Alternate world or Earth [Revisited] - Technology in Westeros

[Tyrosh]

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I think being a biologist, I cannot help but dividing this topic into several viewpoints.

Geographically and from a climate standpoint, it's a completely different planet and even a different solar system or unknown galaxy (length of seasons while still being the same class planet as earth, with water, ice, deserts etc).

 

Culturally, it may be an alternate version of earth, a path humanity may have developed into, had there been magic on earth. Well, maybe there has been magic on earth, but personally I have yet to meet a fire breathing dragon. ;)

 

Biologically however, it is not very likely that so many species (humans, dogs, horses, cats, pigeons, boars, lions, rats, quails, barley, pomegranates, apples, onions, wild garlic, etc pp) have developed exactly the same as they have on earth without somehow having derived from earth in the first place.

 

So, here goes my completely unnecessary theory - as I don't think we actually need an explanation to be able to enjoy the story as it is:

The story is based on a time in our far, far, FAR future where humanity has somehow managed to settle on a planet in a different galaxy, but complelety lost their technology and had to start from scratch - probably due to a war, climate change or other phenomenon. Maybe all the wonders of the past Valyrian empire is partly our future technology, like the legend of Atlantis on earth.

 

But please, I'm just throwing this in the air for fun purposes, I don't really believe this is the case and I don't really need any confirmation from GRRM for this silly theory. I just enjoy making up somewhat credible-ish explanations and used to enjoy finding plausible explanations for errors in Star Trek. :D

 

Greetings,

Steph

Yeah, that would be a pretty good back story. I am picturing it as just another planet similar to Earth, inhabited with humans (most plants and animal species are the same or similar, and there is a single moon too LOL). Geography and technology/knowledge are different - good enough.

There are reasons however why I think it's better left unsaid/ambiguous:

- By spelling it out you gain nothing, better let reader unleash his/her own fantasy (or SF construct) and imagination. (Both SF-inclined and fantasy-oriented people can have their own back-story).

- By providing it, ASOIF would officially become SF-Fantasy, and that would endlessly confuse distributors, book stores, marketing and licensing people etc., they like clear-cut labels.

- Even though George's SF novels are as high in quality as ASOIF, he never had much commercial success with them, while ASOIF is a smash-hit, so I guess he doesn't want to jinx himself.

- By leaving it as Fantasy-fantasy you do not have to provide a scientific explanation for every little thing, can be distracting (and conflicting down the road).

 

I love the idea of human-only aliens, who developed different technology, have their own history (which parallels in many ways Earth history) etc. It was not explored in SF all that much, I mean we almost have alien-archetypes in popular fiction:

- Unimaginable monsters (Alien).

- Exact opposite from the above - Utter innocence (IT, Avatar etc.)

- More humanoid aliens (That stereotypical alien with huge head and black eyes, Engineers from Alien/Prometheus etc.)

 

[There was a comic-book fantasy series (by Rosinsky/Van Hamme, the original run) - Thorgal, that executed the idea of human-aliens (and Earth-human visitors, similar to what you described) pretty well. It starts off with viking stories, transitions into Lord of the Ring type fantasy-adventure (with magic toned down to a minimum) and 2 or 3 major arcs are SF-fantasy.]

 

Few interesting things about the technology in ASoIaF:

 

- There is quite spectacular heating system in Winterfell, would love to have something like that. Granted, Romans did build bathrooms atop natural heat sources, but entire Stark's heat-distribution system is well above and beyond. At the present day we are still using external contraptions and radiators (heating embedded in walls would be quite expansive I guess).

 

- Food and gastronomy are not of this Earth LOL.

 

- Realm (as united by Thargerians) is the Roman empire of "Planetos", "dark-age" of course came afterwards on Earth (dark-age in many ways was a result of the fall of mighty Roman empire). It's reminiscent of Harold Foster's wonderful Prince Valiant series, a romanticized version of history, mixed up with English folklore and mythology. Camelot is pretty much a Rome of this alternative history; while banners, armory, clothing and of course tournaments George draws from there (more so than from actual history), and it's good that he does - I love it. It's not a homage (too long for that and embedded everywhere), and it's not a rip-off (story and characters are original), rather the atmosphere and look and feel - he nailed it. It's interesting to have fiction derived from fiction (Prince Valiant) which was in turn derived from fiction (romanticized history and folklore + myhtology), whilst at the same time human characters are sport on - hard ultra-reality.

 

- Solars gained in popularity in late 15th century in northern Europe, while they are widely used in castles all over Westeros.

 

- Fabric and clothing, they are using linen and silk. It was Marko Polo who brought silk to Europe way after middle-ages. Colors too - vivid colors and higher palette would probably shock a commoner from Euro middle ages.

 

- Tecnological progress is way, way slower on Planetos; that may not be by design but gels perfectly nevertheless.

 

There are probably many other examples of different/asynchronous technological development on Planetos, it's just wonderful read altogether, I am only half-way book 1 (1st read).

[SaffronLady]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:24 AM, Tyrosh said:

By providing it, ASOIF would officially become SF-Fantasy, and that would endlessly confuse distributors, book stores, marketing and licensing people etc., they like clear-cut labels.

Maybe they could put ASOIAF in the same shelves where they put the Warhammer 40k novels.

On 9/29/2023 at 3:24 AM, Tyrosh said:

Realm (as united by Thargerians) is the Roman empire of "Planetos"

No not really, the Realm of the Iron Throne is one of the many children of the Valyrian Freehold, which is the Roman Empire of Planetos.

[Tyrosh]

On 10/14/2023 at 3:11 AM, SaffronLady said:

On 9/28/2023 at 9:24 PM, Tyrosh said:

Realm (as united by Thargerians) is the Roman empire of "Planetos"

No not really, the Realm of the Iron Throne is one of the many children of the Valyrian Freehold, which is the Roman Empire of Planetos.

Not really, judging from the 1st book, Valyria is more like ancient Greece or Egypt, or mixture of both, a prototype to Rome/Realm. In it's inception Rome was uniting conquered tribes under it's own realm, obvious parallel with 7 kingdoms. Conqured tribes/kingdoms would be incorporated into a single realm (they would not burn everything to the ground). That, BTW George brought perfectly in early chapters, you have clear sense of kingdoms and the Realm, while you don't necessarily see how it will dissolve and what is about to go down.

One thing I forgot to mention is plants/fruits/vegetables. They indeed appear to be the same as what we have on Earth, and familiar, however that can be easily rationalized or fixed without any editing. Take oak for example - There is oak from the frontier, Japanese oak and of course continental/European oak. Now if you would write a novel that takes place in Edo-period Japan, you wouldn't use term "Japanese oak", primarily because none of the characters knew for any other type, plus Japan as a state did not exist at the time. By the same token, onion in Westeros may have a stronger aroma, while it's somewhat smaller in size, and color is slightly different. It's famous Riverrun onion LOL

Edited October 16, 2023 by Tyrosh

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

Not really, judging from the 1st book, Valyria is more like ancient Greece or Egypt, or mixture of both, a prototype to Rome/Realm.

This line of comparison is really lost on both me and theorists in general.

4 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

In it's inception Rome was uniting conquered tribes under it's own realm, obvious parallel with 7 kingdoms.

7 kingdoms is a very Anglo-Saxon instead of Roman thing.

4 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

That, BTW George brought perfectly in early chapters, you have clear sense of kingdoms and the Realm, while you don't necessarily see how it will dissolve and what is about to go down.

Honestly it's more perfectly clear GRRM was making a fantasy England (the 7 Anglo-Saxon kingdoms form into one realm) than a Rome analogue with the Realm of the Iron Throne. OTOH, the Valyrians have slavery, a huge empire, religious tolerance and elected heads of state. Basically Late Republic to High Empire Romans.

[Tyrosh]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

This line of comparison is really lost on both me and theorists in general.

7 kingdoms is a very Anglo-Saxon instead of Roman thing.

Honestly it's more perfectly clear GRRM was making a fantasy England (the 7 Anglo-Saxon kingdoms form into one realm) than a Rome analogue with the Realm of the Iron Throne. OTOH, the Valyrians have slavery, a huge empire, religious tolerance and elected heads of state. Basically Late Republic to High Empire Romans.

Granted, unification of smaller kingdoms and calling themselves empire was common throughout Europe in middle ages, they all saw themselves (when unified) as new Rome. And in some capacity (be it Roman law, executive branch, conquest or trade) they would succeed, for a short period of time. Keep in mind Roman empire was undisputed ruler of western-world for over 1000 years, much like Westeros, on both accounts. Length in time and size and scope. In addition, Kingslanding is much like the city of Rome, described really well in Catelyn chapter, during her failed stealth mission. Finally you get that unique Roman outlook from Spider and Littlefinger, as if they just jumped out of Gladiator or some other Roman spectacle.

It's interesting you see it more as Wessex/early England, I am not here to tell you there is a "correct" way to interpret fiction. George, much like Robert E. Howard, is mixing up things, using history a lot and drawing from everywhere. One of the reasons why using fantasy is such a good choice (as opposed to historical fiction), it gives him freedom. As for the magic, also like Howard, he is keeping it up to a minimum, so far, but that deserves another thread. Magic is tricky, even for the best of authors.

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

Keep in mind Roman empire was undisputed ruler of western-world for over 1000 years, much like Westeros, on both accounts.

I'm basically "What?" now. And since when did the Targs rule the Essosi Free Cities to be the undisputed ruler of the Planetos western world again?

7 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

they all saw themselves (when unified) as new Rome.

It's really more a German thing. Neither the French, nor the English, nor the Spanish, nor the Polish thought so.

7 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

Length in time and size and scope.

Just because England became the size of South America in the form of Westeros doesn't mean its allusions suddenly become Roman.

7 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

Kingslanding is much like the city of Rome, described really well in Catelyn chapter

I don't see chariot racing fields nor gladiator arenas. A very big city with shitty living conditions could be any medieval city with over 20k pop.

7 hours ago, Tyrosh said:

unique Roman outlook from Spider and Littlefinger

Have you considered the fact both men have Essos ancestry, which ties back to me saying the Valyrian Freehold is clearly the Roman Empire in the world of Ice and Fire?

[Tyrosh]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:28 AM, SaffronLady said:

I'm basically "What?" now. And since when did the Targs rule the Essosi Free Cities to be the undisputed ruler of the Planetos western world again?

It's really more a German thing. Neither the French, nor the English, nor the Spanish, nor the Polish thought so.

You gotta be kidding right? Start with Charlemagne, great King of the Franks, he even used Roman name in the title, as he was crowned the Emperor of the Romans...

That entire archetype, used in fiction, of small European kingdoms (with crowns, princess and princesses, tournaments etc) was rooted in that era.

If you wanna go east, all the way to Russian Cars, the very word - Car is derived from guess what - Caesar.

 

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I don't see chariot racing fields nor gladiator arenas. A very big city with shitty living conditions could be any medieval city with over 20k pop.

Look no further than Redkeep, throne room, solars etc it's all very spacious and Roman-like. Harold Foster used similar scenography for Camelot. Middle age courts were very modest in contrast. That for 2 reasons - Kings of that era were devoted Christians (officially at least), and their treasure was considerably smaller from what Roman senators could afford for palaces, spas etc. You can see Wessex court pretty well reconstructed in The Last Kingdom - It was all very humble, they wisely chose to use their limited coin on weapons, armory and scrolls/books.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Tyrosh said:

You gotta be kidding right? Start with Charlemagne, great King of the Franks, he even used Roman name in the title, as he was crowned the Emperor of the Romans...

If you're gonna repeat Robert Folz instead of actually catching up with current Roman scholarship, we'd just be going around in circles if I respond in kind, so I'll just cut it out and bluntly say not only do I not see how the Targaryen kingdom is more than a "fantasy post-Roman" kingdom, but your words show your own framework of analysis is outdated.

Also, the Frankish kingdoms weren't the English, Spanish nor Polish. It's honestly debatable if they were even French in the High Medieval sense of the term.

1 hour ago, Tyrosh said:

Look no further than Redkeep, throne room, solars etc it's all very spacious and Roman-like.

Spacious yes, Roman-like no.

Too bad Valyria went Pompey. Which shows, again, Valyria was the Roman Empire, and the various civilizations it conquered and enslaved the forerunner civilizations.

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Tyrosh, @SaffronLady, so if the humans are from another planet, does that mean that the Others are aliens? 

[SaffronLady]

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Tyrosh, @SaffronLady, so if the humans are from another planet, does that mean that the Others are aliens? 

I tend not to overthink things like how having two moons must have caused Planetos to have some really crazy tide cycles.

And as another example, how one exploding must have further messed with the planet.

[Jaenara Belarys]

16 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And as another example, how one exploding must have further messed with the planet.

Maybe it was a big generation ship blowing up.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Maybe it was a big generation ship blowing up.

Blood magic being nanobot actions when?

[Jaenara Belarys]

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Blood magic being nanobot actions when?

Yeah, probably, but then we have to figure out why the rituals need fire and blood. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yeah, probably, but then we have to figure out why the rituals need fire and blood. 

I'm not sure GRRM will jinx ASOIAF by making it into a sci-fi ... though that's not stopping me from making my own speculations.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm not sure GRRM will jinx ASOIAF by making it into a sci-fi ... though that's not stopping me from making my own speculations.

Things would be much better if the Masters of Meereen enjoyed podracing instead of gladiatorial combat.

[Jaenara Belarys]

29 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Things would be much better if the Masters of Meereen enjoyed podracing instead of gladiatorial combat.

Imagine how interesting it would be if Planetos humans were spreading out into the solar system and colonizing the next solar system over (with a habitable planet) with Albucierre warp drives and antimatter ships capable of 1 g acceleration. 

Think Braavos, Myr, Lorath, Pentos and a few others were colonizing and terraforming Planetos's Venus equivalent, Volantis is colonizing and terraforming the Mars equivalent, the slaver states have managed to invent the warp drive and begin colonization of the other habitable planet in the other solar system. 

Though it would make sense for the Braavosi or Myrish to invent it, I just bounced it to the Ghiscari because it would be interesting to see the dynamics of a colonial slave state in interstellar space. In space, where every kilogram counts, it would probably be seen as a mark of status to own an entire household of slave servants. 

I must sound like I'm nuts. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jaenara Belarys