The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Lee-Sensei]

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean, honestly though do we have any quotes about it, I can't remember. However, I am reading Cersei's chapters in AFfC right now. I don't know what to tell you, but...she is paranoid about everything and everyone all the time. You are right, the bastards were no threat to her....but neither is Mace Tyrell (who she has accused of being a threat like 5 times in this chapter), Margerry Tyrell (who she goes on to try to destroy the life of later in this book), or Kevan Lannister (yes, she in her own mind suspects Kevan of betraying her). Like, I went ahead and did more research due to other comments here about personality disorder, and Cersei has essentially every symptom of paranoid personality disorder. You can say she wouldn't see Barra as a threat...but every single part of her own POV chapters...suggest she would. Unlike Tywin, we actually see into Cersei's mind...and I am 100% sure, even if she killed them partially to be vindicitive...it was also because she was paranoid and saw them as a threat. 

Also, Catelyn sees Jon as a threat, but doesn't she think Jon's mom is Wylla or ,...did she think she is Ashara Dayne, I honestly can't remember. Anyways, we also see her mind, and I don't think she is really paranoid at all...and she still sees Jon as a threat. People see their husband's bastards as threats, even if they aren't really. 

I wasn't saying that she wouldn't see Barra as a threat. She does. I'm just saying that it's completely irrational and she's in that position, because she chose to commit crimes that would destabilize the country.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:26 PM, Craving Peaches said:

And I never claimed you did. I was saying that what you said gave the impression that someone could never be a psychopath due to genetics alone.

Yea, sure, I get it. But your impression's not on me, nor anyone's.

On 10/2/2023 at 6:26 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Source? I asked someone working in that area and they said it was impossible for someone to be a psychopath due to just genetics, but where are you getting a 50/50 from? I want to read more on the topic.

I haven't read all that many psychology books (maybe 3), so I kinda rely on people I know with my opinion here.

A more nailed down version of my viewpoint (I base on what some said to me), is that genetical factors are equally important compared to the effect of nurture, but they alone don't make nobody a psychopath or anything alike. (Take this as a technical absolute, not a theoretical one.)

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He uses the word narcissist (which is what I am arguing for) in the same quote, which again…makes my point for me. 

Okay this is exhausting. I don‘t even disagree with you all, but you are refusing to read what I am actually arguing. It’s seriously exhausting. How can I be more clear : Cersei is one of the worst people in the series. I agree. She is a horrible mother. I agree. I think you all are using the word sociopath wrong. I am arguing over WHICH personality disorder she has, NOT whether she is evil/a bad mother. Did you’ll know someone can love their children AND be a bad mother? 

Also Euron is a father. The worst parent in the series is obviously Euron. He rips the tongues out of his children’s head and treats them as slaves. Honestly, the fact that y’all keep saying just as evil, tells me we are not having the same conversation. I don’t think Cersei is as evil as others because she doesn’t specifically want to hurt others. She wants other things and she hurts others to get those things. I think Tywin, Ramsay, and Euron all get off on the pain of others. They WANT to hurt others and cause pain. Ramsay want it on an individual level. He likes torturing people. Like he really likes it. Euron likes it both on an individual level (I think he enjoys tormenting individuals very much) and also on a grand level, where he sees death and destruction as the goal rather than the unfortunate side effect.

Tywin, while on the surface appears similar to Cersei, I think underneath he is basically Euron. He also gets off on causing destruction + he wanta everyone to bow down to him just like Cersei does. Also, Tywin was perfectly fine with Joffrey dying. I want to point out this KEY difference. Tywin is okay with or even maybe actively likes Tyrion dying and Joffrey dying. Cersei doesn’t want her children to die. Maybe that seems too basic, but she actually cares whether they live or die. I think there is a scene toward the end of AFfC where it is clear she wants to see Tommen because she wants to see Tommen. If you want to make the argument that is merely because ahe wants to be loved…okay I guess. But at least she wants that. Tywin doesn’t give a shit. 

So to summarize again : I think Cersei is a top 5 evil character in these books. I think she is naricisstic and gives 0 shits about 98% of the human population. HOWEVER, she does slightly care. She has some (if very small) empathy for a few people. For that matter, I think Tywin does, too. Tywin is my most hated character in the series, and I STILL don’t think he is a sociopath (honestly the word itself is vague and doesn’t even have on concrete or even accepted definition). However, and this is important, I do not think Cersei is AS EVIL as Ramsay, Euron, or even Tywin, as I don’t think she enjoys torture, she merely doesn’t care. She is indifferent to their feelings or the pain she causes. She doesn’t kill Robert’s bastards because she lieks killing, she merely wants to remove a threat to her children and cares less about their lives. Ramsay, Euron, and Tywin all ENJOY suffering and death and WANT to cause it. They get off on the pain and suffering of others. Ramsay could care less about the greater struggle or some greater goal, he just enjoys torturing Theon. Euron has no greater plan or importance to torture and kill Aeron, he juat likes making Aeron suffer. Finally, Tywin gained nothing through Elia Martell’s death, but she made his daughter look foolish, so he wanted her “punished”. Same for Tysha (and Tyrion). The punishment was obviously meant to humiliate and torture both parties, and Tywin liked it. 

Honestly though, all y’all, we fundamentally agree. Please stop arguing like I am disagreeing with you. I am not. I agree with on 99% of the details, just not the wording. We are arguing over semantics basically. 

 

One edit : She is 100% an abuser with Jaime. As someone who survived…several abusive relationships (my father and one ex). It’s complicated. One of the hardest parts to deal with…was that they did actually love me but that did not mean they didn’t abuse me. Both can be true. I think Cersei does love Jaime in a way, just super outlandishly self-centered in how she loves him. Maybe you could say she loved what he gave her…but I’d argue she loved the idea of him too (not the reality, Jaime is very different then how…all of his family perceives him). 

I don't remember everyone involved in this conversation before, but I was doing some research today about the word "sociopath" and I found this : "On the other hand, sociopaths intend to harm others and often derive pleasure in the act. They aren't concerned with what others think of them; they lack the narcissist's preoccupation with image, which frequently translates to an inability to hold a job and maintain relationships" 

Basically to summarize, sociopaths don't care about what other people think about them. They don't care whether they or liked or not. Cersei cares very much about what Tywin thought of her, what Jaime thinks of her, what Tommen thinks of her, what Joffrey thinks of her (and probably a few others). She is a narcissist as I've said repeatedly, and probably also has paranoid personality disorder on top of that, however she is missing some of the key elements of sociopaths. She is incredibly selfish, but she is missing one of the most important aspects of what it means to be a sociopath - Not caring what others think about her. 

Just to make sure I'm not just saying things : Several scenes from the chapter I just read in which Cersei shows signs of caring what others think of her : 

"The words stung. You called me kinder words at Greenstone, the night you planted Joff inside of me, Cersei thought." - She was hurt by Jaime's words and misses when they were closer/more loving. 

"Never speak of it child," smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw." - She has a memory of Tywin smiling at her in a way that he only did for her (which she seems to have liked). 

"At this hour, her son was fast asleep, but Cersei looked in upon him before seeking her own bed." - She checks in on Tommen despite it not gaining her anything. She is just concerned about her son. 

I know all of this is very small, tiny actions of an overall very very selfish person, but I think it shows she does not have antisocial personality disorder (i.e. she isn't a sociopath).