Skahaz mo Kandaq and the Brazen Beasts

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

25 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I also think it could have been him.

Which means that the fact that the Brazen Beasts are in charge of the walls of Meereen when the battle starts is a tad concerning. It might be a weird battle, with the Beasts staging a coup AGAINST Dany and Barristan and controlling Meereen's defenses, just as Tyrion turns the sellswords FOR her, Victarion wins the seas, and Barristan takes control of the siege engines. Complete reversal of battle positions maybe.

An interesting detail I just noticed though is that the Tattered Prince provided BB uniforms and supposed password for Quentyn's attempt to claim a dragon. Where did they get the uniforms? The best bet for how uniforms could be acquired is via murder of BB by Sons of the Harpy. So the Tattered Prince may be allied with the SoH, who obtained the expired password when they murdered the former owners of the uniforms?

oh i think Skahaz is loyal to Dany. He just wanted Hizdahr removed. 

[Hippocras]

29 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

oh i think Skahaz is loyal to Dany. He just wanted Hizdahr removed. 

Definitely possible. I just find it hard to tell with these Meereenese. Ultimately I think he wants to be Top Boy, Dany or no Dany.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

The series has been careful to avoid painting a clan with the same brush.  Like the Bolton has Domeric to carry the family morality.  So it stands to reason that there are among the people of Meereen who would want to emancipate the slaves.  Skahaz could be that good guy.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The series has been careful to avoid painting a clan with the same brush.  Like the Bolton has Domeric to carry the family morality.  So it stands to reason that there are among the people of Meereen who would want to emancipate the slaves.  Skahaz could be that good guy.

Sadly racist/xenophobic stereotypes have effected how GRRM has presented non-white people, but I want to believe that too. I personally think Skahaz is a gray character, ans I’m okay with that. But there are plenty of pro-Dany Meerenese. I noticed in my recent reread that Dany seems to focus on those NOT changing due to her prescence, when actualoy the majority of ex-slaves seem very pro-change. Like some story of one slave selling himself effects Dany greatly. But Missandei is one ex-slave too, right next to her, not wanting to be a slave anymore. Daenerys’s enemies are using the greatest conservative tactic to undermine progressjve change…pointing to individuals happy with the unfair system when in fact, the majority seems to have been very unhappy. 

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Sadly racist/xenophobic stereotypes have effected how GRRM has presented non-white people, but I want to believe that too. I personally think Skahaz is a gray character, ans I’m okay with that. But there are plenty of pro-Dany Meerenese. I noticed in my recent reread that Dany seems to focus on those NOT changing due to her prescence, when actualoy the majority of ex-slaves seem very pro-change. Like some story of one slave selling himself effects Dany greatly. But Missandei is one ex-slave too, right next to her, not wanting to be a slave anymore. Daenerys’s enemies are using the greatest conservative tactic to undermine progressjve change…pointing to individuals happy with the unfair system when in fact, the majority seems to have been very unhappy. 

I don't see it that way regarding the way GRRM has written the series.

I see Dany as a colonizer and conqueror. And even though the simplistic narrative around colonization now in the real world is that everyone involved was an evil imperialist bully, the reality was quite different. Many many people involved thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they were helping, by bringing civilization. Even now, the entire aid industry is flooded with this dynamic. White saviours.

Dany's intentions, for the moment, are good. But she has no understanding at all of the people she is trying to govern. Nor does she even really want to understand them. She just wants them to change. The way GRRM has written Meereen echoes this. We never get a Meereenese POV. We do not know what they are thinking. So we, just like Dany, do not understand them.

I think Skahaz may genuinely want to get rid of slavery. That does not need to mean blind loyalty to Dany and the colonization project. He is also ambitious. Maybe he is Meereen's Kwame Nkrumah, wanting change, but wanting to lead it himself, as a local person who, unlike Dany, actually understands his people.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:46 PM, Hippocras said:

I don't see it that way regarding the way GRRM has written the series.

I see Dany as a colonizer and conqueror. And even though the simplistic narrative around colonization now in the real world is that everyone involved was an evil imperialist bully, the reality was quite different. Many many people involved thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they were helping, by bringing civilization. Even now, the entire aid industry is flooded with this dynamic. White saviours.

Dany's intentions, for the moment, are good. But she has no understanding at all of the people she is trying to govern. Nor does she even really want to understand them. She just wants them to change. The way GRRM has written Meereen echoes this. We never get a Meereenese POV. We do not know what they are thinking. So we, just like Dany, do not understand them.

I think Skahaz may genuinely want to get rid of slavery. That does not need to mean blind loyalty to Dany and the colonization project. He is also ambitious. Maybe he is Meereen's Kwame Nkrumah, wanting change, but wanting to lead it himself, as a local person who, unlike Dany, actually understands his people.

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said here, but I think the lack of a presence of a Meereenese PoV...still lends itself to prejudice/racism within the narrative. 

I go back and forth on whether Daenerys is a white savior narrative or not. On one hand, well, she is white. And she is certainly not from the culture of the people in question. However, on the other hand....Daenerys was actually a slave, something I think a lot of people forget, and she brings up her past of being sold to Khal Drogo...repeatedly whenever the question of slavery comes up. Although the way Khal Drogo-Dany was written is...confusing, it seems that at least part of Dany feels that her relationship with Khal Drogo was wrong (as she didn't have a choice in beginning it). 

However, I agree with everything you said in the paragraph about Dany not trying to understand the Meerenese enough. On one hand, I think trying to change them to ...no longer keep slaves : I agree, sorry, but I agree. I think slavery is just evil, plainly evil. Trying to convince people to not keep slaves anymore, I think is a noble cause. However, in other ways, she could try to understand her people, particularly her freedmen. The freedmen have surprisingly little impact in Dany's councils or in how power is divvied out in her Kingdom. She also seems to make no attempt to know what her freedmen want. Like, I guess Grey Worm (and the Unsullied) and Missandei she listens to, but we don't see a similar effort put forth to understand the mass majority of her freedmen. 

Again, I like Skahaz. I ultimately think he IS loyal to Dany, but I'd said he wants to get rid of Hizdahr and other former elites MORE than he wants to follow Dany. His primary goal was to remove the former ruling class of Meereen, and when Daenerys showed up, it was a way to achieve those goals. That to me doesn't mean he is not loyal to her, just that when she starts working on appeasement with the Green Grace and Hizdahr, it went directly against his goals. Still, I think Skahaz is loyal to Dany. I don't think he will hurt the Freedmen, the Unsullied, or others loyal to Daenerys. However, he is strongly against the leaders of the other great pyramids, so a horrific slaughter of the "hostage" cupbearers and pages is certainly possible (he has been wanting that for awhile). And again, that doesn't mean he is anti-Dany or anti-slavery, just...anti-Meerenese Great Masters. 

One last note - I've said in this forum many times, but I want so much for GRRM to humanize the Dothraki and the Meerenese. I want PoV's from both groups. Make Larraq, the Lash, a PoV. Make Jhogo a PoV. Make Missandei a PoV. I don't care who it is, as long as it adds nuance to the narrative. Heck, with the Wildlings, it didn't even require a Wildling PoV, just having Jon try to understand the Wildlings worked pretty well. Have Ser Barristan Selmy try to understand the Meerenese? Have Dany be more open to understanding the Dothraki? I don't know, there has to be a way to add more nuance to that narrative like GRRM has for the Wildlings.