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OtherFromAnotherMother

Bran's vision of Jon in Bran III, GoT

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Bran's coma dream contains many visions. Several are straight forward and easy to see. Other visions didn't make sense until we had the rest of the books. 

Bran's vision of Jon at the wall is often brought up as evidence of prophetic abilities from Bran. It is believed by many that Bran is seeing Jon's stabbing at the end of DwD. I am not arguing against Bran's prophetic abilities. I am arguing that his vision of Jon at the wall is not one of them. He is seeing Jon as he is right now. 

Let's look at the text. 

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Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

The first part is obvious. Bran is seeing the wall.

Note that Bran sees the wall as "shining like blue crystal". This is the same way Jon sees it in Jon's next chapter following Bran's. 

Quote

The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

In the stabbing chapter the wall is white: 

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He glanced up past the King’s Tower. The Wall was a dull white, the sky above it whiter. A snow sky.

The next part, "Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memorty of all warmth fled from him" is trickier. 

Many who attribute this vision to Jon's stabbing use this line because Ghost is not with Jon when he is stabbed, which is true. However, we see Jon describing himself as "alone" in the next Jon chapter following Bran's.

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Jon followed the rest back to the armory, walking alone. He often walked alone here.

 

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If he must be alone, he would make solitude his armor.

Jon thinks of himself as alone. Even though Ghost is with him, he is stil alone.

Jon also thinks on how much he hates the people at the wall. 

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The more time he spent with them, the more Jon despised them.

 

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There were almost twenty in the group he trained with, yet not one he could call a friend.

 

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Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world.

He also misses his family.

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He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.

Talking with Noye:

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“I don’t care,” Jon said. “I don’t care about them and I don’t care about you or Thorne or Benjen Stark or any of it. I hate it here. It’s too … it’s cold.”

I think we can agree that Jon feels very much alone during the time of Bran's dream. This is what Bran is seeing. 

The next part, "in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

We have this in the same Jon chapter:

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Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

Seems oddly similar, right? Jon remembers the warmth of the warm water running through the walls at Winterfell. But not here. 

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So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man’s body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

I think the wall coloring is the strongest point. But the rest applies as well. Jon's whole chapter following Bran's dream is filled with him being cold and alone. I think Bran is seeing Jon a more "real time" version, rather than seeing the future stabbing incident. 

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Yes, I agree.  He is surveying the land in Westeros and Essos.  Seeing or being shown various people and places.  It could be argued that when he passes through the curtain of light that he has broken through the veil of time and sees a future event at that point. 

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15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree.  He is surveying the land in Westeros and Essos.  Seeing or being shown various people and places.  It could be argued that when he passes through the curtain of light that he has broken through the veil of time and sees a future event at that point. 

Actually, the Undead Gregor vision happens before the curtain. 

Quote

Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

 

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3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Actually, the Undead Gregor vision happens before the curtain. 

 

It does, but in association with Arya, Sansa and Ned in real times.  A bit of premonition perhaps, shadows looming over them but their identity is veiled from Bran and green dream-ish.

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19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It does, but in association with Arya, Sansa and Ned in real times.  A bit of premonition perhaps, shadows looming over them but their identity is veiled from Bran and green dream-ish.

I totally agree. I was going to add some of these ideas to my OP but it would have been way too long. I'll get into it later! I like where your head is at!

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree.  He is surveying the land in Westeros and Essos.  Seeing or being shown various people and places.  It could be argued that when he passes through the curtain of light that he has broken through the veil of time and sees a future event at that point. 

I think I know what you were saying now. Sorry for the confusion earlier. The text:

Quote

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

I think what you are saying is that Bran witnesses something, probably end of the world-ish, that happens in the future.  Is that what you meant?

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It does, but in association with Arya, Sansa and Ned in real times.  A bit of premonition perhaps, shadows looming over them but their identity is veiled from Bran and green dream-ish.

Bran sees Luwin, Robb, Hodor, Catelyn, Ned, Sansa, and Arya in "real time" visions.  The "storm" Catelyn is heading into is a future event. "Storm" is ambiguous and figurative.  Descriptions of the Cleganes and Oberyn (I know some think its Jaime, either way it doesn't effect the idea) are also ambiguous and figurative.  The ambiguous and figurative events/figures could be seen as prophetic while Bran's family (also Luwin, Hodor) are seen in "real time".  

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother
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6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think I know what you were saying now. Sorry for the confusion earlier. The text:

I think what you are saying is that Bran witnesses something, probably end of the world-ish, that happens in the future.  Is that what you meant?

Yes, that is how I interpret that vision.  It's akin to 'touching the light'; something that Dany must also do at some point.  IMO Bran is unbound by time.  This is demonstrated when he looks at him himself and wonders if he was always that thin in conjunction with the Winterfell Wierwood looking at itself in the pond and glances at Bran with a knowing look.   Bran does not yet know that he will be wed to the tree and be able to view the world from above.  This is both a present and future manifestation of Bran.  Present Bran doesn't recognize future Bran in the Weirwood tree; while Tree-Bran recognizes himself in the past.   

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3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Bran sees Luwin, Robb, Hodor, Catelyn, Ned, Sansa, and Arya in "real time" visions.  The "storm" Catelyn is heading into is a future event. "Storm" is ambiguous and figurative.  Descriptions of the Cleganes and Oberyn (I know some think its Jaime, either way it doesn't affect the idea) are also ambiguous and figurative.  The ambiguous and figurative events/figures could be seen as prophetic while Bran's family (also Luwin, Hodor) are seen in "real time".  

I think most of it is in real time with a mixture of premonition.  The storm that nobody else can yet see; is too far off on the horizon.  Bran is using the god's eye or moon's eye view.  He isn't seeing things from the view of a crow or an eagle.  He's too high up for that since he can see across entire contents.   

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think most of it is in real time with a mixture of premonition.  The storm that nobody else can yet see; is too far off on the horizon.  Bran is using the god's eye or moon's eye view.  He isn't seeing things from the view of a crow or an eagle.  He's too high up for that since he can see across entire contents.   

But there is no actual "storm" to be seen. That is why I think this part is a bit prophetic.  He sees trouble ahead for Cat but it is not a storm in the literal sense.  It is the situation she is going to get herself in by listening to LF about the dagger then arresting Tyrion.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother
added last sentence

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22 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think I know what you were saying now. Sorry for the confusion earlier. The text:

I think what you are saying is that Bran witnesses something, probably end of the world-ish, that happens in the future.  Is that what you meant?

I hate to interrupt, but I always took it as this as well because Bran looks into the distance and sees something terrifying, then we get the line Winter is coming, and at the very end Bran declares his wolf's name is Summer, as in the opposite of what terrified him. But maybe I am simplifying too much???

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Just now, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

But there is no actual "storm" to be seen. That is why I think this part is a bit prophetic.  He sees trouble ahead for Cat but it is not a storm in the literal sense.

There is the storm that will overtake Tyrion.  A hurricane force; something he calls the bar sinister.  But yes, the question is whether or not all these visions are concurrent with each characte'sr timeline.  I think so.  He also sees a dragon in Asshai, that nobody else sees.  It's his vantage point that lets him see things that are not within the visual range of the other characters.  But there is no way to prove that they are concurrent.  :)  

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I hate to interrupt, but I always took it as this as well because Bran looks into the distance and sees something terrifying, then we get the line Winter is coming, and at the very end Bran declares his wolf's name is Summer, as in the opposite of what terrified him. But maybe I am simplifying too much???

I get that feeling as well.  I thought @LynnS was saying something else but I think the three of us are on the same page now.

Do you have any ideas on what he could have seen in this vision? I think it is something to do with the Others and an end of the world-ish thing but beyond that I am stumped.

 

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I hate to interrupt, but I always took it as this as well because Bran looks into the distance and sees something terrifying, then we get the line Winter is coming, and at the very end Bran declares his wolf's name is Summer, as in the opposite of what terrified him. But maybe I am simplifying too much???

It's really open to interpretation.  So I don't know.  I like Ravenous Reader's take that the curtain of light represents the veil of time.  Or touching the light if you like.  He breaks through the veil and sees something that terrifies him, causes him to cry hot tears.  What could it be?

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is the storm that will overtake Tyrion.  A hurricane force; something he calls the bar sinister.  But yes, the question is whether or not all these visions are concurrent with each characte'sr timeline.  I think so.  He also sees a dragon in Asshai, that nobody else sees.  It's his vantage point that lets him see things that are not within the visual range of the other characters.  But there is no way to prove that they are concurrent.  :)  

I believe that in this set of visions GRRM uses figurative language for future events and much clearer language for real time events.  The "storm" is not not to be taken literally, IMO.  It's figurative language to describe the pickle Catelyn is getting herself into.  GRRM is also figurative with the description of Undead Gregor.  When showing Ned, Luwin, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Ned, and Catelyn it is real time, IMO.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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5 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I get that feeling as well.  I thought @LynnS was saying something else but I think the three of us are on the same page now.

Do you have any ideas on what he could have seen in this vision? I think it is something to do with the Others and an end of the world-ish thing but beyond that I am stumped.

 

I also tend to agree with this. Bran could be seeing it as it stands to happen in his realtime, sorta like if no "hero" comes then this is what happens. But then the 3EC gives him that choice to fly or die, and Bran chooses to fly. Bran chooses to become that hero, that knight, he always wanted to be. I really think Bran will be just as critical to save humanity as Jon and maybe Dany are.

Edited by The Fattest Leech
spelling and stuff

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I often wonder if the vision in the heart of winter is "terrible knowledge"; something Bran mentions.  The terrible knowledge of the third eye.  Mirri Maaz Duur talks about the price to be paid for blood magic. And I wonder if the 'price' is terrible knowledge.  Could it be the knowledge of your own death?  Jojen knows the circumstances of his death; the time and place.  That would be terrible knowledge.  

ETA:  However the 3EC crow tells Bran "this is why you must live".

Edited by LynnS

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I often wonder if the vision in the heart of winter is "terrible knowledge"; something Bran mentions.  The terrible knowledge of the third eye.  Mirri Maaz Duur talks about the price to be paid for blood magic. And I wonder if the 'price' is terrible knowledge.  Could it be the knowledge of your own death?  Jojen knows the circumstances of his death; the time and place.  That would be terrible knowledge.  

It would certainly be terrible knowledge.  Interesting idea.  So Bran looked deep into the heart of winter, maybe Jojen "touched" the heart of winter and acquired his terrible knowledge?

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9 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I believe that in this set of visions GRRM uses figurative language for future events and much clearer language for real time events.  The "storm" is not not to be taken literally, IMO.  It's figurative language to describe the pickle Catelyn is getting herself into.  GRRM is also figurative with the description of Undead Gregor.  When showing Ned, Luwin, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Ned, and Catelyn it is real time, IMO.

Yes, everything is layered in meaning.  We have Ned's fever dream of the Storm of Petals as blue as the eyes of death and a storm of swords or war.  And we have Tyrion affected by two storms while crossing the narrow sea. 

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14 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I believe that in this set of visions GRRM uses figurative language for future events and much clearer language for real time events.  The "storm" is not not to be taken literally, IMO.  It's figurative language to describe the pickle Catelyn is getting herself into.  GRRM is also figurative with the description of Undead Gregor.  When showing Ned, Luwin, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Ned, and Catelyn it is real time, IMO.

Yep, I agree. The visions are in real time, but the language choices by the author seem to signify some foreshadowing for the future, I think (;like the storm example for Catelyn you quoted.)

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