Benjen Snow Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 I really hope that Sandor comes and kills Littlefinger to rescue Sansa somewhere down the line and that they eventually get married. Sandor is the knight in shining armour that Sansa has been waiting for all this time. I am unsure about the marriage part as it is really the unrealized infatuation that makes these two interesting in relation to each other best uncomsumated. I would love on the other hand to see Sandor show u in the Vale and attach himself as Sansa's bodyguard/servant/warrior. Just seeing Baelish sweat over this would be great. I doubt he could scheme around Sandor too much and plotting to kill Sandor could so easily backfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 So you're saying that if she had been raped, she would have become more reasonable and cognitively aware than before? Are you serious? Actually, I'm saying that it most likely would have had one of two results. It would have either A) Made her painfully aware of reality and turned her into a bitter, untrusting, jaded creature that would have been well suited to deal with the political arena in KL where you cannot trust anyone... or... Completely broken her mentally and turned her into a frightened, destroyed creature with no real sense of self and no emotional control or reason what-so-ever who lived in her own head (in a hellish constant replay of the event), oblivious to her surroundings, and cried continually... either way, it would have been a reality check and it would have been damned good reading (IMHO) as she represents a character stereotype/archetype that I generally despise. I'm still waiting to see if she'll grow out of that, but... There, of course, exist a myriad of other options, ranging from her shrugging it off and taking it in stride, to murderous rage, all the way to raging nymphomaniac... I just put in what I felt would've been the two most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still not king Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 That was back in the good ol days before modern forensic science and chemistry could detect that she'd poisoned them all for their life insurance. They "bought the farm". No, she got the farm. And a fine farm it was... You leave for a week and what happens? Your favourite thread is resurrected! *sits back and eats popcorn* Keep it coming, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Actually, I'm saying that it most likely would have had one of two results. It would have either A) Made her painfully aware of reality and turned her into a bitter, untrusting, jaded creature that would have been well suited to deal with the political arena in KL where you cannot trust anyone... or... Completely broken her mentally and turned her into a frightened, destroyed creature with no real sense of self and no emotional control or reason what-so-ever who lived in her own head (in a hellish constant replay of the event), oblivious to her surroundings, and cried continually... either way, it would have been a reality check and it would have been damned good reading (IMHO) as she represents a character stereotype/archetype that I generally despise. I'm still waiting to see if she'll grow out of that, but... There, of course, exist a myriad of other options, ranging from her shrugging it off and taking it in stride, to murderous rage, all the way to raging nymphomaniac... I just put in what I felt would've been the two most likely. Sansa has already been disillusioned quite thoroughly. (1)Her beloved fiance ordered her father's execution and then had her beaten whenever it pleased him. (2)Ser Dontos, whose life she risked a beating to save, literally sold her out. (3) As Littlefinger's "daughter" she's realizing that everyone has either been bought or can be bought, and as Sandor told her(a line she repeats to herself quite often), they're all liars. What separates her from the other characters(except her brothers Bran and Jon) is that she doesn't become vengeful and hateful or try to hurt anyone. She's forgiving, sweet-natured, and only wants to be left alone in peace and safety. I think this is a very good thing, because otherwise the series would indeed be as depressing and hopeless as some people accuse it of being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijjvra Visz Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Sansa has already been disillusioned quite thoroughly. (1)Her beloved fiance ordered her father's execution and then had her beaten whenever it pleased him. (2)Ser Dontos, whose life she risked a beating to save, literally sold her out. (3) As Littlefinger's "daughter" she's realizing that everyone has either been bought or can be bought, and as Sandor told her(a line she repeats to herself quite often), they're all liars. What separates her from the other characters(except her brothers Bran and Jon) is that she doesn't become vengeful and hateful or try to hurt anyone. She's forgiving, sweet-natured, and only wants to be left alone in peace and safety. I think this is a very good thing, because otherwise the series would indeed be as depressing and hopeless as some people accuse it of being. Just because Sansa isn't as ruthless and vengeful as some of the characters, doesn't make her stupid. And it doesn't make a raping going to bring her to 'reality' either. Like I've said, her rose colored glasses have been taken off. She's definately learning a lot, if you compare her from the begining of the series to the end of AFFC I think the persepective of how much Sansa has grown really comes to view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 This is my favorite ASoIaF topic. Other people can have all the debates about Jon's parentage they want or who'd beat whom in a fight; I prefer to talk SanSan. Did you guys notice Sansa's line to Ned in AGoT that she loves Joffrey "as much as Queen Naerys loved Aemon the Dragonknight"? Interesting that Sansa didn't realize the significance of the fact that Naerys loved a Kingsguard not her husband the king. Ned tells her Joff is no Aemon, and in ASoS, Joff himself identifies with Aegon the Unworthy. So I guess that left Sandor to play the role of Aemon. It's really not surprising that Sansa has her crush on Sandor; although he refuses to accept knighthood, he's one of the top warriors of their time and he was a KG when he offered to take her away with him and kill anyone who hurt her. It's practically something from a song and we know how much Sansa likes her songs. Sandor both mocks and admires Sansa for her courtesies and says what a "proper little lady" she is. Do you think he shares Littlefinger's thing for highborn women? He and Littlefinger do share similar backgrounds, their families having recently been elevated to the nobility and being as lowly born as it's possible to be while still being a noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteQueen Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 This is my favorite ASoIaF topic. Other people can have all the debates about Jon's parentage they want or who'd beat whom in a fight; I prefer to talk SanSan. SanSan -- I like that. Did you come up with it yourself? It's almost like Jack and Jackie (Kennedy) or Lennie Hayton and Lena Horne. Very cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 SanSan -- I like that. Did you come up with it yourself? It's almost like Jack and Jackie (Kennedy) or Lennie Hayton and Lena Horne. Very cool! Ha! No way. It was around long before I read ASoIaF. I actually disliked it at first but it's more convenient than typing out Sansa/Sandor. The only thing that's my own is referring to Sandor as 'Sandy.' On a related note, Tyrion reminisces about how Tysha pointed out that their first names were similar...Clearly Tyrion/Sansa was never meant to be because it's really TyTy and SanSan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijjvra Visz Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I never did realize the possible foreshadowing there when she said that about Joff and Queen Naerys, though now that you mention it... it's pretty damned ironic and I wonder if GRRM set it up that way on purpose. And if this were the -typical- fantasy story, we'd see Sansa falling in love with someone like Balon Swann perhaps, handsome and brave and all that. You know, beautiful maids either fall in love with someone handsome and noble in the stories OR fall in love with the Beast, who is -really- a kind hearted and thoughtful guy. Sandor isn't either of these, which is why the thing between him and Sansa continues to intrigue me. I get bored with Jon/Yigritte and themes like that. As for Sandor having both contempt and admiriation for Sansa, it could be in part that his family, until recently, were probably looking at nobles in the position most people look at movie stars today, we envy them, are disgusted with them, and wish we could be (in some instances anyway) like them or at least that 'famous'. At the same time, I think Sansa kind of represents something he lost when he was a kid and Gregor melted his face off. I think that was Sandor's rose colored glasses getting torn away, he wanted to be a knight, he thought knights were cool and awesome... and then he found out that most of them were not, and they made his brother one. So his contempt for Sansa is that she has these dreams about knights and romance and blah blah, but at the same time I think some part of him regrets losing that himself. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 As for Sandor having both contempt and admiriation for Sansa, it could be in part that his family, until recently, were probably looking at nobles in the position most people look at movie stars today, we envy them, are disgusted with them, and wish we could be (in some instances anyway) like them or at least that 'famous'. At the same time, I think Sansa kind of represents something he lost when he was a kid and Gregor melted his face off. I think that was Sandor's rose colored glasses getting torn away, he wanted to be a knight, he thought knights were cool and awesome... and then he found out that most of them were not, and they made his brother one. So his contempt for Sansa is that she has these dreams about knights and romance and blah blah, but at the same time I think some part of him regrets losing that himself. I agree. Whatever he was thinking/not thinking or doing/not doing in Sansa's bedroom the night of the Blackwater battle is as much if not more so about himself than Sansa. He threatens her and scares the hell out of her, but he doesn't harm her. I think being around Sansa reminds him of wanting to be a knight when he was a little boy, hence him continually mocking her about true knights*. It reminds me of Bran's desire to be a great knight of the Kingsguards when he grew up, and then him discovering the reality of it when a KG tossed him from a tower window. Like Sansa, however, Bran continues to be enamored of the ideal of knighthood even after he's experienced the reality. No one ever calls Bran stupid for his idealism, though. *The song Sansa offered to sing for him earlier, and the song he demanded that night, was "Florian and Jonquil" which includes line "All men are knights and all men are fools where women are concerned." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Snow Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 What separates her from the other characters(except her brothers Bran and Jon) is that she doesn't become vengeful and hateful or try to hurt anyone. She's forgiving, sweet-natured, and only wants to be left alone in peace and safety. I think this is a very good thing, because otherwise the series would indeed be as depressing and hopeless as some people accuse it of being. That is a great point about Sansa. She has always annoyed me with her lack of Starkiness (the opposite of Snarkiness) but I missed this quality about her. You are right she is far from bitter considering all she has been through and never refined her hate like Arya has. I am not sure how well it will serve her politically but......I hope this trait of hers remains. Hmmmmm, is it a touch of Nedness(Not referencing his honor here)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Hmmmmm, is it a touch of Nedness(Not referencing his honor here)? Yes, yes it is. Arya and Catelyn on the other hand are all about vengenace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Snow Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Yes, yes it is. Arya and Catelyn on the other hand are all about vengenace. A hearty thank you Red Candle you have in a sense rescued the character of Sansa for me. I will read her chapters with a new eye and remember her good side. Of late I mostly thought of her chapters as a chance to spy on that wicked Littlefinger. BTW am I the only one who finds Littlefingers name hilarious and alluding to his need to compensate for his less than grand family line and....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 BTW am I the only one who finds Littlefingers name hilarious and alluding to his need to compensate for his less than grand family line and....... Normally I'd agree but he did make Lysa scream quite loudly on their wedding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Snow Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Normally I'd agree but he did make Lysa scream quite loudly on their wedding... Yes...........lol.......he did. Well some are more creative and tenacious in their compensations. It would seem Master Baelish is among the most fervent of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonsdawn Posted May 11, 2007 Share Posted May 11, 2007 Sansa was trained to be a proper little lady. Courtesy is a lady's armour, and Alayne is her shield. Redcandle17 nailed it by saying she's forgiving - she's forgiven Sandor already. It's very likely her thoughts of him are helped along by the fact that he was still a Kingsguard (just) that night. (I love how you call him Sandy) And her Stark-ness has grown stronger since losing Lady (and him), she hasn't lost it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still not king Posted May 11, 2007 Share Posted May 11, 2007 Normally I'd agree but he did make Lysa scream quite loudly on their wedding... At that point I think Lysa was so high-strung he could've poked her with a stick and she'd still squeal in delight. But Littlefinger doesn't seem to mind his nickname, something I think he would if he was...challenged in that area. That's usually sensitive spot #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 12, 2007 Author Share Posted May 12, 2007 But Littlefinger doesn't seem to mind his nickname, something I think he would if he was...challenged in that area. That's usually sensitive spot #1. Agreed. "How little is it, do you know?" "His finger?" She blushed again. "I don't...I never..." And at least we can deduce that Littlefinger's special daddy-daughter rituals haven't gone that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Snow Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 And her Stark-ness has grown stronger since losing Lady (and him), she hasn't lost it at all. Good point. Perhaps, too many of us (myself included until recently) write Sansa off as a wanabee Southerner with very little Starkness to her. GRRM's characters are far from static so we should almost expect her to develop into something very different than the little girl with her head in the clouds, providing she survives long enough to do so. Also................SanSan..............ha ha...............the urge to merge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted May 12, 2007 Share Posted May 12, 2007 And at least we can deduce that Littlefinger's special daddy-daughter rituals haven't gone that far. I wonder why Myranda expected Alayne to even know that? Especially since she asked how little is it, as if she wanted an actual measurement rounded to the nearest 10th. Something tells me that Jaime and Cersei would have been very comfortable in the Vale... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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