Michael Jon Snow Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Number of seasons would depend on how fast paced the last few books are. If the show is successful, the opportunity to extend the show an additional season may not be that bad. Your concern about filling Season 3 is part of why I think bumping Bran, Cat & Jon to Season 2 makes sense. Season 1 ends with Ned’s Death and Season 2 starts with his family finding out about his death. Perhaps the last 5 or 6 chapters from Clash would be bumped back. Also, the RW is closer to 2/3rds of the way thru, when you consider that the last 15% of the pages are appendix and preview chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulofritter Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Zulo - It took me a bit of searching, but I found your episode breakdown here. Let me know if I've got the wrong one. My comments here are that you're not giving us the full description of each chapter that goes into the episode. I think it's a bit easier to pull the opening and closing scenes... trying to figure out what happens in the balance of the episode causes more problems, as I discovered when I tried laying it all out. Bookends are easier, no doubt. I'd like to change chapter order as little as possible, even if this means some disjointed episodes. Moreover, because you're focused on the bookends, the internal consistency is a bit off, even though you otherwise got some nice symmetries. For example, your episode 7 begins with Tyrion V (sky cells), and closes with the first half of Tyrion VI (clansmen). If you look at what goes in the middle (assuming you run straight through, as you give no indications of any changes), you've got: Tyrion V - (Sky cells and admission of guilt) Eddard X - Post-injury wakeup, responsibility for Tyrion's capture Catelyn VII - Tyrion's trial Jon V - Jon speaks to Aemon about Sam's promotion Tyrion VI - first half - Meeting the clansmen The problem is that this episode bounces around too much... and there's no internal consistency of story. Eddard X could theoretically be tied in, as it includes Eddard taking responsibility for Catelyn capturing Tyrion, but is pretty attenuated. Further, the Jon scene seems completely out of place. Finally, it's only 4.5 chapters long, but I'm assuming that you've done the length by page count, so I won't pursue this point. The theme of taking responsibility jumped out at me right away, but I would have to think about it more. I don't have my notes next to me, but we might be able to shift some of Dany's scenes into this episode because of the length, and possibly some other related scenes. I appreciate the effort you put in, Zulo, and you did a good job. However, I still think it's important to have people actually try and do an entire chapter layout of each episode. It really does get you to think about how to put these things together. Well, you've been so thorough that it's likely to influence how the rest of us would organize these episodes. I see more potential for disagreement on the bookends than the unifying themes for each episode, mostly because finding those themes is harder. Everyone - On another note, I'm not willing to simply go with a double-length first episode just to make it easier. I doubt that HBO will take that approach, for reasons I've mentioned previously, so I'm sticking to a straight 12 1-hr episode season. That said, we do *not* need to arrive at some single conclusion. I've come up with a layout I like... and Zulo has come up with one he likes. To all the rest of you, feel free to comment and argue, but also to post your own layouts. Bran's fall could be a good ending... I just prefer not to go that route... it's not that it's provably wrong though, so I"m not arguing with it as an ending... my only problem with it is that I don't like it as much, and I don't think it works out time-wise. If you disagree, build your own season, and show it off. I agree, but I reread the first post and realized that the original intention was to have some agreement. So I'll say what I would do with an overall plan, and go with one of the crowds when the votes come up. I'm guessing the double episode will be more popular if people are more interested in wish fulfilment than in HBO's actual plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 Well, consensus is always nice... I'm just suggesting that we might not *need* consensus to move on from where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jon Snow Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 While the first two episodes might premier together, they will need to be able to be spit into two airings for reruns. It might get a 2 hr time slot for the first run, but it will not on subsequent runs. With only 12 episodes in an 8 month season there will definitely be reruns. ETA Also, HBO only runs commercials at the top of the hour. I haven't seen any 2 hr specials on HBO in a long time, but a 2 hr premier might have a short break in the middle. Don't know what their policy would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antacid Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Yobjascz, I think your episode outlines are a helpful way of looking at the series as a whole, but you've not taken a couple of vital factors into consideration. It's that editing and page count all being equal, chapters are still not going to translate to an amount of screen time proportionate to their page count. Chapters towards the end of the book are almost all payoff compared to ones near the beginning - so they'll take up more time in comparision to their page count. An explosively dramatic chapter like Dany's last, or one with a lot of shocking character drama like Sansa's last, will effectively translate directly to the screen with almost no edits. The main battle scene with Tyrion is a long action sequence, and might easily translate into MORE minutes of screen time than it's page count would suggest - because pure action by it's very nature demands more time. Another significant thing is that many chapters consists of multiple dramatically unrelated scenes. So, it's often not going to be necessary to show the events of a chapter all in one go, or even (sometimes) in the same order as the book. So your chapter outlines are a rough guide at best. Like I said, the only way to know for sure how much script it takes to tell something is to write it. If that's what you mean by moving on from where we are, great! Tysha, To add to caldis' excellent arguing of point, I have another reason why your plan for the opening is bad. By, as you plan, reducing the Others to a flashback from Gared's POV, you're going to damage Jon's story. The whole reason we care about Jon deciding to join the Night's Watch and go to the Wall is that we sense, long in advance, that he's going to come into contact with the Others in some way. And of course he does. Reduce emotional impact of the prologue by making it a short flashback and you reduce the sense of tension with him going to the wall in exact proportion. Does the tiny amount of information conveyed (poorly) by the ToJ scene seem as important next to the dramatic tension behind the story of one of the main characters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jon Snow Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Would the TOJ sequence work as a comercial? Could it be done in 60 seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 Antacid, I'm not going to question your mods to the page/minute system, as there's no way for me to quantify that or make it useful shy of scripting the whole thing... which I, at this point, don't have time for. However, I've been revamping my layouts on a page count system (rather than a chapter system), and the results are different. First off, I'm averaging 7-8 chapters per episode... targeting a 60-minute length. However, this results in 10.5 episodes, as the actual average (by page count) is only about 50 minutes per episode. This takes some re-writing, obviously, to make up some length. One problem, in particular, is that it places Bran's fall right around 54 minutes... right where it should be for the end of an episode... trying to include other material (Tyrion's scene that follows, or Jon's goodbyes) brings the length up to just over an hour. So, the 'Bran's fall' group has some more ammo. However, I'm not sure how to incorporate Tyrion I and Jon II into the next episode... they're just kind of hanging. I'll have to think about that some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 Okay... I apologize in advance for the lousy formatting... it didn't like copying and pasting from Excel, and I don't have the time to do it more correctly. Here's my current breakdown of the episodes, by chapter. The episode number is at the left, followed by the total page count of the episode. I'm assuming that 1pg=1minute of time, and while I expect 60-minute episodes, the total page count only allows for 50-minute averages. So I'm aiming for 50-minute episodes, and we'll either end a few minutes early, or expand the dialogue to match. After the chapter title is the page count for that particular chapter. This is followed by a couple word summary of the chapter, and any notes. In the notes, you might see a "+1" notation... this is to let you know that I've added or subtracted a few pages in the total for this chapter, to account for something noted... In the Prologue, I've added a page to account for an expanded sequence at Castle Black. All page counts are courtesy of Tower of the Hand, the US Paperback edition. I've tried to keep some sort of thematic linkage within episodes, or at least arrange them so that they flow well. Please let me know what you think. Enjoy! Episode 1 10 Prologue 10 Others +1 of Castle Black 16 Bran I 6 Beheading, Direwolves 20 Catelyn I 4 Starks, History, Arryn, Robert 27 Eddard I 7 Robert, Crypts 34 Jon I 7 Feast, Benjen, Tyrion 41 Catelyn II 7 Sex, Lysa, Decisions 47 Arya I 6 Needlework, Jon, Words 54 Bran II 7 Climbing, Thrown Episode 2 4 Tyrion I 4 Reading, Family 8 Jon II 4 Catelyn, Goodbyes 15 Eddard II 7 Riding, Robert, Dany 24 Dany I 9 History, Drogo, Jorah 31 Tyrion II 7 Travel, Jon, Night's Watch 39 Dany II 8 Wedding, Sex 50 Jon III 11 Training, Noye, Thorne Episode 3 11 Sansa I 11 Joffrey, Arya, Attack 16 Eddard III 5 Arya, Lannisters, Lady 26 Eddard IV 10 Arrival, Brothel, Catelyn, Petyr 34 Catelyn III 8 Assassination, Wolves 43 Catelyn IV 9 Sailing, Petyr, Knife 46 Bran III 3 Dream, 3-eyed Crow Episode 4 7 Eddard V 7 Investigations 15 Arya II 8 Needlework, Needle, Syrio 25 Eddard VI 10 Investigations, Gendry 34 Sansa II 9 Tournament 51 Eddard VII 17 Tournament, Ser Hugh Episode 5 9 Dany III 9 Dothraki Sea, Viserys, Pregnant 18 Tyrion III 9 Dinner, Jeor, Jon 26 Jon IV 8 Training, Tarly 35 Bran IV 9 Frustration, Tyrion, Riding 41 Eddard VIII 6 Argument, Resign, Brothel 48 Catelyn V 7 Returning, Tyrion Episode 6 9 Arya III 9 Cats, Treachery 19 Dany IV 10 Vaes Dothrak arrival, Viserys, Jorah 28 Tyrion IV 9 High Road, Bronn 31 Eddard IX 3 Barra, Jaime, Conflict 46 Catelyn VI 15 Vale, Brynden, Eyrie 51 Eddard X 5 Recovery, Handship, the Hunt Episode 7 8 Bran V 8 Riding, Wildlings, Osha 14 Jon V 6 Promotion, Aemon/Sam 26 Tyrion V 12 Sky Cells, Admissions of Guilt 36 Catelyn VII 10 Trial by Combat 45 Dany V 9 Stallion Heart, Viserys Crown 51 Jon VI 6 Vows, Ghost, Hand Episode 8 7 Eddard XI 7 Gregor, Beric 13 Sansa III 6 Beric, Old drunk King 20 Eddard XII 7 Pycelle, Cersei, Godswood 30 Eddard XIII 10 Robert, Baelish, Plotting 35 Eddard XIV 5 Decision, Betrayal, Baelish 44 Arya IV 9 Syrio, Trant, Escape 52 Sansa IV 8 Cersei, Poole, Watching Episode 9 9 Dany VI 9 Assassination, Drogo, Westeros 16 Tyrion VI 7 Tysha, Clansmen 27 Bran VI 11 Banners Called, Robb 35 Tyrion VII 8 Unite with Tywin, War Plans 43 Catelyn VIII 8 Robb, War plans -1 Omit Split Forces Plans 50 Sansa V 7 Beg for Eddard Episode 10 12 Jon VII 12 Wights, Ghost, Fire 19 Eddard XV 7 Varys, Honor, ToJ 31 Jon VII 12 Wights, Ghost, Fire 39 Dany VII 8 Mirri, Drogo injured, healing 49 Arya V 10 Flea Bottom, Beheading, Yoren Episode 11 10 Jon VIII 10 Aemon, Pain, Choice 25 Tyrion VIII 15 Green Fork, Bolton 36 Catelyn IX 11 Freys, Negotiations 42 Catelyn X 6 Whispering Wood, Jaime 52 Jon IX 10 Oaths broken, oaths kept Episode 12 9 Bran VII 9 Dreams, Crypt, Eddard 20 Dany VIII 11 Drogo worse, blood magic 27 Sansa VI 7 Crying, Joffrey, Heads, Sandor 34 Tyrion IX 7 Tywin, Hand 42 Dany IX 8 Results, Rhaego, Drogo, Death 52 Catelyn XI 10 Riverrun, King in the North 60 Dany X 8 Pyre, Blood magic, Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Excellent. Nicely done. I hope you get at least an executive producer credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 I hope you get at least an executive producer credit. Yeah, me too. You'll notice I finally caved on Bran's fall ending episode 1. I'm not thrilled about it, but I know it can work as an ending. More importantly, there's really no other way to do it, as other break points ruin the timing down the road. Oh well, you win some, you lose some. I also really wanted the Jon chapters of his discussion with maester Aemon and his oathbreaking (followed by his return) to flank Eddard's beheading... but couldn't quite get that to work out. I may play with that some more, but this works out okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jon Snow Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Very well done Maester, It would be interesting to storyboard out some of theose episodes to see where they would fall relative to your projected running time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 Okay, did a bit of reworking on the last three episodes... and managed to get the sequence for Episode 11 that I wanted. I like the way that the Aemon discussion on the pain of choice precedes a series of painful choices and their results. Episode 10 12 Jon VII 12 Wights, Ghost, Fire 27 Tyrion VIII 15 Green Fork, Bolton 38 Catelyn IX 11 Freys, Negotiations 44 Catelyn X 6 Whispering Wood, Jaime 52 Dany VII 8 Mirri, Drogo injured, healing Episode 11 10 Jon VIII 10 Aemon, Pain, Choice 17 Eddard XV 7 Varys, Honor, ToJ 28 Dany VIII 11 Drogo worse, blood magic 38 Arya V 10 Flea Bottom, Beheading, Yoren 48 Jon IX 10 Oaths broken, oaths kept Episode 12 9 Bran VII 9 Dreams, Crypt, Eddard 16 Sansa VI 7 Crying, Joffrey, Heads, Sandor 23 Tyrion IX 7 Tywin, Hand 31 Dany IX 8 Results, Rhaego, Drogo, Death 41 Catelyn XI 10 Riverrun, King in the North 49 Dany X 8 Pyre, Blood magic, Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tysha Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Antacid, I agree with everything you said to Maester Y about chapter lengths and how they would translate to the screen, so I'll just say and leave it at that. However, MY I do think your outlines are an excellent starting point for refining and juggling and cutting and I appreciate the effort you've put into them. To add to caldis' excellent arguing of point, I have another reason why your plan for the opening is bad. By, as you plan, reducing the Others to a flashback from Gared's POV, you're going to damage Jon's story. The whole reason we care about Jon deciding to join the Night's Watch and go to the Wall is that we sense, long in advance, that he's going to come into contact with the Others in some way. I think the problem here is that we see the story very differently then because that didn't even occur to me when I read the book! It wasn't any part of the reason I cared and it most definitely was not the 'whole' reason! It was Jon himself who made me care for him, not where he was going. "I think not Greyjoy, this one's mine," had a hell of a lot more of an impact on me than a random undead guy. And you still haven't said how we can get the exposition about the rebellion out before we meet Robert! Have you read the entire thread? There were a lot of different ideas early on with differing degrees of support. Do any of them grab you? Or could you write a scene where the dialogue conveys the information and doesn't sound clunky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antacid Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 You're underestimating the ability of characters to mention things in passing whilst referring to something else. All that's necessary is for (like I said) Eddard to get the letter. Open the scene with him being obviously upset about something. Catelyn comes in and notices, asks him what's wrong. He says he's found out Jon Arryn is dead. Catelyn (who didn't know Jon Arryn) is concerned, but more about the effect it's had on her husband. I really, really wanted to avoid writing parts of scenes out on this board, but they could have dialogue something like this: CATELYN It's been many years since you saw him. NED (sadly) Not since the Rebellion. Had he not called his banners then, my life would have been lost, and King Robert would have never taken his crown... The dialogue isn't cheesy IMO, because Ned is only telling her information as a side effect - in the subtext he's describing why Jon's death has upset him. It doesn't matter that Catelyn knows about the rebellion, because the real reason she's listening is to show she understands. We get what Jon did, the fact that Robert is an Usurper and that there was a Rebellion, in a single dialogue exchange. As a bonus we show that N&C have a good relationship, and it's just two actors in a room so less $$$. Good enough? Re. Jon - not everyone is going to be interested in him purely as a character - a lot of people need a promise of physical jeopardy to keep them engaged. Other people might be interested in him, but more interested in Dany or Eddard or Arya; the looming threat will reduce the liklihood of them sighing and perhaps changing channel when a Jon scene starts, thinking his plot isn't going anywhere. Regardless, his story in the long run is all about the Others, and the prologue is only glimpse of the icy bastards we're going to get for two seasons. It's more important than the Robellion IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tysha Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 The dialogue isn't cheesy, because Ned is only telling her information as a side effect - in the subtext he's describing why Jon's death has upset him. It doesn't matter that Catelyn knows about the rebellion, because she's listening to show she understands. We get what Jon did, the fact that Robert is an Usurper and that there was a Rebellion, in a single dialogue exchange. As a bonus we show that N&C have a good relationship. Plus, it's just two actors in a room so less $$$. Good enough? That still has a flashing neon sign attached to it saying "EXPOSITION ALERT!" Honestly, I would rather have a title card at the beginning explaining the rebellion than try to force it into dialogue where it doesn't belong and doesn't sound organic. It's less interesting but I'd rather have functional than clunky. On Jon ... I think there is more than enough interest there with hands being found in the woods, dead bodies coming back to life and Jon's own, internal struggles! Besides which, I do think we should show the Others, I just don't think we should devote the entirety of the first ten minutes to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antacid Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 So, you're saying my example is inorganic and clunky? You can't imagine two real people talking like that, bringing up memories in an attempt to describe how they feel? You say characters telling each other things they already know is unnatural, but you also said earlier in the thread that a scene with Old Nan telling Bran about the Rebellion would be a "history lesson", even though Bran could be reasonably assumed not to know much about it. What circumstances are required for characters to legitimately talk about information? The Hand isn't found 'til page 522. That's, what, 7 episodes? How do we know the Others have anything to do with dead bodies coming back to life unless we explicitly see it happen at the beginning? Isn't that important information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tysha Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 So, you're saying my example is inorganic and clunky? You can't imagine two real people talking like that, bringing up memories in an attempt to describe how they feel? Woah, calm down, I'm not attacking you, all right? I'm sorry but no, I don't think that example sounded natural. If Ned was talking to someone who didn't live through the war with him then perhaps it would, but in that instance Ned is clearly going into that much detail for the audience's benefit, not Cat's. How do we know the Others have anything to do with dead bodies coming back to life unless we explicitly see it happen at the beginning? Isn't that, I don't know, kind of important information? Didn't I just say I think we need to see the Others at the beginning?! Just not for an extended period of time when we should be getting on with the story about the Starks and the Lannisters. You say characters telling each other things they already know is unnatural, but you also said earlier in the thread that a scene with Old Nan telling Bran about the Rebellion would be a "history lesson", even though Bran could be reasonably assumed not to know much about it. What circumstances are required for characters to legitimately talk about information? You're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting me there. I didn't like the idea of a history lesson because I didn't think it would be entertaining. It would get the information across in an organic way, though it would also be horrendously unsubtle! And are you hideously opposed to the idea of a title card? Because I think it's a viable compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antacid Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 So do you want to show the Others as a flashback, or do you want two prologues? Oh, and Ned didn't 'live though the war' with Catelyn. He impregnated her and went off to fight. She might not actually know all that much about it - there is, after all, a certain specific reason why Ned might be reluctant to go into details. He isn't one to boast about his war achievements anyway. I don't think I'm being pedantic pointing this out. BTW, I know you weren't attacking me. I'm not offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Yobjascz Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 The Hand isn't found 'till page 522. That's, what, 7 episodes? Yup... though the wights don't animate themselves 'till Episode 10 (by my count, at least ) As to the dialogue you wrote, it's pretty good as exposition goes... but it is a bit... well, it doesn't mesh well with how GRRM writes his characters. I agree that there's a way to make the dialogue work, but I'm not sure that those particular words are the right ones. That said, the scene is a bit moody... Ned just beheaded someone, and he's cleaning Ice in a pool of water in the godswood, in front of a heart tree. It's a dark location, and brooding. So that kind of dialogue (bitter memories) fit better there than most other locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antacid Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 That said, the scene is a bit moody... Ned just beheaded someone, and he's cleaning Ice in a pool of water in the godswood, in front of a heart tree. I'd write the scene in Ned's study, kind of toying moodily with the open letter on the desk in front of him. So, his quietly distressed state is obviously a result of something he's read in it before the start of the scene, and when Catelyn comes in she can naturally ask him about it. So the dialogue is obviously a reaction to a visual bit of information - Eddard has had a letter which has upset him. We don't need to know how much time has passed since the beheading. It could happen a day later, or a week later for all it matters. Yep, I really hate posting script excerpts. Hate hate hate. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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