How many marriages does it take to make a good coalition?

[Angel Eyes]

Was Jon Arryn's marriage to Lysa Tully necessary? Would Ned's marriage to Catelyn be enough to cement the Tully's support? Or did Hoster Tully go "you two don't get my men unless you marry both my daughters!"

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Typically that is how negotiations work, you start of by making a big list of stuff you want, and then depending on the answer from the other person, you see where you go from there. 

In this case Hoster Tully wanted House Tully to be connected to both the Warden of the North, and the Warden of the East. Eddard would have accepted regardless since Catelyn was originally going to marry Brandon. Jon Arryn accepted because by this point House Arryn was close to being extinct, so Jon Arryn needed another wife to have more children. 

Even if neither of them were keen on marrying, they were both in a hurry to meet up with Robert, who at this point was on the run after getting defeated by Randyll Tarly, so they probably would have accepted anyway. Hoster essentially pulled the same move that Walder Frey did to Robb. 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

 Jon Arryn accepted because by this point House Arryn was close to being extinct, so Jon Arryn needed another wife to have more children. 

Arryn accepted for the military support, his House had heirs. 

The eldest married Ser Denys Arryn, a distant cousin to the Lords of the Eyrie. There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches 

House Arryn was never in any danger of going extinct (nor is House Stark for that matter). 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Arryn accepted for the military support, his House had heirs. 

The eldest married Ser Denys Arryn, a distant cousin to the Lords of the Eyrie. There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches 

House Arryn was never in any danger of going extinct (nor is House Stark for that matter). 

Sure I also agree that there were a bunch of nobodies that had some distant connection to the Arryn name. But at the point of Jon's marriage to Lysa the only other people alive who had the surname Arryn where Denys, his wife and their son. Denys died literally in the next battle, and then his wife and son died shortly after. 

I understand the whole distant family thing. Once the Targaryens where wiped out Robert Baratheon was pretty close to being next in line to the throne anyway due to his grandmother being a Targaryen, but that doesn't mean I would ever count him as a Targaryen, just like how I'd never count Harrold Hardyng an Arryn, or Arnolf Karstark as a Stark. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, EloImFizzy said:

Sure I also agree that there were a bunch of nobodies that had some distant connection to the Arryn name. But at the point of Jon's marriage to Lysa the only other people alive who had the surname Arryn where Denys, his wife and their son. Denys died literally in the next battle, and then his wife and son died shortly after. 

Denys is one of those 'nobodies' and Jon was perfectly happy with him as his heir, he would have been equally fine with another one of those 'nobodies'. He married Lysa for military support, not because he was unable to find a fertile wife. 

"You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

1 hour ago, EloImFizzy said:

I understand the whole distant family thing. Once the Targaryens where wiped out Robert Baratheon was pretty close to being next in line to the throne anyway due to his grandmother being a Targaryen, but that doesn't mean I would ever count him as a Targaryen, just like how I'd never count Harrold Hardyng an Arryn, or Arnolf Karstark as a Stark. 

Well the difference between these examples is that they are actually Arryns, that is their last name and they are in the line of succession but obviously they now are currently behind the grandson of Jon's younger sister, Harry. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, EloImFizzy said:

Sure I also agree that there were a bunch of nobodies that had some distant connection to the Arryn name. But at the point of Jon's marriage to Lysa the only other people alive who had the surname Arryn where Denys, his wife and their son. Denys died literally in the next battle, and then his wife and son died shortly after. 

I understand the whole distant family thing. Once the Targaryens where wiped out Robert Baratheon was pretty close to being next in line to the throne anyway due to his grandmother being a Targaryen, but that doesn't mean I would ever count him as a Targaryen, just like how I'd never count Harrold Hardyng an Arryn, or Arnolf Karstark as a Stark. 

So that’s why nobody told off Robert that he was a kinslayer for killing Rhaegar?

[Bael's Bastard]

18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was Jon Arryn's marriage to Lysa Tully necessary? Would Ned's marriage to Catelyn be enough to cement the Tully's support? Or did Hoster Tully go "you two don't get my men unless you marry both my daughters!"

Yes, Lord Jon Arryn's marriage to Lysa Tully was necessary to bring Lord Hoster Tully into the war on the side of the rebels, at a time when a wounded Lord Robert Baratheon was being hunted by loyalist forces before the Battle of the Bells.

Jon had raised his banners in revolt after King Aerys executed Elbert Arryn (his heir), Lord Rickard Stark, and Brandon Stark, and demanded that Jon execute his wards Lord Robert Baratheon and the new Lord Eddard Stark.

Ned returned north to gather his forces, while Jon and Robert fought to secure Gulltown from Arryn bannermen that had remained loyal to the Targaryens. Robert then went south to gather his forces, and had to defeat Baratheon bannermen that had remained loyal to the Targaryens at the battles of Summerhall. Robert was wounded in the Battle of Ashford against Targaryen loyalists in the Reach, before going into the Riverlands, and hiding in Stoney Sept, where he was hunted by the Targaryen loyalists.

Through all those months, executions, and battles, Hoster had kept his forces out of the war, until the rebel leaders Ned and Jon agreed to wed his daughters Catelyn and Lysa. The Tully sisters make clear that Jon wed Lysa for Hoster's swords.

ASOS - Catelyn I: "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully." Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth."

ASOS - Sansa VI: "No more than I did," her aunt said. "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live?

ASOS - Sansa VII: That was what my father meant for Petyr. Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn't so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for.

[Bael's Bastard]

20 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Typically that is how negotiations work, you start of by making a big list of stuff you want, and then depending on the answer from the other person, you see where you go from there. 

In this case Hoster Tully wanted House Tully to be connected to both the Warden of the North, and the Warden of the East. Eddard would have accepted regardless since Catelyn was originally going to marry Brandon. Jon Arryn accepted because by this point House Arryn was close to being extinct, so Jon Arryn needed another wife to have more children. 

Even if neither of them were keen on marrying, they were both in a hurry to meet up with Robert, who at this point was on the run after getting defeated by Randyll Tarly, so they probably would have accepted anyway. Hoster essentially pulled the same move that Walder Frey did to Robb. 

Exactly, Hoster Tully stayed on the sidelines until months into the war, and only agreed to join in on the side of the rebels for two of the three rebel leaders wedding his daughters.

[Bael's Bastard]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Arryn accepted for the military support, his House had heirs. 

The eldest married Ser Denys Arryn, a distant cousin to the Lords of the Eyrie. There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches 

House Arryn was never in any danger of going extinct (nor is House Stark for that matter). 

It was for sure primarily for military support, and House Arryn wasn't close to extinction, but still better to keep it closer to the main branch of the family. Before he had a son, his brother Ronnel was likely his heir, then Ronnel's son Elbert after him, the last male line descendant of his father Jasper other than himself. After Elbert died, he named Denys, who was at least married to a daughter of his sister, and apparently had a good reputation in the Vale.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I understand the whole distant family thing. Once the Targaryens where wiped out Robert Baratheon was pretty close to being next in line to the throne anyway due to his grandmother being a Targaryen, but that doesn't mean I would ever count him as a Targaryen, just like how I'd never count Harrold Hardyng an Arryn, or Arnolf Karstark as a Stark. 

Under slightly different circumstances, Robert or his father or grandfather very easily might have ascended the throne as Targaryens. For instance, had Jaehaerys I, Aerys (II), and baby Rhaegar also perished at Summerhall in 259 AC, there is a very good chance Ormund Baratheon might have been chosen to ascend the throne as Ormund Targaryen. It is not uncommon for a female line descendant of a house to take their name upon becoming lord of that house. I would think Harrold would become Harrold Arryn if he succeeds Robert.

[Angel Eyes]

We've already had a female-line Targaryen take the throne: Aegon III. I'm surprised anyone let him, considering that it would be illegal under the Great Council of 101 AC.

[Bael's Bastard]

25 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

We've already had a female-line Targaryen take the throne: Aegon III. I'm surprised anyone let him, considering that it would be illegal under the Great Council of 101 AC.

No, he was Targ on both sides.