Was Ser Hugh killed to be kept quiet or because The Mountain likes to kill?

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She knew Jon had been investigating the parentage of her children

How'd she know that? I dont remember her saying she knew. Pycelle, sure

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

and she feared that he may have told Lysa something about that.

I suppose.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

According to Varys, Cersei intended to murder Robert during the melée which is why she publicly forbid him to join the fighters, goading him into defying her and definitely participating. Ned felt that was improper for a king and dissuaded his old buddy, but we cannot rule out the possibility that Cersei had an actual plan how to kill Robert during the melée.

For sure, but that's really hot and charges of regicide could be overwhelming. A drunk and an accident is the surer (and what happened) outcome. (Maybe Robert got decided to get extra sauced when Cersei yelled at him too)

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Gregor would be the best candidate there since I don't see anybody else (aside from Jaime, who never indicates to have been privy to such a conspiracy) having the audacity or strength to try to do this.

And if he was Cersei's man for that, she could very well have also told him to murder somebody as unimportant as Hugh.

I don't think raw strength is needed here, more like quick stab em with pointy end style.

I understand the want to put Gregor as henchmen number one, but we really don't know. Also it's counterintuitive for Cersei to kill Hugh

12 hours ago, Aebram said:

Hold a moment.  From Lysa's confession, we know that she  killed her husband, and that Littlefinger put her up to it; but we don't know why. My impression was that it must have been Cersei who asked Littlefinger to arrange it. I don't think Littlefinger or Lysa had any other reason to want Jon dead. Am I mistaken?

We do know why, it's so Petyr can create discord and thrive

Quote

He wondered which of them had sent the footpad to silence the Stark boy, and whether they had truly conspired at the death of Lord Arryn. If the old Hand had been murdered, it was deftly and subtly done. Men of his age died of sudden illness all the time. In contrast, sending some oaf with a stolen knife after Brandon Stark struck him as unbelievably clumsy. And wasn't that peculiar, come to think on it … Tyrion shivered.

Now there was a nasty suspicion. Perhaps the direwolf and the lion were not the only beasts in the woods, and if that was true, someone was using him as a catspaw. Tyrion Lannister hated being used.

Quote

Tears, tears, tears," she sobbed hysterically. "No need for tears . . . but that's not what you said in King's Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon's wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever . . . you were always clever, I told Father that, I said Petyr's so clever,

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I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

Cersei, like Ned and Hugh are just play things for Petyr

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

How'd she know that? I dont remember her saying she knew. Pycelle, sure

She knew. She tells people when discussing the death of Jon Arryn.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure, but that's really hot and charges of regicide could be overwhelming. A drunk and an accident is the surer (and what happened) outcome. (Maybe Robert got decided to get extra sauced when Cersei yelled at him too)

LOL, no. The boar was Cersei being very lucky. Just because Robert is completely drunk doesn't mean he will get himself killed. And Cersei only went with that after Ned told her he would tell Robert about the twincest. She couldn't foresee that they would be facing a huge boar now the circumstances if or when they were facing it.

In fact, this whole thing is so tangential that you cannot really say Robert was murdered. Lancel feels that he killed him, but that's just his guilt talking.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think raw strength is needed here, more like quick stab em with pointy end style.

Possibly, but Robert wasn't that bad of a fighter and they were fighting with tourney weapons. Dealing him a mortal blow and not looking like an actual assassin who wielded real steel would have been kind of difficult.

But in any case - I just don't think Cersei had a large pool of willing kingslayers at her disposal.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I understand the want to put Gregor as henchmen number one, but we really don't know. Also it's counterintuitive for Cersei to kill Hugh.

Not if she actually thought Hugh may have known something about the twincest. And not if she knew Ned wanted to question him ... which he did, and which she could have easily found out.

[Mark of the West]

He was sacrificed at the altar of Gregor's malice, not much else.  That he may have known where and who was doing what to whom as it relates to the former Hand of the King was a fortunate happenstance for the schemers involved. Relying on the random availability of an open gorget to conduct a targeted hit seems sloppy. 

[John Suburbs]

On 5/6/2022 at 3:52 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Like what?

I'd think Cersei would be very interested in learning of Jon's murder.

 

Imo, It was all Petyr bribing the game master like Ser Snail did back when. It was also Petyr knowing Gregors skill vs Hugh's skill, or severe lack there of.

That Jon was investigating her incest. Keeping that quiet would be vastly more important to her than who killed JA.

But sure, Petyr also has a motive here. He doesn't want Ned to learn about the incest too soon, and at the same time he wants to foster greater mistrust of the Lannisters.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger (and perhaps Lysa as well) know about the twincest which is why they decided that Lysa sent the letter to Cat implicating the Lannisters. They know the Lannisters have an even better motive to murder Jon.

I'd be surprised if either Petyr or JA told Lysa about the twincest. This is the single most explosive piece information in the realm and Lysa is too unstable. Who knows what she would do with it? Plus, there's no need for her to know.

Maybe she could have puzzled it out herself of gotten it from some other source, but I don't see anything to suggest that she did.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'd be surprised if either Petyr or JA told Lysa about the twincest. This is the single most explosive piece information in the realm and Lysa is too unstable. Who knows what she would do with it? Plus, there's no need for her to know.

Maybe she could have puzzled it out herself of gotten it from some other source, but I don't see anything to suggest that she did.

It doesn't matter if Lysa knew or not - Littlefinger definitely knew. But she could have known, because she may have wondered why the hell she should tell Cat that the Lannisters murdered Jon - if she doesn't know about a potential motive there she would not think that it makes sense to write such a letter. And she still praises Petyr for his genius there during her rant in ASoS.

Lysa isn't that stupid, either. She is a crucial piece of Littlefinger's plan and had the strength to keep her lords and knights out of the war - which isn't something she would have done if she hadn't known what the whole thing was all about (Littlefinger gaining enough status so she could marry him without causing a big scandal).

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She knew. She tells people when discussing the death of Jon Arryn.

Citation please?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. The boar was Cersei being very lucky. Just because Robert is completely drunk doesn't mean he will get himself killed. And Cersei only went with that after Ned told her he would tell Robert about the twincest. She couldn't foresee that they would be facing a huge boar now the circumstances if or when they were facing it.

In fact, this whole thing is so tangential that you cannot really say Robert was murdered. Lancel feels that he killed him, but that's just his guilt talking.

Boar hunting is dangerous, when your under the influence it's downright suicidal. Which is basically what Cersei says. 

(Obviously Robert didn't realize how much alcohol he was ingesting)

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Possibly, but Robert wasn't that bad of a fighter and they were fighting with tourney weapons. Dealing him a mortal blow and not looking like an actual assassin who wielded real steel would have been kind of difficult.

But in any case - I just don't think Cersei had a large pool of willing kingslayers at her disposal.

He could be the heavy weight champion, it wouldn't matter if he was under the influence. Some of the greatest drag racers of our time have perished from drinking and driving. Cognition goes, along with balance and even basic reasoning, warning, do not operate heavy machinery or tourneys.

For sure, I would argue Cersei only has Lancel as a kingslayer at her disposal, (well, I guess Jaime too)

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not if she actually thought Hugh may have known something about the twincest. And not if she knew Ned wanted to question him ... which he did, and which she could have easily found out.

But he didn't, and we don't have any information that says she suspected Hugh of knowing. 

Plus if he knew, then why did she think he was silent?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't matter if Lysa knew or not - Littlefinger definitely knew. But she could have known, because she may have wondered why the hell she should tell Cat that the Lannisters murdered Jon - if she doesn't know about a potential motive there she would not think that it makes sense to write such a letter. And she still praises Petyr for his genius there during her rant in ASoS.

Lysa isn't that stupid, either. She is a crucial piece of Littlefinger's plan and had the strength to keep her lords and knights out of the war - which isn't something she would have done if she hadn't known what the whole thing was all about (Littlefinger gaining enough status so she could marry him without causing a big scandal).

If you look at her last words, though, it's clear that she killed Jon "For Robert, and for us," not because she knew anything about the twincest. And then she sent the letter to Cat, as Petyr instructed her, to throw the trail off her own crime -- not to start any investigation of what Jon was looking into.

So she killed Jon because he was going to send her Sweetrobin away -- Stannis or Tywin, it made no matter to her -- and she thought Petyr was helping her because he wanted to be with her, which of course is what Petyr would want her to believe even though he was the one with the ulterior motive.

She kept the knights of the Vale home in order to protect her sweet son -- again, not because she was in on any deeper scheme by Petyr. She didn't need to know about the twincest in order to believe Petyr would one day marry her. And, yeah, she is pretty stupid.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If you look at her last words, though, it's clear that she killed Jon "For Robert, and for us," not because she knew anything about the twincest. And then she sent the letter to Cat, as Petyr instructed her, to throw the trail off her own crime -- not to start any investigation of what Jon was looking into.

Yes, Lysa has her own very immediate motive to murder Jon. That's not in doubt. Lysa is also a very fearful person, so when Petyr told her to write a letter to Cat of all people she would want to know why. She is jealous of Catelyn, after all. And anyone would ask Littlefinger why she should write that she believed the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn when she thought they didn't have a motive.

You also have to keep the whole timeline thing under consideration. The letter was delivered to Cat by a member of Robert's party, meaning the decision to write and send the letter was made when Petyr and Lysa already knew Robert would travel to Winterfell and that he would most likely make Ned the new Hand ... but before Lysa herself had fled KL.

Cersei tried to hand young Robert to Tywin after Jon's death, so there was a clear conflict there between Lysa and Cersei, something that only started to happen after Jon's death.

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

She kept the knights of the Vale home in order to protect her sweet son -- again, not because she was in on any deeper scheme by Petyr. She didn't need to know about the twincest in order to believe Petyr would one day marry her. And, yeah, she is pretty stupid.

That is just what she pretends - Lysa is mad with love and self-delusional in this regard, but she is not completely stupid. She keeps her men at home because she wants her father and Cat to suffer. And she does await Littlefinger's message that he is going to come. They clearly agreed that she would side with whatever side Petyr wanted them to be on, if they were to give him a great lordship in exchange.

[John Suburbs]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:54 AM, Lord Varys said:

Yes, Lysa has her own very immediate motive to murder Jon. That's not in doubt. Lysa is also a very fearful person, so when Petyr told her to write a letter to Cat of all people she would want to know why. She is jealous of Catelyn, after all. And anyone would ask Littlefinger why she should write that she believed the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn when she thought they didn't have a motive.

You also have to keep the whole timeline thing under consideration. The letter was delivered to Cat by a member of Robert's party, meaning the decision to write and send the letter was made when Petyr and Lysa already knew Robert would travel to Winterfell and that he would most likely make Ned the new Hand ... but before Lysa herself had fled KL.

Cersei tried to hand young Robert to Tywin after Jon's death, so there was a clear conflict there between Lysa and Cersei, something that only started to happen after Jon's death.

That is just what she pretends - Lysa is mad with love and self-delusional in this regard, but she is not completely stupid. She keeps her men at home because she wants her father and Cat to suffer. And she does await Littlefinger's message that he is going to come. They clearly agreed that she would side with whatever side Petyr wanted them to be on, if they were to give him a great lordship in exchange.

Eh, the motivation to write the letter is easy: to deflect any suspicion away from her to the Lannisters. Lysa would accept that rationale out of her own self-interest. 

As for the timeline, yes, of course they wrote the letter after they knew Robert would travel to Winterfell, but that didn't have to be before Lysa fled to Dragonstone. The same message that brought news of Arryn's death to Winterfell also said she had already left the capital. Since Robert would waste no time informing Ned of Jon's death, we can assume Lysa fled right away. It would take some time to get everything ready for a royal progress, so it would be an easy matter for Lysa to write the letter and either get it back to the royal party before it got underway, or send it with someone who joined the party en route.

Actually, it was Tywin who made an offer to foster Sweetrobin, and it went directly to Robert, not Cersei. And it is unlikely that this only happened after Jon died since Lysa fled so quickly.

Not completely stupid, but pretty stupid, and willing to accept anything that Petyr tells her as long as he says it will one day bring them together. So there is very little reason for her to be suspicious about the letter: it's all part of the plan and there is no reason to tell her of the twincest for her to go along with it.

[GOTSeriesfan]

The Mountain killed him due to his bloodlust, nothing more. Ser Hugh didn't know anything about Jon's investigation on Cersei's kids, but his death at Gregor's hand, a Lannister servant, was just used to mount tension between the Lannisters and Starks.