divica Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 So yeah, it is a PJ video. So it will have its ups and downs... As I haven t read a clash of kings in years I would like to know if PJ is taking things out of context (as he does sometimes to better serve his theories) or if what he is saying is actually true (as he also does in some of his vídeos) and the halfhand wanted jon to join the wildlings... And why would qhorin be wiling to sacrífice the life of his team members for jon to succeed? Why would it be so important that a new NW brother with little reputation with stark blood join the wildlings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Ok. I watched it for ya! I was kinda hoping for something new to discuss (it being PJ, and all), but I felt PJ was actually rather reserved based on what I have read about him and the very few PJ videos I have watched (Deeper Dorne ). I felt this was all rather normal and pretty clearly spelled out in the books already. But that is just me I see that this is a Part 1 in an intended series, so with that it is hard to draw a full conclusion, but I think he has a good start... especially with the symbolism that is tied directly to Jon and Jon alone that PJ starts to get into before he cuts the video time off. Sneaky bastard! I think part of the symbolism he is either missing, or will get to later, is the massive importance of Jon actually being a "bear" in addition to a direwolf. Those bear connections are driven in pretty hard with everyone that Jon meets from the beginning of the story to ADWD, and with Jon evolving as a bear himself. I have a nice essay written about this that will be published sometime soon... I promise One thing that I found a tad grating was how PJ kept going on about the "torture" and how no one did it, and they have a torturer, etc... and maybe that will be addressed in Pt 2, but as it is I feel PJ made waaay too much of an issue with it. There were a few other times where I talked to my screen when PJ mentioned a quote or character action and I was like, "duh, it's right there.... ", but then he sorta went back and clarified the scene. So, I guess not too bad, but cannot draw a full conclusion yet. I may watch Pt 2 to see how much his ideas also follow what I had written out myself and what other posters here think. Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Ok. I watched it for ya! I was kinda hoping for something new to discuss (it being PJ, and all), but I felt PJ was actually rather reserved based on what I have read about him and the very few PJ videos I have watched (Deeper Dorne ). I felt this was all rather normal and pretty clearly spelled out in the books already. But that is just me I see that this is a Part 1 in an intended series, so with that it is hard to draw a full conclusion, but I think he has a good start... especially with the symbolism that is tied directly to Jon and Jon alone that PJ starts to get into before he cuts the video time off. Sneaky bastard! I think part of the symbolism he is either missing, or will get to later, is the massive importance of Jon actually being a "bear" in addition to a direwolf. Those bear connections are driven in pretty hard with everyone that Jon meets from the beginning of the story to ADWD, and with Jon evolving as a bear himself. I have a nice essay written about this that will be published sometime soon... I promise One thing that I found a tad grating was how PJ kept going on about the "torture" and how no one did it, and they have a torturer, etc... and maybe that will be addressed in Pt 2, but as it is I feel PJ made waaay too much of an issue with it. There were a few other times where I talked to my screen when PJ mentioned a quote or character action and I was like, "duh, it's right there.... ", but then he sorta went back and clarified the scene. So, I guess not too bad, but cannot draw a full conclusion yet. I may watch Pt 2 to see how much his ideas also follow what I had written out myself and what other posters here think. Thanks for sharing. I think that the idea that qhorin wanted to infiltrate jon into the wildlings instead of actually finding out what the wildlings are after is rather new. Even if we admit that the infiltration was qhorin back up plan and he kept jon with him until the end because of that. Why didn t he torture ygritte or tried to capture one of her companions? It seems like a possible plothole... I don t know when it became common knowledge that mance wanted the horn of winter, but the idea that the first wildling qhorin tortured might have already known is also weird. At least he should know about the army thing no? On the whole is there a reason for qhorin not to try to capture wildlings? If the entire group attacked the wildlings by the fire they would probably be able to capture all of them and extract info... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, divica said: I think that the idea that qhorin wanted to infiltrate jon into the wildlings instead of actually finding out what the wildlings are after is rather new. I really do not mean to sound rude, but this is not actually a new idea, and I do encourage the newer posters here to talk about Qhorin. There have been theories posted about it that range in ideas. As I mentioned, a while ago I wrote and essay up about these same events and I also drew a similar conclusion that PJ seems to be building towards, and that did include the seeming fact that Qhorin knows who and what Jon is and what type of "destiny" (for lack of a better word while I pick and sort through my fleece of wool) and Qhorin knows Jon needs to go into the deep north. Qhorin says he knows what Jon's movememts and decisions would be and in doing so Qhorin learns all he needs to about Jon. Qhorin seems to know he is just playing a part to get Jon to where he needs to go. The life of one against the survival of many. Quote Even if we admit that the infiltration was qhorin back up plan and he kept jon with him until the end because of that. Why didn t he torture ygritte or tried to capture one of her companions? It seems like a possible plothole... It may seem like a plothole until you realize that it was a reader distraction idea of sort. A slight of hand by the author. We readers are focusing on the knife, and not the magicians hands. The books are laced with these reader distractions. Arianne is another distraction. When you read the name Arianne, what is the first thing that you picture in your minds eye? Quote I don t know when it became common knowledge that mance wanted the horn of winter, but the idea that the first wildling qhorin tortured might have already known is also weird. At least he should know about the army thing no? On the whole is there a reason for qhorin not to try to capture wildlings? If the entire group attacked the wildlings by the fire they would probably be able to capture all of them and extract info... Yes, but when Qhorin met Jon and saw this Stark boy with a direwolf and Qhorin knows about wights and the movement of the free folk and all of this together, Qhorin's mission changed and he knew a ruby necklace was in his future. Qhorin and Jon didn't have to kill and torture everyone. Qhorin had to get Jon where Jon needed to be. Who knows what PJ comes up with next? I can't say that I know, but I just hope he does not over-complicate this mission of Qhorin's because it served its purpose and helped move the Jon-cub into the right plot direction to Jon-bear man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I really do not mean to sound rude, but this is not actually a new idea. There have been theories posted about it that range in ideas. As I mentioned, a while ago I wrote and essay up about these same events and I also drew a similar conclusion that PJ seems to be building towards, and that did include the seeming fact that Qhorin knows who and what Jon is and what type of "destiny" (for lack of a better word while I pick and sort through my fleece of wool) and Qhorin knows Jon needs to go into the deep north. Qhorin says he knows what Jon's movememts and decisions would be and in doing so Qhorin learns all he needs to about Jon. Qhorin seems to know he is just playing a part to get Jon to where he needs to go. The life of one against the survival of many. It may seem like a plothole until you realize that it was a reader distraction idea of sort. A slight of hand by the author. We readers are focusing on the knife, and not the magicians hands. The books are laced with these reader distractions. Arianne is another distraction. When you read the name Arianne, what is the first thing that you picture in your minds eye? Yes, but when Qhorin met Jon and saw this Stark boy with a direwolf and Qhorin knows about wights and the movement of the free folk and all of this together, Qhorin's mission changed and he knew a ruby necklace was in his future. Qhorin and Jon didn't have to kill and torture everyone. Qhorin had to get Jon where Jon needed to be. Who knows what PJ comes up with next? I can't say that I know, but I just hope he does not over-complicate this mission of Qhorin's because it served its purpose and helped move the Jon-cub into the right plot direction to Jon-bear man. But do you see the level of insight qhorin would need to have? Lets be clear and cal things by their names. For qhorin jon is the link between wildlings and northerns with his stark ancestry and warg ability. So qhorin assumes that by delivering jon to the wildlings he will form enough conections to become someone important. In adition, he assumes he will become someone important in the watch. Most possibly Lord comander in a short period of time because the wildlings aren t waiting around. And that jon will use all this to integrate the wildlings into the north. If this turns out to be true I would love to see one of qhorin missing rangers turn up and say that joon is acomplishing qhorin's true objective in that mission. The man desserves credit! If the WW hadn t interfered we might have 100K wildlings safely across the Wall thanks to him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, divica said: But do you see the level of insight qhorin would need to have? Lets be clear and cal things by their names. For qhorin jon is the link between wildlings and northerns with his stark ancestry and warg ability. So qhorin assumes that by delivering jon to the wildlings he will form enough conections to become someone important. In adition, he assumes he will become someone important in the watch. Most possibly Lord comander in a short period of time because the wildlings aren t waiting around. Oh, no doubt. I agree and I will even push it a tad further and say that Qhorin did not stop his thoughts as Jon just being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but Lord Commander of all those involved in trying to save humanity. Jon Stark, King of Winter. "By night all cloaks are black...." means way more than just the NW brothers are going to be involved and they will need a leader. 6 minutes ago, divica said: And that jon will use all this to integrate the wildlings into the north. Jon and Val together. 6 minutes ago, divica said: If this turns out to be true I would love to see one of qhorin missing rangers turn up and say that joon is acomplishing qhorin's true objective in that mission. The man desserves credit! If the WW hadn t interfered we might have 100K wildlings safely across the Wall thanks to him! I am totally with you here. This has been the basis of many a Qhorin appreciation thread. Qhorin was truly loyal to the realms of men. To Qhorin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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