Lineages of Lys

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Speaking of unlikely situations, a princess of a royal house still in power, becoming not only a courtesan, but also one who produced bastards ... even if Aemon was probably dead, given these bastards could come to present their claim in 101 AC they should be born in Baelon's Handship. Baelon "I smacked Balerion and rides Vhagar" Targaryen is surprisingly lenient towards the random folks who dared impregnate his sister out of wedlock.

The whole thing is confusing honestly. Baelon became Hand in 92 so probably a few of Saera's bastards had already been born by then while Ryam Redwyne was Hand. It could be though that Saera moved to Volantis around the time Baelon became Hand, so maybe he was more vigorous about defending family honour than his predecessor was, and that precipitated her move. Hard to say. All we know is that she had been in Volantis for a few years before 99, which I guessed meant around 96 but could be as early as 93.

We also don't really know how long she was whoring in a pillow house in Lys. At least 6 months, but that might have been the extent of it. It is entirely possible that she became a concubine after a brief pillow house stint, and that would make the status of her bastards somewhat different. Bastards still, but possibly ones with many social connections and advantages. We also know Alysanne was looking out for her, so maybe some arrangements were made via Alysanne to give her a better status and life in Lys while being ignored by Jaehaerys.

[SaffronLady]

9 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The whole thing is confusing honestly. Baelon became Hand in 92 so probably a few of Saera's bastards had already been born by then while Ryam Redwyne was Hand. It could be though that Saera moved to Volantis around the time Baelon became Hand, so maybe he was more vigorous about defending family honour than his predecessor was, and that precipitated her move. Hard to say. All we know is that she had been in Volantis for a few years before 99, which I guessed meant around 96 but could be as early as 93.

We also don't really know how long she was whoring in a pillow house in Lys. At least 6 months, but that might have been the extent of it. It is entirely possible that she became a concubine after a brief pillow house stint, and that would make the status of her bastards somewhat different. Bastards still, but possibly ones with many social connections and advantages. We also know Alysanne was looking out for her, so maybe some arrangements were made via Alysanne to give her a better status and life in Lys while being ignored by Jaehaerys.

If Saera did end up in the life of a concubine, especially as one in Volantis, I'm surprised Jaehaerys took no action to seal off all of her possible descendants from the Iron Throne. Isn't Volantis home to some of the oldest lineages of Valyria? Not all of the Old Blood qualify, of course, but some of them might think they could claim the Iron Throne through a dragonblood concubine and having a higher status (or having connexions to more powerful dragonlords) than the Targaryens back in the Valyrian era. The Targs intermarried with the Velaryons, maybe the some of the Old Blood intermarried with the Belaerys family.

[Hippocras]

25 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

If Saera did end up in the life of a concubine, especially as one in Volantis, I'm surprised Jaehaerys took no action to seal off all of her possible descendants from the Iron Throne. Isn't Volantis home to some of the oldest lineages of Valyria? Not all of the Old Blood qualify, of course, but some of them might think they could claim the Iron Throne through a dragonblood concubine and having a higher status (or having connexions to more powerful dragonlords) than the Targaryens back in the Valyrian era. The Targs intermarried with the Velaryons, maybe the some of the Old Blood intermarried with the Belaerys family.

I don't think Jaehaerys really saw her as a danger honestly. Just a hurtful embarrassment. Westeros would not accept being ruled by someone of such scandalous descent, and Jaehaerys had so many heirs initially that he would not have considered himself vulnerable. It is really only in hindsight that we can see his heirs dying one after the other necessitating the great council.

Maybe it would have been more dangerous if the Free Cities ever stopped fighting each other, but they never really did. The Triarchy was the most serious attempt and that was only three of the Free cities.

[Hippocras]

Coming back to this topic for a few reason.

The first is that I don't usually believe in coincidences when it comes to GRRM's names for things and people. It came up in another thread that "Rogar" is really entirely too similar to "Rogare".

This obseration brings entirely new lines of though to how House Rogare fits into the general scheme of things in the early history of Targaryens in Westeros, long before Larra married Viserys.

[Hippocras]

Want to link this thread with some of my other ones discussion Lys associated families.

Sam Tarly's network included the Rogare family from the moment she began the bank of Oldtown. However the Rogar/Rogare observation does make me reconsider to what extend the Rogare family had older ties, and to which families.

 

[Loose Bolt]

On 5/30/2024 at 1:56 PM, Hippocras said:

Coming back to this topic for a few reason.

The first is that I don't usually believe in coincidences when it comes to GRRM's names for things and people. It came up in another thread that "Rogar" is really entirely too similar to "Rogare".

This obseration brings entirely new lines of though to how House Rogare fits into the general scheme of things in the early history of Targaryens in Westeros, long before Larra married Viserys.

Rogar Bolton was last Red King. So at least some First Men used that name thousands of years ago. 

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Rogar Bolton was last Red King. So at least some First Men used that name thousands of years ago. 

Yes. But this does not mean it is a coincidence. Rather, we should maybe consider that House Rogare might have quite ancient connections to Westeros that we never considered because we were distracted by their more recent "Valyrian" looks. It would not be the only pre-conquest connection to Lys. Meanwhile we find the name Lysara in House Karstark not long after its appearance in House Rogare. It would therefore not be the only hint of mysterious connections between the North and House Rogare.

Another detail that is probably relevant has to do with the bones of Lysaro - specifically mentioned as having been interred in the Rogare family crypts in Lys. As far as I know this is much more Westerosi as a way of dealing with the dead than what most Valyrians practiced.