Springwatch Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, YOVMO said: That quote is the one that is giving me the most trouble. I will be honest, it is a huge issue. Catelyn distinctly says that Kings Landing will be great for sansa and she will finally have someone to teach her high harp where she couldn't find someone at winterfell, but then we have this quote that you link. I am not ready to put an idea out there with that one. I think I can tie every other darn thing up into at least a cohesive theory with a little more work, but this one is freaking killing me. I suppose Sansa might only have had a few lessons at Winterfell? But this kind of apparently clumsy writing always makes me think that grrm is aiming for some symbolism or foreshadowing. I don't see it yet, but I'm sure it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Springwatch said: I suppose Sansa might only have had a few lessons at Winterfell? But this kind of apparently clumsy writing always makes me think that grrm is aiming for some symbolism or foreshadowing. I don't see it yet, but I'm sure it's there. Yeah, I am hesitant to say that sansa just had a few lessons. That seems like lazy tin foil. You know, the non Reynolds brand that never quite sits right. I tend to agree that when George is clumsy it is often for a reason. I believe it is there, but I haven't found it yet. If I don't find it I will try to contextualize everything and leave it out there as an addendum and maybe someone else will see it. Fresh eyes never hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter prince Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 12 minutes ago, Springwatch said: I suppose Sansa might only have had a few lessons at Winterfell? But this kind of apparently clumsy writing always makes me think that grrm is aiming for some symbolism or foreshadowing. I don't see it yet, but I'm sure it's there. I think it's also important to remember the unreliable narrator. Does Arya know the difference between harps? Is she just on a tangent because she's being a moody kid in that moment? GRRM could be "clumsy" or could be giving a realistic look that things are different from different POVs and people don't always remember things correctly and/or are mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 These two instruments are probably very similar in their principle functions. Like the difference between a violin and a contrabass. The instruments look different but they function in very similar ways. I was also able to teach myself how to play the piano, based on my knowledge of the guitar. They looks very different, but the notes are laid out in the same way. Most of my friends that learned on piano, pick up the guitar and just figure it out after a while. It's not hard to imagine that if someone knew how to play one of these instruments, given some time to practice they could learn the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter prince Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 48 minutes ago, Mooz said: My gripe with this is that if Mance=Rhaegar, then why on earth would he allow such a defining trait of his to be so publicly known? I just don't see how it adds up with Mance's backstory either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 On 9/20/2016 at 1:31 PM, YOVMO said: That quote is the one that is giving me the most trouble. I will be honest, it is a huge issue. Catelyn distinctly says that Kings Landing will be great for sansa and she will finally have someone to teach her high harp where she couldn't find someone at winterfell, but then we have this quote that you link. I am not ready to put an idea out there with that one. I think I can tie every other darn thing up into at least a cohesive theory with a little more work, but this one is freaking killing me. Regarding Sansa's ability to play the high harp (or not), it's not that big a deal. There are a few possibilities. One, Martin "nodded", as did Homer. He writes one thing in one place and contradicts it elsewhere. Another, Arya's recollection of Sansa playing the high harp may be off a bit. She's like 9 years old, and resentful of her older sister's talents. Sansa may be able to coax a tune from the harp without formal training while Catelyn wants her to learn to play properly from a real teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 26 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said: She's like 9 years old, and resentful of her older sister's talents. Sansa may be able to coax a tune from the harp without formal training while Catelyn wants her to learn to play properly from a real teacher. This is currently my number one go to for an answer to that question. I don't like how lose it is though. I wish I had something more concrete. but yes, this is what I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 4 hours ago, YOVMO said: This is currently my number one go to for an answer to that question. I don't like how lose it is though. I wish I had something more concrete. but yes, this is what I think I prefer to think that Martin was careless. He does that a lot. Wildings shooting arrows to the top of the 800 foot tall Wall with enough residual energy to kill? Sandor leaving King's Landing with 40K golden dragons in his baggage? Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 17 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said: I prefer to think that Martin was careless. He does that a lot. Wildings shooting arrows to the top of the 800 foot tall Wall with enough residual energy to kill? Sandor leaving King's Landing with 40K golden dragons in his baggage? Etc. the Sandor's magical baggie was pretty awesome. It was very d&d. I can believe it was just an error. The problem is, when I am making a tinfoil claim like "high harp is a special instrument only played by nobility so the fact that there is an unnamed person on the QI playing high harp and also at winterfell during the feast for king Robert has huge significance I don't want to just throw out a "btw that one time when grrm writes something that totally f'n contradicts one of my major arguments he was just mistaken because that does much more damage to my idea (which I really believe) than anything else. If I can't find a way to actually resolve it I will put it as a foot note and just own that this idea is damaging but it may be carelessness or the fact hat arya was just a punky jealous kid....so at least I am not dishonest or hiding from it EDIT: When I say d&d I mean dungeons and dragons, not the halfwits who write the HBO show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Well, if it's intended as tinfoil you can stretch stuff a bit, but meseems there's a fresh crop of posters who seriously weave plotlines from moonbeams and gossamer, and it's not easy to differentiate their work from gentle spoofery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 We've got a name for the harper at Ned's feast for Robert; this is Mance talking to Jon in ASOS: Quote "... The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea..." This Orland is one of those middling characters - not nameless like some random harper, not front of stage like the fools are. He has a name and appears in multiple scenes, but shows no sign of doing anything outside his role as a high harpist. I think the harp is the focus here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I expect the two Tully daughters would have had harp lessons at Riverrun, as would most high-born young ladies expected to marry into high-born houses. We don't know much about Septa Mordane, but she could have been from a high-born household and would have had some training in music as well as sewing and other ladylike pursuits. So Sansa could have had lessons from Catelyn and/or Septa Mordane, but showed some natural talent that exceeded their ability to teach her. So Arya was right that Sansa already played the high harp and Catelyn wished that Sansa could take her studies farther with a proper teacher. There is something sinister, though, in some of this harp and singer motif. A singer tries to rape Sansa and is playing the wood harp at Lysa's request when Lysa tries to kill Sansa. (The song is about a lady sewing in her garden, for what that's worth.) Maybe Catelyn's wish for harp lessons for Sansa is an ironic hint about Catelyn's naivete about what is in store for Sansa when she leaves Winterfell. Arya, on the other hand, single-handedly kills the singer Dareon. No problem with creepy singers for Stark daughter #2. I realize you see a distinction between these specific harp mentions and singers in general, and I suspect GRRM is making a deliberate distinction, too. I will look forward to reading your expanded essay. Will you address the Harpy and Sons of the Harpy in your essay? My wordplay radar never quits, and I suspect there is some kind of connection between the mysterious Harpy in Dany's story line and the function of the harps in Westeros. (And I can't help but wonder about "harps" and "sharp." Arya gets a sharp sword, Sansa gets harps. . . ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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