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Sly Wren

Stark Maids Don’t Love Rhaegar/Bael Figures: A Meta-Critical Show vs. Tell

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If GRRM is trying to show anything by the way Sansa reacts, it’s to demonstrate how differently she reacts to the way that Lyanna did.

Both Sansa and Lyanna travel South whilst betrothed to a son of House Baratheon, however, Sansa is happy to be betrothed to Joffrey whilst Lyanna is unhappy (based on what textual evidence there is).  Also, Joffrey is not the Rhaegar substitute but the Robert one.

When there is trouble between Arya, Mycah and Joffrey, Sansa merely screams that they’re spoiling everything, whereas Lyanna picks up a sword and attacks the squires who are beating Howland Reed.

At the tourney, Sansa is given a single red rose where she is one of many to receive one and people are happy to receive them etc, however, Lyanna is given a crown of blue roses and ‘all the smiles died’.

Sansa acts meek at Court and does nothing to shame Joffrey (and hates what she sees as Arya’s embarrassing actions), whereas Ned tells Robert that Lyanna had iron underneath her beauty and would not be submissive.

You stated that both Sansa and Lyanna are held in ‘towers’, with Sansa being a witness to the happiness and therefore Lyanna must be a witness to someone else being happy in the tower (as in, someone else is having Rhaegar’s child).  However, as GRRM has shown that Lyanna’s story is opposite to Sansa’s, that would imply that Lyanna was the one participating in the happiness in the tower, not merely witnessing it like Sansa.

Finally, Sansa leaves the ‘tower’ alive but Lyanna dies instead, thereby ending her story, whereas Sansa’s story continues.

Therefore, all 'Stark maids' do not react the same way at all.

We could conclude from this that whilst Sansa’s ‘prince’ turned out to be a monster who doesn’t love Sansa and treats her terribly and with whom she falls out of love with (once he reveals his true personality to her), that Lyanna’s prince turns out to be everything everyone thought about him and that Lyanna loved him and Rhaegar loved her.

Edited by Jacqs-Aus

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22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

I really think you are mistaken in saying Arya gets emotional. Simply remembering the one person in your family who likes songs when a song is played does not suggest Arya was having an emotional reaction to the song.

But leading up to this, we've seen Arya remember her family in snatches. Sometimes anger, sometimes aching, sometimes missing, sometimes random thoughts--like when she thinks she needs to tell Jon who his mother is.

The sweetness of Sansa's voice--that's a pleasant, missing, sad memory. Not just random thoughts.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

If anything it suggests she was bored.

Then why focus on it at all? Why not focus on it's being stupid? She's thinking about it, thinking about it's being sad--and the family she misses.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

“So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.”

Right--she's focusing on remembering the sweetness of Sansa's voice. Not that Sansa was better than her, or a brat, or awful. She's missing Sansa and her old life.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

The reason she can’t hear words isn’t because it’s sad, it’s becuase he’s playing soft.. we know from another story that Sansa loved singers so it is natural Arya would think of her.

Sure--but thinking of Sansa and her voice as sweet--that's not just, "Sansa sang better than me and bullied me!" Sweet and sad is . . . sweet and sad.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Seriously, there is nothing here that suggest Arya was moved emotionally. If she sniffled, or made any comment/thought that showed emotion then maybe, but no. There is 100% absolutely nothing here emotional, just an objective memory.

We've seen Arya's memories, missing her family for 2+ books at this point. This statement isn't neutral. It isn't gushing, but it isn't neutral, either.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

youre basing your theory off lyanna and Arya having had the same reactions, but they didn’t at all. The parallel is the song,  not how the stark girl reacts to it. Tom and rhaegar are opposites, as shown by Ned’s comment about brothels.

Same reaction? we don't know. We do know both are somewhat emotional.

And I agree the reaction to the song is the key--not the singer. Arya reacts to Tom's song. Meera specifically says the song makes Lyanna sniffle. Regardless of singer, the song seems to be the key.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

and if lyanna was in love with Dayne there would be textual evidence for it elsewhere,

There is some--that Jon is tied to the Daynes and the Sword of the Morning. That Arthur matters more that the other KG and definitely more than Rhaegar. That Jon's origins are tied to Starfall. It's in the text--it's equivocal, but there.

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

like the overwhelming evidence there is for r+l=j.

Overwhelming? That's subjective. Extant? Absolutely--just like there's a lot of evidence that the Lannisters killed Arryn. And tons of evidence that Jon is Ned's son. 

22 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Arthur is qhorin, Ashara is quaithe

I'm with you on the second. :cheers:

And I think Qhorin has Arthur qualities. But I really think Ned and Howland killed Arthur--his sadness, his taking the sword to Starfall. . . . anything specific you are thinking of as to why Arthur would fake his death and become Qhorin? Vs. sticking to protecting whomever he was supposed to protect?

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17 hours ago, Jacqs-Aus said:

If GRRM is trying to show anything by the way Sansa reacts, it’s to demonstrate how differently she reacts to the way that Lyanna did.

Agreed--Sansa echoes Lyanna's path (Robert makes that clear; same with Ned's thinking of Lyanna over Lady)--but Sansa does not start to get into Lyanna's mindset until after Ned's murder. Only then does Sansa, like Arya, start to see through people the way Lyanna seems to with Robert.

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Both Sansa and Lyanna travel South whilst betrothed to a son of House Baratheon, however, Sansa is happy to be betrothed to Joffrey whilst Lyanna is unhappy (based on what textual evidence there is).  Also, Joffrey is not the Rhaegar substitute but the Robert one.

Joff and the Lannisters are Targ Wannabes. And Robert, for all his many faults, is nowhere near as vile as Joff.

But I take your point--and we should look at Arya's reactions here, too. How does Arya react to pampered, entitled Princes? She hits them. She attacks them. She doesn't put up with their showboating or abuses. Given what we are told about Arya's being like Lyanna, seems like that reaction is telling.

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When there is trouble between Arya, Mycah and Joffrey, Sansa merely screams that they’re spoiling everything, whereas Lyanna picks up a sword and attacks the squires who are beating Howland Reed.

Yup! Arya (so much like Lyanna in looks and temperament) attacks the Prince who's abusing his power and showboating.

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At the tourney, Sansa is given a single red rose where she is one of many to receive one and people are happy to receive them etc, however, Lyanna is given a crown of blue roses and ‘all the smiles died’.

Right--but Sansa is given the rose by a man whose sigil is a rose and who, at the time, is covered in blue flowers (blue flowers are mentioned even more rarely than blue roses in the novels). And the rose does not mean what such gestures typically mean.

As for the reaction: since Sansa is so unlike Lyanna, as you say, seems like there's a decent chance Lyanna, like her family, would have a dead smile.

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Sansa acts meek at Court and does nothing to shame Joffrey (and hates what she sees as Arya’s embarrassing actions), whereas Ned tells Robert that Lyanna had iron underneath her beauty and would not be submissive.

Yup! Sansa only gains some degree of Lyanna like understanding after Ned's death. Arya has it much sooner. Sansa has a very . . . shallow learning curve.

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You stated that both Sansa and Lyanna are held in ‘towers’, with Sansa being a witness to the happiness and therefore Lyanna must be a witness to someone else being happy in the tower (as in, someone else is having Rhaegar’s child).  However, as GRRM has shown that Lyanna’s story is opposite to Sansa’s, that would imply that Lyanna was the one participating in the happiness in the tower, not merely witnessing it like Sansa.

No--GRRM has not shown that Sansa's story is "opposite"--only that her reactions are not like Arya's (who is like Lyanna) until after Ned's murder. We are told flat out that Sansa's plot (go south to marry "Baratheon" heir) echoes Lyanna's in some key ways.

And that tower with the joke name happens when Sansa is at least a bit less idealistic. 

Plus, we have other data points: Arya, held by the brotherhood. They go to various places, even meet Tom's old lover at Acorn Hall. But they never hide the Stark Maid out in a tower or any other place for long. They move around, with the Stark Maid under an alias. 

And there's Jon: also, never hiding out anywhere. He hides under a lie.

Sansa, too, is hidden under an alias and disguise. 

And in neither Jon's nor Arya's case does the Stark Maid fall for the Rhaegar figure (Mance, Stannis, even Beric). Jon falls for the follower of the Rhaegar figure. And Arya has a crush on Robert's bastard and is affected by a Dayne.

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Finally, Sansa leaves the ‘tower’ alive but Lyanna dies instead, thereby ending her story, whereas Sansa’s story continues.

But we do not know Lyanna dies in the tower. We only know she dies in a room smelling of blood and roses. And GRRM's given us good reason to believe people in Westeros don't hide or hold stolen Stark maids in isolated towers.

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Therefore, all 'Stark maids' do not react the same way at all.

Right--but after Ned's death, Sansa reacts more and more like her siblings. Starts to really miss Arya. At least until Lysa's death when she morphs into Alayne (but that's a whole other thing).

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We could conclude from this that whilst Sansa’s ‘prince’ turned out to be a monster who doesn’t love Sansa and treats her terribly and with whom she falls out of love with (once he reveals his true personality to her), that Lyanna’s prince turns out to be everything everyone thought about him and that Lyanna loved him and Rhaegar loved her.

If we had no other data points and if Sansa did not change her mind, maybe.

But we have Arya and Jon. And their reactions to the entitled Prince. And Lyanna's take on men. And whom Arya and Jon are attracted to. 

GRRM gave us a lot of data points. I think there's a reason for all of that.

Edited by Sly Wren
I can't spell. Or format.

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On 2/8/2019 at 4:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

Joff and the Lannisters are Targ Wannabes. And Robert, for all his many faults, is nowhere near as vile as Joff.

While Rhaegar, by all accounts we have except for Robert's wasn't vile at all - so what's your point here?

 

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How does Arya react to pampered, entitled Princes? She hits them. She attacks them. She doesn't put up with their showboating or abuses. Given what we are told about Arya's being like Lyanna, seems like that reaction is telling.

Since none of it has anything to do with Rhaegar I don't see how. Arya has specific reactions to a specific person, who happens to be a prince - and also a cruel, cowardly bully. But she doesn't attack Tommen - who is also pampered, but good-natured. So, you can't claim that Arya just plain hates and attacks princes.

Look, you clearly have put a lot of time and thought into this, but it looks to me like not only do you apply "Wheel of Time" or Battlestar Galactica-like view of circular time where essentially the same people do the same things thoughout the ages again and again to ASoIaF, which doesn't support this element of worldbuilding.  But you also seem to  repeatedly equate apples and oranges in order to arrive at you preferred conclusion.

Like, for instance, if pre-pubescent Arya doesn't fall in love with a hideously mutilated fire zombie or some shifty old singer who slept his way up and down the Riverlands, but shows some interest - I wouldn't even call it a crush, in comely boys a few years older than herself - then it _must_ mean that she prefers followers to leaders?!  And that Lyanna must have been the same, because they are clones and the same situations just keep endlessly repeating in the series?

And yet you conveniently ignore the one thing that Arya _did_ demonstrate unmistakeably - namely how deadly (heh) seriously she takes the vows of lifelong service in celibate orders. If you want to equate Arya with Lyanna, then there is zero chance of Lyanna taking up with Arthur Dayne.

 

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Right--but Sansa is given the rose by a man whose sigil is a rose and who, at the time, is covered in blue flowers (blue flowers are mentioned even more rarely than blue roses in the novels). And the rose does not mean what such gestures typically mean.

What does it have to do with anything? Was Rhaegar's sigil a rose? Are all gifts of flowers typically very significant?

What makes Lyanna's association with Rhaegar's wreath important is that they are linked in several prophetic visions and Ned's memories and dreams. It was significant _for them_. It doesn't matter if millions other people exchange roses for other, more superficial reasons. Sansa isn't going to hold Loras's rose on her deathbed, I wager.

 

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 Jon falls for the follower of the Rhaegar figure.

This is utterly disingenious, IMHO. Both Jon and Mance are heterosexual men. A romance between the 2 was never on the table. Or, you know, between Jon and Stannis - Jannis?:P. Jon fell for Ygritte not because she was a follower, but because she was a woman that  he was attracted to and she pursued him very aggressively, even, with the help of Mance and other wildlings, pressured him into sex.

Now, let's speak about the overall "seduction" - intially, Mance is presented as an enemy - he comes to kill Jon's new family and attack his old country. Even so, Jon is nearly seduced - it takes a shocking reminder of what the wildling raiders are about for him to escape. But lets fast-forward to the end of ADwD - Jon now identifies with the wildlings and prioritizes their interests over those of the Watch and the northmen. He totally bought into Mance's mission of saving them and is about to lead them against the North. He "doesn't want or need" his black brothers anymore. I'd say that Mance, Ygritte, Tormund and Val between them have successfully completed his seduction, after all, and he has been indoctrinated into their "cult". If this is any indication for Lyanna, then she bought into Rhaegar's  end of the world prophecies hook, line and sinker.

The same is, to lesser degree, true of Stannis. Jon ends up aiding and abetting Stannis more and more until he just directly saves his bacon with his warning about the Karstarks.  

 

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 And GRRM's given us good reason to believe people in Westeros don't hide or hold stolen Stark maids in isolated towers.

GRRM never gave us a reason to think that the "Stark Maids" are clones, who are repeatedly trapped in the same situations. Sansa was the only one of her siblings who has spent any time in a somewhat isolated tower(house) anyway.

 

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But we have Arya and Jon. And their reactions to the entitled Prince.

Who, apart from trappings, is nothing like Rhaegar and in many ways his opposite. All princes are not the same, anymore than all members of the same family are copies of each other. They are all individuals.

 

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 And whom Arya and Jon are attracted to.

Yes, they are not attracted to hideously mutilated fire zombies, shifty old lotharios or people of the same sex. I agree that Lyanna likely shared these preferences :D.

 

Edited by Maia

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8 hours ago, Maia said:

While Rhaegar, by all accounts we have except for Robert's wasn't vile at all - so what's your point here?

Since none of it has anything to do with Rhaegar I don't see how. Arya has specific reactions to a specific person, who happens to be a prince - and also a cruel, cowardly bully. But she doesn't attack Tommen - who is also pampered, but good-natured. So, you can't claim that Arya just plain hates and attacks princes.

No--but it is telling how she reacts to entitled ones tho think they have the right to take things over. And she isn't attracted to Tommen, either. 

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Look, you clearly have put a lot of time and thought into this, but it looks to me like not only do you apply "Wheel of Time" or Battlestar Galactica-like view of circular time where essentially the same people do the same things thoughout the ages again and again to ASoIaF, which doesn't support this element of worldbuilding.  But you also seem to  repeatedly equate apples and oranges in order to arrive at you preferred conclusion.

Oh! No--that's not my premise. Apologies for giving that impression.

No--my premise is that

  • A: we do have some repetition (Others returning, Dragons returning).
  • B. But the key point: we have a few markers about what happened in Robert's Rebellion--a few details about the key players, some "facts" about what happened (that may or not be true).
    • Then, Martin puts his characters (in this case Stark Maids) with people who have some similar markers. For instance, Mance: Martin did NOT have to give Mance his red and black cloak, his Bael the Bard fanboyism, his desire for a Stark hostage (according to Osha and apparently confirmed when Mance gets Jon). 
    • GRRM makes Mance his own character--Jon's interactions with him are Jon's plot. BUT GRRM also adds in the Rhaegar/Bael imagery. He really, really did not have to do that. Really seems like it's a marker: and we should pay attention to how the Stark maid (Jon) interacts with Mance--with his mission, with his ideology, etc.
  • Add in C: GRRM made it stunningly clear at Lysa's Moon Door that just because characters (and readers) think they know what happened does not mean they are right--all that together: that's why I'm asserting we should look at how Stark maids react to people with Rhaegar/Bael imagery.
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Like, for instance, if pre-pubescent Arya doesn't fall in love with a hideously mutilated fire zombie or some shifty old singer who slept his way up and down the Riverlands, but shows some interest - I wouldn't even call it a crush, in comely boys a few years older than herself - then it _must_ mean that she prefers followers to leaders?!  And that Lyanna must have been the same, because they are clones and the same situations just keep endlessly repeating in the series?

If Beric was just a fire zombie and Gendry was a random bastard--I'd be with you. But Beric and his knights have echoes of Rhaegar and his KG. And Gendry is Robert's bastard--the same Robert Lyanna had reservation about. Gendry is still Gendry. Beric is still Beric. And Arya is not Lyanna--but those markers/comparisons: GRRM did not have to include them--so why does he? Why bother? Really seems like they are markers--not code, but markers--and we should pay attention.

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And yet you conveniently ignore the one thing that Arya _did_ demonstrate unmistakeably - namely how deadly (heh) seriously she takes the vows of lifelong service in celibate orders. If you want to equate Arya with Lyanna, then there is zero chance of Lyanna taking up with Arthur Dayne.

A very fair point--though she's first mad at him for not being on the Wall. For leaving his post--do we have evidence Arthur left his post? 

And then we have Jon. . . . 

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What does it have to do with anything? Was Rhaegar's sigil a rose? Are all gifts of flowers typically very significant?

The significance is Stark Maids and roses--and a gift at a tourney. We only find out later that Lyanna also had a gift at a tourney--this time of blue roses (vs. Sansa, getting roses from a blue-flower covered rose-man). And only find out later that Loras' gift did not mean what Sansa thought it meant.  . 

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What makes Lyanna's association with Rhaegar's wreath important is that they are linked in several prophetic visions and Ned's memories and dreams. It was significant _for them_. It doesn't matter if millions other people exchange roses for other, more superficial reasons. Sansa isn't going to hold Loras's rose on her deathbed, I wager.

Absolutely. But we are not yet told why it matters or what the link is--why is the wreath a horror for Ned?  A lot of readers assume it's all about love--but we specifically have another Stark maid get an unromantic rose--a rose she still thinks about. Not to mention that creepy moment with Marillion. And the Blue Bard.

Martin brings up blue roses and flowers rarely--but it isn't just with Lyanna. He brings in blue and roses with Sansa and others, too. If we want to understand what's up, seems like we should pay attention.

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This is utterly disingenious, IMHO. Both Jon and Mance are heterosexual men. A romance between the 2 was never on the table. Or, you know, between Jon and Stannis - Jannis?:P.

HA! They could have a menage a trois. Mance could play while Stannis fire-gazes for lyrics and Ghost howls the harmonies. And Stannis can give Jon and Mance burning hearts for Valentines.:P

But the point is what I said above: GRRM give Mance Rhaegar/Bael imagery he did not need to give him. And he gives Stannis markers, too: Targ descendant; believes his "relatives" shouldn't rule; obsessed with prophecy; lives on Dragonstone; willing to fight for his throne--and let other die in that fight; not likely to frequent brothels (according to Ned). Stannis and Rhaegar have different reputations and temperaments. But Martin did not have to give Stannis all those markers. 

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Jon fell for Ygritte not because she was a follower, but because she was a woman that  he was attracted to and she pursued him very aggressively, even, with the help of Mance and other wildlings, pressured him into sex.

Yes. But the fact that she's a devoted follower of a Rhaegar figure--GRRM did not have to include that. So why did he? Dunno for sure. But it seems worth noting.

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Now, let's speak about the overall "seduction" - intially, Mance is presented as an enemy - he comes to kill Jon's new family and attack his old country. Even so, Jon is nearly seduced - it takes a shocking reminder of what the wildling raiders are about for him to escape. But lets fast-forward to the end of ADwD - Jon now identifies with the wildlings and prioritizes their interests over those of the Watch and the northmen. He totally bought into Mance's mission of saving them and is about to lead them against the North.

Absolutely--he believes Mance's take on protecting all. Schools the Watch on how that's what the last really means. Though he rejects Mance's take on attacking the Watch.

And Mance's take on protecting all fits with Jon's belief in protecting--in what his "father" ned has taught him, too.

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He "doesn't want or need" his black brothers anymore.

He schools them on the need to better follow their oath. He fully embraces that oath--Jon's a true believer. He's insisting that the Watch has gotten it wrong, not that the Watch is useless. . . 

And he refutes to leave for power or land. Only leaves to protect family . . . which raises the question of how Lyanna might feel after hearing what happened to Rickard and Brandon. And that Ned was constantly in danger from the war Rhaegar was intentionally sitting out of. . . 

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I'd say that Mance, Ygritte, Tormund and Val between them have successfully completed his seduction,

Somewhat--though he is horrified by Val's take on Shireen. I'm guessing that conflict is on it's way.

And Jon still believes in the oath of the Watch. His time with wildlings has driven him to re-think and redefine that oath. But he's all in on it. He refuses Stannis' offer for Winterfell--both due to the watch and due to his loyalty to the Starks--won't disinherit Sansa.

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after all, and he has been indoctrinated into their "cult". If this is any indication for Lyanna, then she bought into Rhaegar's  end of the world prophecies hook, line and sinker.

And if Jon had stayed with Mance and not fought him--maybe. If Jon weren't horrified by Val's take on Shireen. If Jon was willing to abandon the watch as Mance did--maybe.

Jon is influenced heavily--no doubt. Arya sympathizes with Beric's cause, too. Could absolutely see Lyanna's learning to sympathize. This is one of the few R+L scenarios I can buy: Rhaegar and Co. found Lyanna by chance; helped her and refused to return her until it fit their purpose. 

But seduced into a prophecy cult? We see Jon's reaction to that with Stannis. And with Val's idea of "purification." No--Jon sympathizes, heavily--but he's got differences. And when it comes to prophecy--they are southron fools.

ETA: Plus, there's the tie to family: that's why Jon won't take Stannis' offer, cult or no cult. Lyanna's with people who are sitting out a war that's gotten her father and brother killed. If she's like Jon, seems like she might sympathize, but she will choose family, not a cult.

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The same is, to lesser degree, true of Stannis. Jon ends up aiding and abetting Stannis more and more until he just directly saves his bacon with his warning about the Karstarks.  

But he's horrified by the prophecy cult--willing to help the North, but not with the cult.

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GRRM never gave us a reason to think that the "Stark Maids" are clones, who are repeatedly trapped in the same situations. Sansa was the only one of her siblings who has spent any time in a somewhat isolated tower(house) anyway.

Agreed--and Sansa's short time at the tower seems. . . telling.

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Who, apart from trappings, is nothing like Rhaegar and in many ways his opposite. All princes are not the same, anymore than all members of the same family are copies of each other. They are all individuals.

Agreed.

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Yes, they are not attracted to hideously mutilated fire zombies, shifty old lotharios or people of the same sex. I agree that Lyanna likely shared these preferences :D.

In which case, Lyanna's good judgment shines bright! 

And if that's all they were, I'd be right with you.

But Martin also gives them Rhaegar/Bael markers. . . and gives Jon, Arya, and Sansa Lyanna markers.

He did not have to do this. Seems like we should pay attention.

Edited by Sly Wren
I can't spell.

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Thinking about OP's theory more, I do think Lyanna/Rhaegar and Catelyn/Littlefinger both have a bit of the doomed Heathcliff/Catherine dynamic in various ways. 

However, we do know the princess is more likely to run off with the prince than with the stable boy, and that is reflected in different outcomes between Lyanna and Cat. This is why Rhaegar and Littlefinger could both be different sides of the Heathcliff coin: Byronic heroes who are appealing in some ways, but also pathetically obsessive and dangerous in others.

The characterization of Rhaegar is rather thin but this theory of the OP's might hold more weight if he was more like LF, who has an axe to grind and is obsessed with sewing chaos among the nobility. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy but he also appears to be thinking that he's acting nobly. I dont know how Lyanna would react to that (if she was even aware), but in the original BATB story, the beast wasn't malicious or a jerk, he was actually very nice and mild mannered, he just looked scary. Making Rhaegar into some kind of Shakespearean poet/bard sounds like a nod to GRRM's Vincent in the TV show.

At the same time, LF and Rhaegar both sowed so much discord they have a lot of similarities too. 

If the Wuthering Heights homage holds, this means the next generation can be more hopeful and less destructive than their parents' dramas, however. So I think a Hareton/Cathy would come into the story at a later date (I think that's Jon and Sansa, but that's just me :-P)

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