Jon Snow, the Coldheart

[csuszka1948]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:03 AM, Many-Faced Votary said:

If these people spent one tenth of the energy they expend on defending Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Janos Slynt, Bowen Marsh, et al. on (re)reading the text and acknowledging other posters' well-reasoned responses and refutations, we could actually have productive conversations even if we disagreed.

But, of course, I am aware that they most likely aren't interested in such.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't really understand how can Bowen Marsh put into the same category with the first four.

Yes, he was a coward, bigoted as hell and didn't agree with Jon on almost anything, but he obeyed him until the Pink Letter arrived, Jon read it out aloud and proclaimed that he wants to march an army on Winterfell while the rest of the NW goes under Tormund to Hardhome.

From Bowen Marsh's POV, Jon dabbled in magic to keep Mance (a known oathbreaker) alive and sent him to Winterfell to steal Ramsay's bride (because she is his sister) and was about to march a wildling army on the North, declaring war against the crown. His worst fears regarding Jon just have been confirmed.

If he and his group always planned to assassinate Jon, then why did they commit the act the day after 3 thousand wildlings were allowed into Castle Black? Why did they commit it so openly? It doesn't make any sense. 

They acted out of desperation, genuinely believing that killing Jon is the only way to save the Watch, thus the tears. The fact that they will likely be killed at the beginning of TWOW only proves that they didn't act (primarily) out of self-interest.

[LongRider]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:13 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Pink Letter arrived, Jon read it out aloud and proclaimed that he wants to march an army on Winterfell

Jon made no such proclamation.   He simply asked for help to make Ramsay accountable for his threat to Jon.  

Quote

 

"The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

"The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

The roar was all he could have hoped for,

 

He did not order anyone from the NW or the free folk to go with him, and the roar he hears doesn't tell how many, or how few, were considering it. 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 6:13 PM, csuszka1948 said:

From Bowen Marsh's POV, Jon dabbled in magic to keep Mance (a known oathbreaker) alive and sent him to Winterfell to steal Ramsay's bride (because she is his sister) and was about to march a wildling army on the North, declaring war against the crown. His worst fears regarding Jon just have been confirmed.

Quite a statement, hmmmm, we don't have Bowen's POV, where does he say Jon was dabbling in magic to send Mance away?  Please, refresh my memory.    Also, I missed Jon declaring war against crown, could you show me that quote so I can read it for myself, please?  His worst fears of Jon just confirmed?  I'd say his worst delusions about Jon got the better of him.  

Have to agree with @Many-Faced Votary Bowen does belong with these creeps, he plotted with Slynt and Thorne and mentioned a letter Tywin sent to him.  They wanted to throw the upcoming LC election to Slynt, fortunately, that did not happen.

Quote

The sound of voices echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. "I don't know," a man was saying, in a voice thick with doubts. "Maybe if I knew the man better . . . Lord Stannis didn't have much good to say of him, I'll tell you that."
"When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."

"Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."
Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. “My lords,” he said with cold courtesy.

“What are you doing here, bastard?” Thorne asked.

“Bathing. But don’t let me spoil your plotting.” Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.

 

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Jon made no such proclamation.   He simply asked for help to make Ramsay accountable for his threat to Jon.  

He did not order anyone from the NW or the free folk to go with him, and the roar he hears doesn't tell how many, or how few, were considering it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, it's pretty obvious that many wildlings were going to follow him after hearing it and that's exactly what he was going for with reading the letter out aloud. He collected an army of wildlings to march on Winterfell.

(We know the plan wasn't as simple and stupid as marching on Winterfell, but Bowen didn't)

He didn't order anyone to march with him, since he felt he cannot order anyone to break their vows. Instead, he ordered the NW to go to Hardhome under the leadership of Tormund to save wildlings despite it was (likely) an unpopular and risky mission because he felt this is the right thing to do and doesn't force them to break their vows.

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

 

Quite a statement, hmmmm, we don't have Bowen's POV, where does he say Jon was dabbling in magic to send Mance away?  Please, refresh my memory. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's pretty obvious since Mance Rayder was seen being burned alive, but the letter claims (and Jon doesn't even try to deny it!) that he is somehow alive and was sent to Winterfell by Jon to take rescue Arya. According to the Pink letter (whose contents Jon didn't deny), this was a conspiracy cooked up by Stannis, Jon and Melisandre.

(We know that Jon didn't plan to send Mance to Winterfell but Bowen didn't)

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

  Also, I missed Jon declaring war against crown, could you show me that quote so I can read it for myself, please?  His worst fears of Jon just confirmed?  I'd say his worst delusions about Jon got the better of him.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He sent Mance Rayder to steal the bride of the Lord of Winterfell and isn't willing to send her back, that's an openly treasonous act against the crown. (Still, that could maybe pass.)

Most importantly, he announced he is planning to march to Winterfell without even trying to negotiate or giving battle close to the Wall. That's declaring war against the crown - whose authority, after Stannis' death, is unquestionable - and if Jon loses, the entire Watch will be held accountable and punished.

Also, what's Jon's plan if he happens to win and take Winterfell? He cannot just go back to the Wall after such an act.

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Have to agree with @Many-Faced Votary Bowen does belong with these creeps, he plotted with Slynt and Thorne and mentioned a letter Tywin sent to him.  They wanted to throw the upcoming LC election to Slynt, fortunately, that did not happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is a coward and is bigoted against the wildlings but he genuinely wants the Watch to survive and he believes the best way to do that is to acquire help from the crown. That's pretty different from Slynt who is primarily vying for power and Thorne who is vying for revenge (although I don't really understand why does Thorne of all people side with Tywin who sent him to the Wall).

Obviously, he isn't a sympathetic character except perhaps in the last chapter.

Again, it's important to note that the assassination happened AFTER 3 thousand wildlings passed. That's literally the worst time to commit such an act - if he always wanted to kill Jon, he should have done so before the wildlings have arrived.