Why do the Vale Lord's & Knight care about north exactly?

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

2 hours ago, falcotron said:

No, a vassal is not just anyone who will fight for you, it's someone who has a formal obligation to fight for you, and who holds their land as part of the same agreement that obligates them.*

House Arryn are not vassals of the Starks. They may be allies, but that's a very different thing.

And the Starks are not greater lords,** they're at the exact same level as the Arryns, both sworn directly to the crown as Lords Paramount of their respective former kingdoms.

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* At least in the developed kind of feudalism they have in Westeros. Before Charlemagne it was a bit different, but that isn't relevant here.

** Of course that changes when Jon is elected King in the North. Especially since most of Robin's vassals seem to have participated in that election. That might even mean that the Vale has been annexed to the North. But still, there hasn't been a commendation ceremony to make Robin a vassal to Jon; the two haven't even talked.

There hasn't been a commendation ceremony for ANY of the vassal houses in GoT, atleast in the television adaption. There isn't a such thing in the first book either. And like the "**" mentions, the Starks are greater lords now, with Jon being the King In The North, and he represents House Stark, and which are exactly Robin's vassals? The majority of the Houses that participated in the "election" if you want to call it that, were previously vassal houses of House Stark when Ned was the KITN and Lord Of Winterfell. So which were Robin's vassal's? Serious question. And since the majority of the representatives of House Arryn participated in the "election" as we saw in Ep. 9 of Season 6, and Season 7 when Jon & Sansa hold court. I would say Littlefinger was the Lord of House Arryn in Robin's absence, and he too was present at the "election" and allowed his supposed men to declare for Jon, but again as we saw in S7, they were always wary of Littlefinger and seeing as they allowed him to be murdered and did nothing, they're loyal to Sansa. IMO, I think House Arryn is a vassal house of the Starks at this point, at least until they decide to show us something different. I'd say as long as Robin believes in Sansa, House Arryn will believe in the Starks as their liege lords. You're right about Robin & Jon at one point being equals, but now Jon is a King, Robin is not. Hopefully in S8 we get more of a clarification of this specific situation.

[Angel Eyes]

On 9/22/2017 at 3:47 AM, Lightning Tiger said:

Seriously, before they showed up help beat Ramsay i was under the impression that Little Finger was running things over there, and yet these days its like Sansa is the Lord of the Vale, abandoned Little Finger ass after she spoke some words.

They are loyal to John Snow King of the north for what reason?

Simple. The Vale holds heavily to honor, it's echoed in the words of House Arryn, "as high as honor". 

[falcotron]

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

There hasn't been a commendation ceremony for ANY of the vassal houses in GoT, atleast in the television adaption.

Sure, but we don't see most of the ceremonies. We don't even know what the KG oath is.

It's very unlikely that someone could just accidentally become vassalized to some other House without saying anything, meeting their new liege, or even knowing they'd done it. That would be a pretty silly way to run a system, because having a legal obligation to prove troops for someone without knowing you have that obligation doesn't do anyone any good.

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

And like the "**" mentions, the Starks are greater lords now, with Jon being the King In The North

First, you said the reason the Arryns fought for the Stark cousins because they were a vassal house to the Starks. Jon wasn't KitN at that point.

Second, you're only a vassal to your own liege, not to everyone with a higher rank than you.  If Dany were to sit in Meereen and declare herself Empress of Dragon's Bay, that wouldn't make every king on the planet her vassals.

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

and which are exactly Robin's vassals? The majority of the Houses that participated in the "election" if you want to call it that, were previously vassal houses of House Stark when Ned was the KITN and Lord Of Winterfell. So which were Robin's vassal's? Serious question.

They're not giving us the names of any minor characters anymore, so Yohn Royce is the only one I can name. But Sansa and other characters continue to talk about "the Vale Lords" all the way up to late S7, and all of those Vale Lords are vassals of the Arryns (or vassals of vassals of the Arryns). Just as the Northern Lords are Stark vassals (or Stark vassals' vassals).

And yes, I'm calling it an election. Whether you're talking about ancient Macedon or medieval Sweden, when a bunch of lords or some other assembly makes someone their king (as opposed to someone inheriting a kingdom, or declaring himself king by right of conquest, etc.), the word for that is election.

And it doesn't matter that the majority of the houses were Northern ones. That doesn't turn the Vale Lords into Northern Lords. The majority of people who voted in California's last election were women; that doesn't make every man in California a woman.

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

And since the majority of the representatives of House Arryn participated in the "election" as we saw in Ep. 9 of Season 6, and Season 7 when Jon & Sansa hold court. I would say Littlefinger was the Lord of House Arryn in Robin's absence

No, that's not how it works. Robin is Lord Arryn, and the Lord of the Eyrie, and the Lord of the Vale. Littlefinger is none of those things. He's not even a member of House Arryn. He may be Robin's de facto regent, and warden, but Robin is still the lord.

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

IMO, I think House Arryn is a vassal house of the Starks at this point, at least until they decide to show us something different. I'd say as long as Robin believes in Sansa, 

Well, if you want to come up with your own meanings for words, like Humpty Dumpty in Lewis Carroll, I guess nobody can stop you.

[jcmontea]

 

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

No, a vassal is not just anyone who will fight for you, it's someone who has a formal obligation to fight for you, and who holds their land as part of the same agreement that obligates them.*

House Arryn are not vassals of the Starks. They may be allies, but that's a very different thing.

And the Starks are not greater lords,** they're at the exact same level as the Arryns, both sworn directly to the crown as Lords Paramount of their respective former kingdoms.

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* At least in the developed kind of feudalism they have in Westeros. Before Charlemagne it was a bit different, but that isn't relevant here.

** Of course that changes when Jon is elected King in the North. Especially since most of Robin's vassals seem to have participated in that election. That might even mean that the Vale has been annexed to the North. But still, there hasn't been a commendation ceremony to make Robin a vassal to Jon; the two haven't even talked.

We never saw Riverlands lords bend the knee to Robb on the show. All we saw was Edmure call him King two seasons later in season 3.

i think the simplest explanation - which is generally the right one with the show - is that the Vale bent the knee to Jon and this was symbolized by Lord Royce screaming King in the North last year and participating in the Winterfell court all season. 

[falcotron]

15 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

i think the simplest explanation - which is generally the right one with the show - is that the Vale bent the knee to Jon and this was symbolized by Lord Royce screaming King in the North last year and participating in the Winterfell court all season. 

After S6, I think it's not really clear exactly what the situation is. Is Royce now Jon's vassal, or has he sworn personal fealty to him without homage and vassalage, or…? I don't know. But it really doesn't matter, because no matter what the answer, Royce is going to do the same thing in any situation that's at all likely to come up in the show. That's why I put that bit in a footnote.*

However, none of those possibilities can be used to explain why the Vale Lords attacked Winterfell for Sansa in the first place. And it certainly wasn't because the Arryns were vassals of the Starks, which is what Rhaego was arguing.

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* And, speaking of footnotes, if something vaguely similar happens in TWoW, I'm sure we will get more of the details explained—just as when we saw Robb take King in the North and King of the Trident as separate titles, name the Blackfish his Warden of the Southern Marches, affirm Hoster Tully as something I can't remember, etc. But none of those details ended up having any effect even in the books, even in Tytos Blackwood's speech to Jaime, much less on the show. So I don't think there was any problem with the show dropping the details then, and I don't think there's any problem with the show being vague again with Jon and the Vale. There's no reason to suspect there's anything implausible going on, so I'm happy to accept what we see.

[jcmontea]

59 minutes ago, falcotron said:

After S6, I think it's not really clear exactly what the situation is. Is Royce now Jon's vassal, or has he sworn personal fealty to him without homage and vassalage, or…? I don't know. But it really doesn't matter, because no matter what the answer, Royce is going to do the same thing in any situation that's at all likely to come up in the show. That's why I put that bit in a footnote.*

However, none of those possibilities can be used to explain why the Vale Lords attacked Winterfell for Sansa in the first place. And it certainly wasn't because the Arryns were vassals of the Starks, which is what Rhaego was arguing.

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* And, speaking of footnotes, if something vaguely similar happens in TWoW, I'm sure we will get more of the details explained—just as when we saw Robb take King in the North and King of the Trident as separate titles, name the Blackfish his Warden of the Southern Marches, affirm Hoster Tully as something I can't remember, etc. But none of those details ended up having any effect even in the books, even in Tytos Blackwood's speech to Jaime, much less on the show. So I don't think there was any problem with the show dropping the details then, and I don't think there's any problem with the show being vague again with Jon and the Vale. There's no reason to suspect there's anything implausible going on, so I'm happy to accept what we see.

For sure. Show gives no details regarding that stuff and as you say it does that because the details at the end of the day are not important for the narrower story it is telling. 

100% Agree. It does not explain why they went North. Someone else mentioned this but I think its as simple as Robin wanting to help his cousin in response to LFs manipulation. Figures like Robin, Royce etc at the end of the day are just plot devices to get things to happen so that events move for the main characters. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

On 9/27/2017 at 0:21 AM, falcotron said:

After S6, I think it's not really clear exactly what the situation is. Is Royce now Jon's vassal, or has he sworn personal fealty to him without homage and vassalage, or…? I don't know. But it really doesn't matter, because no matter what the answer, Royce is going to do the same thing in any situation that's at all likely to come up in the show. That's why I put that bit in a footnote.*

However, none of those possibilities can be used to explain why the Vale Lords attacked Winterfell for Sansa in the first place. And it certainly wasn't because the Arryns were vassals of the Starks, which is what Rhaego was arguing.

---

* And, speaking of footnotes, if something vaguely similar happens in TWoW, I'm sure we will get more of the details explained—just as when we saw Robb take King in the North and King of the Trident as separate titles, name the Blackfish his Warden of the Southern Marches, affirm Hoster Tully as something I can't remember, etc. But none of those details ended up having any effect even in the books, even in Tytos Blackwood's speech to Jaime, much less on the show. So I don't think there was any problem with the show dropping the details then, and I don't think there's any problem with the show being vague again with Jon and the Vale. There's no reason to suspect there's anything implausible going on, so I'm happy to accept what we see.

You're mistaken friend, I was reasoning that that was the reason why they're still in Winterfell, and presumably continuing to fight for them and participate in the courts that the King of the North holds with his other loyal houses. I said that the reason they came to fight for him at the BOTB anyway was because of loyalty to Sansa moreso than Jon, and why they care about the north. Whether it was through Robin or her Tully name. I didn't say anything about a vassal house in my first post answering the topic.

 

And just because I have my own opinions in regards to why I think they're now a vassal house, doesn't mean I'm making up words. I just happen to disagree, however like I said, we do need more clarification on it and I hope that its touched on and cleared up in season 8.

 

And my mistake guys, the word I meant to use was bannermen, not exactly vassal house. 

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The relationship between the North and the Vale is a lot tighter than one would expect because Ned was fostered at the Eyrie; and there is a connection through marriage between the Tullys and Starks - and Lysa is a Tully.