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Alexander Leonard

Do you think Victarion Greyjoy is a psycopath?

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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 4:52 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Your concept of a psychopath is as simplistic as bad man doing bad things. It’s wrong. Based of how you’ve laid out of what is a psychopath near every warrior in a raider-society is a psychopath. All the ironborn warriors are just psychopaths. No further analysis needed.

The definition for psychopath (per my dictionary) is a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal of violent social behavior.  An unstable and aggressive person.  You think Vic is non violent, and stable?  or do you change the definition of words to suite your meaning then blather about it endlessly online?

I am going to go out on a limb and say yes a bunch of warriors in raiding based societies were pyscho.  If a bunch of psychopaths get together and make a city state, would you consider them all pyscho or just a different 'culture'?  If your culture is that of raping, stealing, killing, and taking people into slavery then joking about it and showing no remorse....  I'm going to go ahead and say you are all fucking psychos. 

If a small innocent toddler born in Russia is moved to Spain with foster parents who treat him terribly, and he starts killing, stealing, raping uncontrollably, is he pyscho or just a troubled youngster?  Did he just adapt to his culture?

Ted Bundy was considered a regular, intelligent kind guy to many, many people...  his actions of killing and raping made him a pyscho. 

 

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23 hours ago, Ser Dood said:

The definition for psychopath (per my dictionary) is a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal of violent social behavior.  An unstable and aggressive person.  You think Vic is non violent, and stable?  or do you change the definition of words to suite your meaning then blather about it endlessly online?

I am going to go out on a limb and say yes a bunch of warriors in raiding based societies were pyscho.  If a bunch of psychopaths get together and make a city state, would you consider them all pyscho or just a different 'culture'?  If your culture is that of raping, stealing, killing, and taking people into slavery then joking about it and showing no remorse....  I'm going to go ahead and say you are all fucking psychos. 

If a small innocent toddler born in Russia is moved to Spain with foster parents who treat him terribly, and he starts killing, stealing, raping uncontrollably, is he pyscho or just a troubled youngster?  Did he just adapt to his culture?

Ted Bundy was considered a regular, intelligent kind guy to many, many people...  his actions of killing and raping made him a pyscho. 

 

Apart from the first line this is flat out wrong from start to finish.  Psycopathy is a mental illness or personality disorder that a few individuals may display.

Describing a culture with all it's rules, norms and structures as psycopathic is just dumb.  Most societies in human history have practiced warfare (all really) and the geneva convention is a recent invention to try and limit the worst aspects of warfare.  Were medieval societies psycopathic because armies regularly sacked cities or how about ancient societies that had no problem with human sacrifice or mass enslavement of defeated enemies, or how about papua new guinean or central African headhunters, surely they all meet your incredibly low bar of violence?  I guess human history is nothing but psycopathy if you misuse the term.

Psycopathy is being wilfully misunderstood and the term misused in this thread.  A generally violent person may in no way be psycopathic: that label should only follow careful behavioural analysis or clinical diagnosis.

And to answer your question: yes, Vic is a stable person.  What makes you think otherwise?  He's a warrior, sure, but soldier or warrior =/= psycopath unless you have extremes like Ramsay Bolton / Tickler / Rorge / Biter and there the soldiery is second fiddle to the sadism and genuinely warped nature of the individuals.  Even so, only Ramsay really meets the textbook definition of a psycopath due to his ability to lie and manipulate convincingly and then casually murder people without a second thought (befriending Domeric Bolton, hiding as "Reek" and inveigling his way into Theon's trust), the others are flat out monsters without any guile or superficial charm to lure the unwary.

Are you really comparing Ted Bundy and Victarion?  Surely you understand that it was Bundy's mental disorder and abnormal  behaviour - the serial murder of women, 30 or so I believe and the manner in which he behaved during and afterwards - that make him a psycopath not the mere act of violence.  I mean Jon Snow is violent too, was he a "psycho" for executing Janos Slynt or slashing at Thorne with his dagger?

Vic and Jon (and others) are not psychopaths, they just happen to live in a pseudo-medieval world that celebrates combat and individual fighting skill rather than 21st century liberal democracies.

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21 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Apart from the first line this is flat out wrong from start to finish.  Psycopathy is a mental illness or personality disorder that a few individuals may display.

Describing a culture with all it's rules, norms and structures as psycopathic is just dumb.  Most societies in human history have practiced warfare (all really) and the geneva convention is a recent invention to try and limit the worst aspects of warfare.  Were medieval societies psycopathic because armies regularly sacked cities or how about ancient societies that had no problem with human sacrifice or mass enslavement of defeated enemies, or how about papua new guinean or central African headhunters, surely they all meet your incredibly low bar of violence?  I guess human history is nothing but psycopathy if you misuse the term.

Psycopathy is being wilfully misunderstood and the term misused in this thread.  A generally violent person may in no way be psycopathic: that label should only follow careful behavioural analysis or clinical diagnosis.

And to answer your question: yes, Vic is a stable person.  What makes you think otherwise?  He's a warrior, sure, but soldier or warrior =/= psycopath unless you have extremes like Ramsay Bolton / Tickler / Rorge / Biter and there the soldiery is second fiddle to the sadism and genuinely warped nature of the individuals.  Even so, only Ramsay really meets the textbook definition of a psycopath due to his ability to lie and manipulate convincingly and then casually murder people without a second thought (befriending Domeric Bolton, hiding as "Reek" and inveigling his way into Theon's trust), the others are flat out monsters without any guile or superficial charm to lure the unwary.

Are you really comparing Ted Bundy and Victarion?  Surely you understand that it was Bundy's mental disorder and abnormal  behaviour - the serial murder of women, 30 or so I believe and the manner in which he behaved during and afterwards - that make him a psycopath not the mere act of violence.  I mean Jon Snow is violent too, was he a "psycho" for executing Janos Slynt or slashing at Thorne with his dagger?

Vic and Jon (and others) are not psychopaths, they just happen to live in a pseudo-medieval world that celebrates combat and individual fighting skill rather than 21st century liberal democracies.

I quoted the dictionary, If you want to play online psychiatrist then so be it.  Vic doesn't show remorse and justifies his violent actions, which there are man and they are incredibly violent.  Ramsay is also one, so is Roose and the Tickler.  If you are abnormally violent and show no remorse you are a psycho..  Some are smarter than others.  Vic can be a complicated character, he can seem honorable for an IB, but he is still a damn psycho. 

Can you show me any example of Vic showing any remorse?  I remember he didn't immediately accept the Dusky woman, but that is about it.

Edit: I do not understand where you get the idea a psycho needs to be able to manipulate and lie.  Some studies show pyscho paths have average or below average IQ, which is why they most often have run ins with the law..(you will have to google this because I read it a long time ago in undergrad)   Many things make a person a pychopath and something they ALL have in common is lack of empathy and understandings of their emotions which Vic 100% has. 

Edited by Ser Dood

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On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 12:25 PM, Ser Dood said:

I was responding to a dumb comment with a dumb comment

ok explain why Trump is like Jaehaerys I then   whatever man

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26 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

ok explain why Trump is like Jaehaerys I then   whatever man

I think you need to read the original comment, what I posted was satire.....  An please do not assume my gender, 'man'

Edited by Ser Dood
spelling

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On 2/25/2019 at 5:37 PM, Ser Dood said:

The definition for psychopath (per my dictionary) is a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal of violent social behavior.  An unstable and aggressive person.  You think Vic is non violent, and stable?  or do you change the definition of words to suite your meaning then blather about it endlessly online?

I am going to go out on a limb and say yes a bunch of warriors in raiding based societies were pyscho.  If a bunch of psychopaths get together and make a city state, would you consider them all pyscho or just a different 'culture'?  If your culture is that of raping, stealing, killing, and taking people into slavery then joking about it and showing no remorse....  I'm going to go ahead and say you are all fucking psychos. 

If a small innocent toddler born in Russia is moved to Spain with foster parents who treat him terribly, and he starts killing, stealing, raping uncontrollably, is he pyscho or just a troubled youngster?  Did he just adapt to his culture?

Ted Bundy was considered a regular, intelligent kind guy to many, many people...  his actions of killing and raping made him a pyscho. 

So you admit that Psychopathy is a chronic mental disorder and then go on and say that entire cities can be made up entirely of people with this mental disorder that "banded together". I mean, doesn't it sound silly to you? Even a little bit?

Edited by Dofs

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6 minutes ago, Dofs said:

So you admit that Psychopathy is a chronic mental disorder and then go on and say that entire cities can be made up entirely of people with this mental disorder that "banded together". I mean, doesn't it sound silly to you? Even a little bit?

An unstable and aggressive person...

Would you leave your kids alone with Vic to take care of?  I wouldn't, he is a psycho. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Ser Dood said:

An unstable and aggressive person...

It's a mental disorder. You quoted it yourself.

27 minutes ago, Ser Dood said:

Would you leave your kids alone with Vic to take care of?  I wouldn't, he is a psycho. 

So, anyone with whom you wouldn't leave your kids to take care of has a mental disorder?

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On 2/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, Ser Dood said:

I quoted the dictionary, If you want to play online psychiatrist then so be it. 

I'm not sure if you misunderstood or deliberately misused your own quote but Vic suffers from no mental disorder and displays no behavioural characteristics that would be deemed abnormal by his peers or even by other Westerosi.

You're the one playing psychiatrist and it's clear you're bandying about words you don't understand.  The more you push your argument the clearer that is.

On 2/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, Ser Dood said:

Vic doesn't show remorse and justifies his violent actions, which there are man and they are incredibly violent. 

What makes him different from any other contemporary?  Violent =/= psycopathic. 

When the Ironborn take the Shield Isles Vic is disgusted that Euron and his cronies don't show the defeated Serries any honour and he regrets that no one pulled Talbert Serry out of the sea as he respected a brave and capable opponent.  It's war but Vic has a code and he is unhappy with Euron breaching it (as he does by selling the Shield Islanders into slavery rather than taking them as thralls).  Why would a psychopath be bothered by any of this?

No remorse? He wept when he killed his saltwife.  Euron got her pregnant and his culture's values demanded he kill her to avoid the shame (emasculation and cuckolding) that brought with it but that exposes the cultural toxicity of honour killing and how Vic had deep feelings for her (something a true psycopath would not).  Unless of course you think every honour killing you read about in the news is the result of a psychopath like Ted Bundy rather than a family member who feels forced to act by social and cultural pressures.

On 2/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, Ser Dood said:

If you are abnormally violent and show no remorse you are a psycho.. 

Vic is not abnormally violent.  If he returned from reaving and started murdering Ironborn for kicks without any remorse you might have a point but he follows his laws and customs and his violence is only unleashed in war or in reaving, i.e. to enemies.  This really is no different to anyone else.

As to remorse, see section above.  If you expect him to show remorse for killing enemies in warfare then apply that to the rest of Westeros and most people meet your rather silly definition of a psycopath.

I men here's a quote from one of the Liddle's:

A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."
 
Now that sounds pretty violent to me, maybe even abnormally so, and there's no hint of any remorse so the guy must be a psychopath, right?  Not just a fierce warrior talking of battle against enemies.  :rolleyes:
 
On 2/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, Ser Dood said:

Can you show me any example of Vic showing any remorse?  I remember he didn't immediately accept the Dusky woman, but that is about it.

Done above.  Why you think Vic is incapable of remorse or empathy and has only shallow emotional responses is the real mystery as it seems to ignore his character and look no further than the commission of acts of violence which are hardly shocking in Westeros.

On 2/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, Ser Dood said:

Edit: I do not understand where you get the idea a psycho needs to be able to manipulate and lie. 

I linked a checklist upthread.  Have a look and see if you think it fits Vic. 

Quite obviously as a psycopath has abnormal or abnormally violent characteristics he has to be able to conceal either his personality or his actions from those around him or he would be punished for his actions.  Hence the need for guile, deception and manipulation (or to be a complete loner with no contacts at all). 

On 2/26/2019 at 5:43 PM, Ser Dood said:

Many things make a person a pychopath and something they ALL have in common is lack of empathy and understandings of their emotions which Vic 100% has. 

It's precisely because many things make a psychopath that your attempt to apply the label to Vic is so misguided.  He does not lack empathy and he has a full emotional range.  He may be dumb and unimaginative but he is in no way mentally or behaviorally abnormal.

Please don't misuse a very specific word and apply it wholesale to generally violent or unpleasant actions.

On 2/27/2019 at 7:29 PM, Ser Dood said:

An unstable and aggressive person...

Would you leave your kids alone with Vic to take care of?  I wouldn't, he is a psycho. 

Jesus.  There are many people I would not leave my children with for a whole host of reasons but none of which revolve around me thinking that person is a psychopath.  Vic is not exactly a babysitter is he?  If however Vic had taken two children as hostages I would expect he could be relied on to keep them safe as doing or allowing any harm to befall them would be a stain on his honour and reputation (and diminish the strategic value of the hostages and the potential value of the ransom).

Vic ain't unhinged, pal, he's the Commander of the Iron Fleet, a seasoned battle captain, a limited but rational man and, according to his cultural norms, an honourable man.

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