Sandor/Sansa

[riposte]

ummmm...where to start.

Gravedigger brigger than Brienne, warhorse Stranger at Quiet Isle, lurching with the gait of one half-crippled, Elder Brother telling Brienne how he himself "died" in the battle of the Trident. If you do a re-read of the appropriate Brienne chapter in AFFC you will see the subtle (or not so subtle for us Sandor fans) hints.

There are also numerous discussions about these clues. You might do a search on "Gravedigger" or "Quiet Isle", etc. to find many of these topics.

Ok thanks, I will read it again, and see if I notice anything else.

[Trackrunner]

On the horse was probably the safest spot for her until they were beaten back.

That makes sense. But I imagine Sansa would have dropped dead of a heart attack if the Hound had later pulled her from the saddle himself, because the most logical thought process would have been, "OMGosh, he's stealing my horse and leaving me behind, the f*cker!" Or however Sansa would have phrased it.

Although some of us still think that if Sandor is alive but the Hound is dead, then Sandor is, to all intents and purposes, dead too and might as well be really dead.

That depends on how you define the Hound persona. If you think the Hound embodies all of Clegane's ferocity, scathing remarks, and devil-may-care attitude, then yes, Sandor may as well be dead. But if you see the Hound only as that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten, than Sandor can still live on as a badass without it.

[Rogozhin]

That depends on how you define the Hound persona. If you think the Hound embodies all of Clegane's ferocity, scathing remarks, and devil-may-care attitude, then yes, Sandor may as well be dead. But if you see the Hound only as that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten, than Sandor can still live on as a badass without it.

There is also the tale the elder brother on that monk isle told Brienne, of his own "rebirth" to a more peaceful life after his last battle on the Trident. She doesn't understand why he tells her the story, but it's connection to The Hound's "death" is obvious.

My own prediction about the eventual re-emergence of the new, improved Sandor is that he has to go and stop his brother, also reborn but to a more "monstrous" form. I don't think Sandor will fight the Qyburnstein's Monster in Cersei's trial. Martin will build up the QM first, having it kill lots of people as a terror weapon of sorts. Then, as these Golems and Frankensteins are wont to do, it runs amok and out of control of Qyburn or whoever controls it at the moment and yada yada yada eventually comes face to face with the other Clegane brother, who either is actively seeking it or not. Of course, traditionally the outcome would be clear, but as was seen in the match between Red Viper and The Mountain Mk 1, Martin sometimes surprises us. Still, I think either both Cleganes die at this point or Sandor kills his monstrous brother.

Whew, one last thing: even if Sandor triumphs against The Qyburnstein's Monster, I predict the infamy of his old persona (in form of the Hound helm used in atrocities commited by Rorge and then Lem?) unfairly catches up to him and he is either lynched by a mob or caught and executed by someone like Jaime. One of those "throw the book to the wall" moments ala Red Wedding...

[Wik]

Whew, one last thing: even if Sandor triumphs against The Qyburnstein's Monster, I predict the infamy of his old persona (in form of the Hound helm used in atrocities commited by Rorge and then Lem?) unfairly catches up to him and he is either lynched by a mob or caught and executed by someone like Jaime. One of those "throw the book to the wall" moments ala Red Wedding...

Now that you mention it I could see that. Again with my idea that Jaime is doomed to die by the end of the series, I have to assume Sandor will suffer a similiar fate. These men (and others like them) have such a reputation of betrayel, and or evil doing that even if they have changed, not enough people who care will be around or willing to realize it and they will bite the dust. Very sad as Jaime and Sandor are 2 of my favorite charecters.

[the silent speaker]

If you think the Hound embodies all of Clegane's ferocity, scathing remarks, and devil-may-care attitude, then yes, Sandor may as well be dead. But if you see the Hound only as that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten, than Sandor can still live on as a badass without it.

But then anything connecting Sansa with dogs is a red herring, because Sansa is not then tied with The Hound. Can't have it both ways.

[sholtzma]

But then anything connecting Sansa with dogs is a red herring, because Sansa is not then tied with The Hound. Can't have it both ways.

Well, not necessarily. If she doesn't know that the Hound has "died" then she is going to still think of him that way until there's another identity to replace it. There's a lot of symbolism with huge shaggy friendly dogs in AFFC relating to Sandor - which the author is using to beat us over the head that Sandor's a different man than what he was but at the same time show us that it is Sandor. It will be very interesting to see what new identity Sandor picks up in the sixth book (I would assume if we ever see him again, it will be in book 6). He may pick up a new dog-like identity, or change completely to a new sigil.

[Trackrunner]

But then anything connecting Sansa with dogs is a red herring, because Sansa is not then tied with The Hound. Can't have it both ways.

Sandor is still a dog, even if he doesn't have a doggy name. Hence the gravedigger leaning down to scratch Dog behind the ears. Why would GRRM put that little clue there if Sandor were no longer doggish?

[Wik]

Having a Sandor PoV would have been pretty cool ESPECIALLY after AFFC, so we could get to know this new, or altered persona

[Gwywen]

Sandor is still a dog, even if he doesn't have a doggy name. Hence the gravedigger leaning down to scratch Dog behind the ears. Why would GRRM put that little clue there if Sandor were no longer doggish?

Sandor is just a man who loves dogs, The Hound is merely his alter ego, a mercyless killer and a very unpleasant person. I think that's what GRRM meant when he told us the Hound is dead. It doesn't automatically mean Sandor not liking dogs anymore.

Having a Sandor PoV would have been pretty cool ESPECIALLY after AFFC, so we could get to know this new, or altered persona

I hope we'll get to know him better in the future. He still has a role to play and some unfinished business.

[litechick]

I think the reason he's so fascinating is that we don't get to see inside his head. We only have what we glean from other characters. Because of that I can interpret him in a way that pleases me best.

[NeoQBirdie]

I think the reason why most of us (?) seem to enjoy the idea of Sansan getting together can be summed up pretty succinctly.

Sansa appears to genuinely like Sandor. (Or, if you like, she genuinely has feelings for him.) And vice versa.

In the reader's modern day heads, this is a powerful, striking sort of relationship, since we'd all much rather be with someone whom we liked rather than have our relationships arranged around us. I think whether or not it's a good match (probably not) is irrelevant. It seems to be human inclination to fall for people who aren't right for us. And that's what makes it so fun to read about!

Anyway, here's to Sandor Clegane being both alive and 'at rest', and to his eventually crossing paths with Sansa again in book 6.

[the silent speaker]

Sandor is still a dog, even if he doesn't have a doggy name. Hence the gravedigger leaning down to scratch Dog behind the ears. Why would GRRM put that little clue there if Sandor were no longer doggish?

See, then you're backing into the other head of the dog, wherein the Hound is not "that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten" but all of Sandor Clegane, and then the Hound is not dead either.

I'm not asserting that either theory is of itself impossible, mind (in this set of posts, anyway, though I personally believe neither). I'm only pointing out that there are two separate theories under the larger Gravedogger heading, and their arguments are sometimes at cross purposes to each other rather than parallel and reinforcing.

[sholtzma]

See, then you're backing into the other head of the dog, wherein the Hound is not "that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten" but all of Sandor Clegane, and then the Hound is not dead either.

I'm not asserting that either theory is of itself impossible, mind (in this set of posts, anyway, though I personally believe neither). I'm only pointing out that there are two separate theories under the larger Gravedogger heading, and their arguments are sometimes at cross purposes to each other rather than parallel and reinforcing.

I don't see any conflict with liking animal dogs but at the same time peeling off the orange skin that is the snarling, ugly Hound persona that Sandor shows the world. Especially when using this as a literary device in a fantasy novel to beat it into the head of the reader that Sandor is alive and healing on the Quiet Isle.

I would be interested in hearing your differing theory!

[Trackrunner]

See, then you're backing into the other head of the dog, wherein the Hound is not "that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten" but all of Sandor Clegane, and then the Hound is not dead either.

I'm not really sure I understand this. Are you saying all doggish aspects of Sandor actually belong to the Hound, and that Sandor can only be a dog person if he is also the kind of person that would cut a boy in half? I think the Quiet Isle chapter disproves this. The Elder Brother states the Hound is dead, and yet the gravedigger associates with a dog.

[Tansele]

I just noticed some similarity between Sandor/Sansa behaviour at the two main tourneys we see in the books - the Hand's tourney and Joff's nameday tourney.

I mean at the Hand's tourney the Hound saves Loras from Gregor. Now, I don't know until this day why would he actually do it. I have some theories but I just don't know. For all we see, the Hound never even spoke to Loras and he certainly would not have any friendship for him. At that point in the story, the Hound is a person who rides down an unarmed boy and cuts him in half and laughs about it. Why would he then help another "helpless" boy and go against his brother who he fears? It's very un-Hound like behaviour.

And then Sansa speaks for another helpless person at Joff's tourney - she saves ser Dontos with her lady armour although the man is a stranger to her. And the Hound actually backs her story and helps her.

So is there a paralel?

[Gwywen]

I think it wasn't about Loras, it was about stopping his brother. Trying to undo what his stupid brother was going to do.

Sandor's real courage at that moment was not killing Gregor. He had the ultimate, almost legitemate chance to do so, but he didn't. I think that's a token of his character; his Sandor-character, not his Hound(-cutting-unarmed-boys-in-half-)character.

[Wik]

I think it wasn't about Loras, it was about stopping his brother. Trying to undo what his stupid brother was going to do.

Sandor's real courage at that moment was not killing Gregor. He had the ultimate, almost legitemate chance to do so, but he didn't. I think that's a token of his character; his Sandor-character, not his Hound(-cutting-unarmed-boys-in-half-)character.

I may be mis-remembering but doesn't GRRM kinda point out that the Hound was simply stoping Gregor from his fit, rather then saving Loras? I just assumed thats the way of it, thought I read something specificslly touching on it though.

I know the Hound is afraid of fire, but does it ever say he is truly afraid of Gregor? I can vaguely recall a conversation (most likely with Sansa) where he talks about Gregor but I never got the impression that he was plain out afraid of his older brother, rather just despised him for obvious reasons.

[sholtzma]

I may be mis-remembering but doesn't GRRM kinda point out that the Hound was simply stoping Gregor from his fit, rather then saving Loras? I just assumed thats the way of it, thought I read something specificslly touching on it though.

I know the Hound is afraid of fire, but does it ever say he is truly afraid of Gregor? I can vaguely recall a conversation (most likely with Sansa) where he talks about Gregor but I never got the impression that he was plain out afraid of his older brother, rather just despised him for obvious reasons.

This is an important insight into parts of his character. He defends Loras but never takes an opportunity to kill Gregor in that swordfight (the book says something like "not once did he strike at his brother's unprotected face" or some such). Yet we never hear him say that he is afraid of his brother Gregor, but somehow....Sansa knows this. Or she assumes this. I wonder. If he were really afraid of his brother, he wouldn't have intervened with Loras, but...perhaps he was afraid but did the right thing anyway. Sansa may have the right of it. I am not sure.

[valyrian dragonlord]

A: isn't sandor dead?

B: uncat + LF = interesting senario

uncat finds out about LF+ Sansa = hmmm.

[Stratonice]

See, then you're backing into the other head of the dog, wherein the Hound is not "that part of Clegane that made him run down and murder a boy or watch as Sansa was beaten" but all of Sandor Clegane, and then the Hound is not dead either.

I'm not asserting that either theory is of itself impossible, mind (in this set of posts, anyway, though I personally believe neither). I'm only pointing out that there are two separate theories under the larger Gravedogger heading, and their arguments are sometimes at cross purposes to each other rather than parallel and reinforcing.

One aspect in this that I haven't seen anyone mentioning yet is, of course, that without the Hound-persona he's still a Clegane and their sigil is of three black dogs on yellow. Most nobles in Westeros seems to identify a lot with their sigils (wolves, dragons, lions, etc...) so I don't see Sandors symbolic connection to dogs being specifically tied to his Hound-persona at all. I would rather say that the nickname/alias (whatever you want to call it) comes from an already existing connection to dogs.