Tullies are Bastards

[Lady Barbrey]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as through he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.

"My uncle is out there," Jon Snow said softly, leaning on his spear as he stared off into the darkness.

(AGoT, Chap. 21, Tyrion III)

@Lady Barbrey's good insights about the Fisher King allusions and the recurring theme of the father and uncle who are in conflict (with the subsequent disappearance of the uncle) could give your thread new life. GRRM is definitely setting up a pattern with Benjen Stark, Gerion Lannister, Aeron Greyjoy, Prince Lewin, Blackfish and other uncle figures throughout the series. (I suspect Brown Ben Plumm is an "uncle" figure for Dany, and his "return" to supporting her, claiming he never left, could help us to sort out the other uncles who are still missing.) I don't know how much we can rely on it, but GRRM also sets up an important father / uncle conflict in his little story called The Ice Dragon, also set in Westeros.

So despair not. There is always something to discuss. The impotence and fertility ideas outlined by Lady Barbrey are really interesting in the Tully context.

I am reading and re-reading The Sworn Sword, hoping to get back to the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread. I recently figured out that GRRM set up Ser Lucas Inchfield as a (I assume) symbolic father figure for Dunk. At the moment

  Reveal hidden contents

Dunk kills Ser Lucas while they struggle in the stream,

Dunk focuses on a fish flashing past his face and he thinks, "What's that?" three times. I don't know if the fish represents

  Reveal hidden contents

the life force leaving the body of Ser Lucas or Dunk's life as he drowns in the stream,

but it's always significant when GRRM has a character say something three times. Aside from the Oedipal situation, I immediately thought of the Tullys when I read this, with their cremation ceremonies on rivers and trout sigils. Rivers are often phallic symbols, so the close association of Tullys with rivers and Lady Barbrey's fertility insights are all very intriguing. Like Blackfish, Ser Lucas doesn't marry. He wants to marry, but the prospective bride doesn't want him.

Another interesting line of inquiry would be to look at the parallels between Uncle Brynden / Blackfish and the other Brynden: Uncle Bloodraven. We don't know of any children fathered by Bloodraven, but there is a lot of speculation in this forum.

For what it's worth, I do see a detail in the text that tells me that Catelyn's children are the descendants of Hoster Tully. Hoster doesn't say much, but he does say several times that Robb Stark has his (Hoster's) eyes. We get a number of people shaving their heads and dying their hair, but people's eyes don't lie. Sometimes they look different in different lighting, but I think this utterance from Hoster confirms a paternal link to Catelyn and Robb.

Thanks Seams.  Now you've got me intrigued about uncle figures! @Corvo the Crow I think you're picking up on the idea that Blackfish doesn't want to marry and trying to find a reason for it.  I honestly far prefer the scenario he was in love with Minisa as more interesting than a lot of other reasons I can think of so kudos for spitballing it.

As re my Fisher King scenario, in a lot of versions there are two impotent Fisher King's, grandfather and grandson (and in the case of the First, the grandfather, the reason for maiming is usually a sin against a woman (so with Corvo's scenario I was thinking Hoster marrying Minisa who loved Blackfish and vice versa).  I first worked up a scenario a long time ago where a Galahad figure, which Brienne fits to a tee, restores Bran, the crippled impotent grandson Fisher King.  It got some traction because suddenly we were all thinking there might be hope for Bran being cured at the end of al, this!  But of course, George picks the bits he wants from these myths to serve his stories or inspire them so unfortunately I don't put much faith in it.

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as through he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.

"My uncle is out there," Jon Snow said softly, leaning on his spear as he stared off into the darkness.

(AGoT, Chap. 21, Tyrion III)

@Lady Barbrey's good insights about the Fisher King allusions and the recurring theme of the father and uncle who are in conflict (with the subsequent disappearance of the uncle) could give your thread new life. GRRM is definitely setting up a pattern with Benjen Stark, Gerion Lannister, Aeron Greyjoy, Prince Lewin, Blackfish and other uncle figures throughout the series. (I suspect Brown Ben Plumm is an "uncle" figure for Dany, and his "return" to supporting her, claiming he never left, could help us to sort out the other uncles who are still missing.) I don't know how much we can rely on it, but GRRM also sets up an important father / uncle conflict in his little story called The Ice Dragon, also set in Westeros.

So despair not. There is always something to discuss. The impotence and fertility ideas outlined by Lady Barbrey are really interesting in the Tully context.

I am reading and re-reading The Sworn Sword, hoping to get back to the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread. I recently figured out that GRRM set up Ser Lucas Inchfield as a (I assume) symbolic father figure for Dunk. At the moment

  Reveal hidden contents

Dunk kills Ser Lucas while they struggle in the stream,

Dunk focuses on a fish flashing past his face and he thinks, "What's that?" three times. I don't know if the fish represents

  Reveal hidden contents

the life force leaving the body of Ser Lucas or Dunk's life as he drowns in the stream,

but it's always significant when GRRM has a character say something three times. Aside from the Oedipal situation, I immediately thought of the Tullys when I read this, with their cremation ceremonies on rivers and trout sigils. Rivers are often phallic symbols, so the close association of Tullys with rivers and Lady Barbrey's fertility insights are all very intriguing. Like Blackfish, Ser Lucas doesn't marry. He wants to marry, but the prospective bride doesn't want him.

Another interesting line of inquiry would be to look at the parallels between Uncle Brynden / Blackfish and the other Brynden: Uncle Bloodraven. We don't know of any children fathered by Bloodraven, but there is a lot of speculation in this forum.

For what it's worth, I do see a detail in the text that tells me that Catelyn's children are the descendants of Hoster Tully. Hoster doesn't say much, but he does say several times that Robb Stark has his (Hoster's) eyes. We get a number of people shaving their heads and dying their hair, but people's eyes don't lie. Sometimes they look different in different lighting, but I think this utterance from Hoster confirms a paternal link to Catelyn and Robb.

And now I'm left with confused feelings.

 

I'd also like to learn more on the uncles so a thread for that maybe?

[Back door hodor]

Honestly....I always read the blackfishs refusal to marry a signal he was gay.....and that his brother could not convince him to marry for the good of house Tully, and that was wher re their quarrel came from....I know there is not much evidence for brendens sexual orientation one way or the other and that this has not been discussed much(as far as I know) on this site but that has always been my feeling.

Honestly curious to see what others think 

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

@Corvo the Crow I think you're picking up on the idea that Blackfish doesn't want to marry and trying to find a reason for it.  I honestly far prefer the scenario he was in love with Minisa as more interesting than a lot of other reasons I can think of so kudos for spitballing it.

I honestly just stumbled upon that thought. It is known(!) from the beginning that Hoster's hair is brown unlike the rest of the family but that means nothing by itself. Then I noticed how he was a father figure to Hoster's (and Minisa's) children, even more so than Hoster and how he constantly quarreled with him because he didn't want to marry.

Also just now a sudden idea flashed in my mind; He is called Blackfish, guess who else is called Black in the Riverlands and what does he do? Black Walder, sleeps around with the wives of his brothers/cousins.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Honestly....I always read the blackfishs refusal to marry a signal he was gay.....and that his brother could not convince him to marry for the good of house Tully, and that was wher re their quarrel came from....I know there is not much evidence for brendens sexual orientation one way or the other and that this has not been discussed much(as far as I know) on this site but that has always been my feeling.

I think it has been discussed quite extensively. I may be wrong, but I think it might be considered the most commonly held theory when it comes to the question of why he never married.