion. Rorge is and was bad from the beginning of the story. It was only a matter of time before we saw what he was capable of. But applying a one-dimensional character's personality/events to another character, one who has more of a role in the story, is looking at it through a narrow lens. Sandor was not a rapist. He did not in any part of the story show that he intended to rape anyone, especially Sansa. I see posts that say this and I think they apply too much emphasis to what Sandor says to Arya. As if what he says there is the gods-honest truth and he is not full of regret, woe, and attempting to piss Arya off. That's what's important to me. Sandor's regret in regards to Sansa. What he says, and how he says it, has always be shaded with a dangerous element. Sandor lives a dangerous life, amidst Lannisters who have great regard for his brother, while he has none. He has learned to say the right thing, obviously. So to apply Sandor's words to his previous actions is a mistake. The actions themselves should be parsed by the words that are used at the time. And Sansa would know, she's the one who's telling us. And she believes he meant to kiss her. That he is dangerous is a given. But he has not shown himself by his actions to be dangerous to her. He has shown himself to be protective, to adore her. So when she says "please don't kill me", it's because this is a dangerous man that she has tried to understand, and failed, at some points in the story, to fully comprehend. It is later, lying awake in bed, thinking of him, that she understands. She understands his intent to take her with him, she understands his fear of fire and what he must have faced on the battlefield that night. She understands his well-disguised fear of his brother too. Of course, the outcome of all this is that Sansa has decided that Sandor did, indeed, kiss her that night. It is how she chooses to summarize the events in her head. That she wished she had gone with him, that she had kissed him, is what is being insinuated. I agree with @Le Cygne, overplaying Loras in Sansa's story is again looking at it with a narrow lens from the narrow end. That's out of proportion. Loras is the 'knightly' knight, the pretty boy (who isn't knightly or pretty anymore, or so says the story), but Sandor is the one she gives the 'kiss' to. He's the one she wishes for. Overplaying Loras results in failing to see the glamour, yes, glamour, that is Sandor Clegane's love for Sansa Stark.
  11. Karmarni

    Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

    I think this is especially true. It isn't that women might do it better, that doesn't seem to be the point being made. It's that there needs to be an opportunity for women's view, the Female Gaze, to be seen. Outlander does a good job of that. GoT is all about the male gaze, and that's a problem for me. It's catering to a sexist view of women. Not having women involved, at every level, has resulted in a deficit of the female gaze. And it's not just showing a butt or penis, it's HOW you look at a man that shows he's desirable. GoT doesn't get that right at all. And women and men provide different views, experiences, that make a show or book or whatever art form, great. It's their je ne sais quoi that matters.
  12. Brienne was present when Sansa confronted LF and told her that Ramsay beat her and that he cut her. Jon, well, he probably doesn't know, but you think he'd ask about LF and the Vale (how she know him, what's up with him, etc.), since they did arrive so wonderfully on time to help out. Also, for what it's worth, she never discussed with him how she left KL as far as I can remember. I honestly don't understand the show character of Sansa. She's all over the map. I think book Sansa will kill "one day." Just not like show Sansa has.
  13. Yes. And Ramsay on the show locked up Sansa Stark. He didn't let her out and continued to abuse her, as she tells Littlefinger in Episode 5, "The Door." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nK-WPx01Xk Why the show didn't have others in Winterfell recognize this is a glaring omission. They should have addressed this. Brienne lets Littlefinger walk around after hearing what he did to Sansa. So does Jon. It's once again the loophole the show has allowed itself to justify Sansa going to Winterfell in Jeyne Poole's place. It's idiotic and makes no sense. And it's irresponsible on the show's part to have a major character like Sansa Stark abused in this manner and then to think that showing her having her abuser killed by dogs, smirking about it, is a prudent decision. Having her say it will all be forgotten. Sure, that's what the showrunners want to have happen, for it all to go away. However, they made a poor decision to not have her rapes and abuse addressed in a rational, truly cathartic way. Sansa likely will be a killer one day. But Ramsay Bolton is not going to be on her 'list.'
  14. No way! Too much focus? A further depth than the books? Fully brought to life? I'm gobsmacked. That's tantamount to saying this sophomoric-humored show has some kind of deeper insight into the characters than the books' author. I 100% disagree. The books are far more in-depth, the characterization richer, you can see INTO THEIR MINDS, what could be better? An actor smirking at the screen? An actor failing to even miss his/her direwolf? An actor telling stupid jokes that fall flat? An actor going on about the morality of killing beetles? As to the OP, some of the sets are pretty.
  15. Karmarni

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Sure. Being a knight or not does not preclude owning property. If Gregor died intestate, with no wife and no kids, Sandor would be next to inherit.