Faith of the Seven political activity facts and theories thread (drafts dump; new p1 tbd)

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

The standard measured against was Shipbreaker Bay.

For all we know, even Shipbreaker Bay is or was relatively safe compared to attempts to cross open ocean.  And if you try to reach the Vale without crossing open ocean, you have to pass through Shipbreaker Bay. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

For all we know, even Shipbreaker Bay is or was relatively safe compared to attempts to cross open ocean.  And if you try to reach the Vale without crossing open ocean, you have to pass through Shipbreaker Bay. 

Quote

They invited Andals to cross the narrow sea to aid them against their rivals, so the Fingers were where Andals first arrived when they invaded Westeros.

For all we know, Shipbreaker Bay was not relatively safe compared to crossing the Narrow Sea directly from Andalos to the Vale.

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

For all we know, Shipbreaker Bay was not relatively safe compared to crossing the Narrow Sea directly from Andalos to the Vale.

If your argument is based on "for all we know", then you can have no objection to Oldtown as a religious center for The Faith of the Seven.   Meanwhile, "for all we know" works fine with me because I am merely defending the plausibility of the text.

The Andals came to the Fingers because invited, and no doubt for other reasons relevant to military adventurers, not because it was the easiest, safest, trade route to the largest cultural center.   

Religious centers have no particular historical tendency to be established at the sites of invasion.  Rome did not become the Christian center of Europe due to invasion.  Nor did Canterbury become the Christian center of England due to invasion.

Spread of the Faith and spread of the Andals are no doubt associated.  But they are unlikely to be identical.  The Andals are an ethnicity, and the Faith is a religion.  And a wandering prosletyzing septon, who need not even be an Andal as far as I know, can slip through where an army is stopped.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[SaffronLady]

54 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

If your argument is based on "for all we know", then you can have no objection to Oldtown as a religious center for The Faith of the Seven. 

I fail to see how the dots connect.

Another obvious problem with your statement being my bone to pick with Oldtown is it has, as far as we know, been the center of the Faith. A link is missing here between Andalos and the Reach. Only Lannisport could be worse.

57 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Andals came to the Fingers because invited, and no doubt for other reasons relevant to military adventurers

Yes, which includes this path does not kill them. Perhaps not a solid proof the children, the women and the elderly could move easily, but this path could reasonably be expected not to kill them.

58 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Religious centers have no particular historical tendency to be established at the sites of invasion.

Yes. But when peoples of a certain faith move en masse into a certain region of a different faith, it creates the tendency to establish a religious center there, like Texans and Texas. The Reach is too far away to overrule the Vale as a natural migration destination. And the other name of the Andal invasion is, of course, the Coming of the Andals.

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I fail to see how the dots connect.

We don't need to know.  2000, 4000, and 6000 years is a long time.  We are necessarily going to be missing dots.  We can either accept that, or force GRRM to spend the next century writing a fake ecclesiastical history.

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Another obvious problem with your statement being my bone to pick with Oldtown is it has, as far as we know, been the center of the Faith. A link is missing here between Andalos and the Reach. Only Lannisport could be worse.

There is nothing wrong with the Faith having its center in Oldtown, whether that happened 500 years ago, or 1000 years ago or 5000 years ago.  It does not need to be close to Andalos, because there is nothing for them in Andalos.

It has access by sea to the Arbor, Dorne, and both coasts of Westeros.  It has (via the Citadel) access by raven to most inland locations.

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Yes, which includes this path does not kill them. Perhaps not a solid proof the children, the women and the elderly could move easily, but this path could reasonably be expected not to kill them

If ships never passed through Shipbreaker bay, it would never break any ships.  In ancient times, ships tended to sail close to land.  GRRM knows this and references this.  Euron is the exception, not the rule, when he sails away from land.  And even the Ironborn who follow him are not entirely used to the practice.

I make no commitment as to the route taken by the Andals to the Fingers.  All I am saying is that they weren't following the easiest trade route to the largest cosmopolis.  Which is where major religious centers tend to develop.

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Yes. But when peoples of a certain faith move en masse into a certain region of a different faith, it creates the tendency to establish a religious center there, like Texans and Texas.of the Andals.

When did I take the position that the Andals built no churches or monasteries in the Vale?  I'm sure they did.  There might even have been a few septs or brotherhoods already there.  When the Norse pagans settled iceland, they found a bunch of Christian monks already there.

The line in the World Book refers to a military invasion. 

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

The Reach is too far away to overrule the Vale as a natural migration destination.

No it is not.  That is silly.  A major cosmopolis is exactly the place where a minority religious community OR a minority ethnic community can establish itself.

And since we are talking about 1000s of years, I need take no position on whether this happened before or after the Andals established themselves in the Vale and began conquering it.

6 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And the other name of the Andal invasion is, of course, the Coming of the Andals.

Did you notice it is not called "The Coming of the Faith of the Seven"?

The Andals are an ethnic group.  The Faith of the Seven is a religion.  Associated?  Yes.  Identical?  No.

You can't just go by geography.  Christianity may have broadly succeeded in Ireland before it broadly succeeded in the British Isles.  Thus, in the 7th Century, we see Ireland sending over people to establish missionary communities in West Scotland and Northwest England.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[SaffronLady]

28 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

We don't need to know.  2000, 4000, and 6000 years is a long time. 

I mean I fail to see how "for all we know" implies anything in the context of your last post.

28 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

There is nothing wrong with the Faith having its center in Oldtown, whether that happened 500 years ago, or 1000 years ago or 5000 years ago.

Great, now if GRRM could actually put that in the books, even as an allegory like him explaining how Azor Ahai was not the good guy and savior by letting "Azor Ahai" Stannis kill his brother with magic, it would be perfect.

30 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

If ships never passed through Shipbreaker bay, it would never break any ships.  In ancient times, ships tended to sail close to land.  GRRM knows this and references this.

Yes. Ships in medieval times tended to sail close to land, and GRRM references this. He also makes exceptions in the case of the Summer Islanders, who literally have to go anywhere beyond their home islands by sailing beyond the coast.

32 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

All I am saying is that they weren't following the easiest trade route to the largest cosmopolis.

Well on that we could agree. Sailing high seas into unknown territory sounds like a terrible military plan.

33 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

When did I take the position that the Andals built no churches or monasteries in the Vale?

No. What we have been consistently disagreeing about is the Andals should have had their new religious center (well center among other regional centers) closer to home - an opinion you oppose and I support. Speaking of which:

34 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

It does not need to be close to Andalos, because there is nothing for them in Andalos.

Memories. They remember Andalos. And real life proved that was enough cause for military action.

36 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

No it is not.  That is silly.  A major cosmopolis is exactly the place where a minority religious community OR a minority ethnic community can establish itself.

And where exactly is it implied the migrating Andals were a minority? Even if they were, they can't have been a minority by a significant margain - such as the Jewish or Gypsie model you are implying here. We have, fortunately, an object of comparison - the Rhoynar. And all that was left of the old Rhoynar were orphans on the Greenblood three generations in. The Nymeros Martell don't even speak Nymeria's tongue by then.

I do believe the Church of Starry Wisdom spread according to the model implied by your comment. Fot7 and the Andals, no.

41 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Did you notice it is not called "The Coming of the Faith of the Seven"?

Right... 

Like, this one is just arguing for the sake of sparring. They were the first ethnos in the Fot7, the Fot7 was the Andali cultus.

42 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Andals are an ethnic group.  The Faith of the Seven is a religion.  Associated?  Yes.  Identical?  No.

Before the Coming, Identical? Yes.

43 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

You can't just go by geography.

I'm not nitpicking at the spread of the Fot7 on Tarth and Greenstone and Driftmark, I'm talking about a continent-scale dissonance here. If GRRM want to play worldbuilding, then an unexplained hole the size of the whole damn Vale is fair game for analysis.

[Gilbert Green]

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I mean I fail to see how "for all we know" implies anything in the context of your last post.

All I am saying is that we don't need to create contradictions by assuming things not in evidence.  The text says that Oldtown is,  within recent memory and for the past 1000 years or so, the center of the Faith.  You have presented no good reason for questioning that.

Was not Oldtown the official seat of the Faith for only 1000 years?  And was not the Andal invasion 2000 or 4000 or 6000 years ago?  Why is there any compelling need to reconcile developments that are at least 1000 years apart?

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Great, now if GRRM could actually put that in the books, even as an allegory like him explaining how Azor Ahai was not the good guy and savior by letting "Azor Ahai" Stannis kill his brother with magic, it would be perfect.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Yes. Ships in medieval times tended to sail close to land, and GRRM references this. He also makes exceptions in the case of the Summer Islanders, who literally have to go anywhere beyond their home islands by sailing beyond the coast.

If your point is that we have no actual knowledge of how the Andals reached the Fingers, or by what route, then I agree.  It's all guesswork.    And I don't see how any of this guesswork can prove that a major center of the Faith, 2000 years later, or even during the same millenium as the invasion, could not also be in Oldtown.

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Well on that we could agree. Sailing high seas into unknown territory sounds like a terrible military plan.

I would find it more plausible if they already had an island base.  Like Tarth or wherever.  My guess is that the Fingers are merely the first landing on Westeros proper.

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Memories. They remember Andalos. And real life proved that was enough cause for military action.

Some maesters think it was actually Valyrian pressure that drove them West.  But never mind that.  You are in effect arguing that the Christians should not have converted Ireland before they converted Scotland and Northumbria, because Scotland and Northumbria are closer to Jerusalem.  Real history does not work that way.

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And where exactly is it implied the migrating Andals were a minority?

I was talking primarily about the Fot7.  But you keep switching to the Andals, and leaving out the Fot7.

How is it implied?  Because Oldtown is currently the center of the Faith.  And they were never actually conquered by the Andals.  They just made marriage deals with them, and no Hightower even converted a generations or so later.  It is plausible, that the Fot7 gained a foothold there, and gradually grew in influence over the centuries, just as the Christians did in Rome.  And it is likely, with the passage of centuries that with time the Fot7 in Oldtown ceased to be predominantly Andal, just as the Christians in Rome quickly-if-not-immediately ceased to be predominantly Jewish.

And I would guess Oldtowners are predominatly of First Men heritage even to this day.  Even if their religion is predominatly Fot7.

It is implied because the Fot7 is loosely based on the Medieval Roman Church.  And, by analogy, its center of Faith would be either in Rome or (by more local analogy) in Canterbury.  And neither of those religious centers were established by Conquest.   Therefore, it is at least a plausible possibility that the Faith started as a minority in many locations.  Only the most genocidal of invasions will instantly replace local populations.  Usually, a new faith begins as a minority.

GRRM intends the coming of the Andals to be something closely analogous to the Saxon invasions displacing the Celts.  But when the Saxons invaded, it is unclear how Christian they were, and there were at least some Christians already present.  Probably GRRM intends the Andals to be more closely tied to the Fot7 than the Saxons were to Christianity.  But even so, I doubt he intends a simple dischotomy where we automatically assume all First Men are tree worshippers and all Andals are Fot7.

Or maybe he was thinking of the Christian Danes displacing the Saxons in Canterbury.  But when the Danes arrived in Canterbury, they found a 400+ year old monastery already present.

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Before the Coming, Identical? Yes.

Why would I assume that?  If GRRM is making rough analogies to English/British history, then I would guess probably not.  I think the WOIAF text you quote refers to the first mainland military invasion.  I don't think it necessarily excludes earlier establishment of island bases.  Nor do I think it rules out pre-invasion missionary infiltration, or pre-invasion trade contacts, or pre-invasion religious conclaves in major cities 1000 miles distant.

Nobody knows the minor details anyway, because, as in real Dark Ages history, the mists of time have largely swallowed up the past, and it is clear the maesters and the septons are guessing in the basis of limited evidence.

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm not nitpicking at the spread of the Fot7 on Tarth and Greenstone and Driftmark, I'm talking about a continent-scale dissonance here. If GRRM want to play worldbuilding, then an unexplained hole the size of the whole damn Vale is fair game for analysis.

I guess we just have different analyses.  I see no dissonance.  And I expect "holes", because I don't reasonably expect GRRM to write a realistic 7-volume ecclesiastical history of Westeros.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

The idea that wars or hostilities, between nations, such as the wars and tensions between Dorne and the Iron Throne, would necessarily lead to religious "schism", does not seem justified by anything in English history or European history, at least not at any point prior to the Protestant Reformation.

I've never heard for instance, that the wars between Wales (mirror-reversed Dorne) and England, ever resulted in schism.  But perhaps someone knows more about it than I do.

As late as the 15th Century, when France was at war with England, both warring nations belonged to the same religion.  So you had the English burning Joan of Arc as a witch, while the French revered her as a saint and martyr.   The papacy eventually took the French position by canonizing her in the 19th century IIRC, but he sure took his time about it.

[SaffronLady]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Why is there any compelling need to reconcile developments that are at least 1000 years apart?

Because we have no evidence of other Westerosi centers of Faith "closer to home" having ever existed. If the Andal invasion started as it went down in the history books, this should have happened.

Of course, there are other adventurous theories positing the Andals did not invade Westeros from the eastern seaboard, but I won't comment on those.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

GRRM reworked an in-world myth into a plot point, demostrating the dissonance between myth and the truth behind said myth. Back on the topic at hand, I mean there should have been a trail the Faith left in the process of its HQ migrating, either in legend or architecture.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

And I don't see how any of this guesswork can prove that a major center of the Faith, 2000 years later, or even during the same millenium as the invasion, could not also be in Oldtown.

It should have moved on from somewhere else on Westeros to Oldtown is what I'm trying to say. On the eastern seaboard or somewhere slightly inland from the east coast of Westeros, say Duskendale.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

I would find it more plausible if they already had an island base.  Like Tarth or wherever.  My guess is that the Fingers are merely the first landing on Westeros proper.

Perhaps. House Tarth having Lucifer references makes it likely it was also associated with "the bloodstone event". If Tarth was the first Andal settlement on Westeros, maybe the magic attracted them.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

You are in effect arguing that the Christians should not have converted Ireland before they converted Scotland and Northumbria, because Scotland and Northumbria are closer to Jerusalem.  Real history does not work that way.

No. I am arguing Christians should not have converted Ireland before they converted Italy and France, and that sailing from Jerusalem through the Med around Spain to convert Ireland first is very strange, not to mention making Dublinn the seat of the heirs of St. Peter.

It is interesting what you are doing here though, taking the question of scale out of the picture. I get it, I sometimes do this too. I am more often forced to drag this back on this forum though. So much for having you as a discussion partner.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Some maesters think it was actually Valyrian pressure that drove them West.

Perhaps, perhaps not. If that was the case they should have had a more urgent need of a provisional center of faith.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

I was talking primarily about the Fot7.  But you keep switching to the Andals, and leaving out the Fot7.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Why would I assume that? 

Because my theory is about the two being one and the same thing at the beginning. Well, I am leaving the possibility of integrating the "Andal split" theory open, but I haven't an answer yet. 

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

But even so, I doubt he intends a simple dischotomy where we automatically assume all First Men are tree worshippers and all Andals are Fot7.

I cannot form a theory by imposing my ideas whenever a doubtable space opens in the author's words. Unless the bat-ax worshipping faction of the Andals gets more obvious as a constant force, then it is automatically assumed the reasonable majority of Andals are Fot7.

The last time the bat faction was obvious was during the Lady Lothston event, if you don't know what I'm talking about. If you insist on making a distinction between the Andals and the Fot7, then you could call the Fot7-worshipping Andals the "stars faction". 

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

How is it implied?  Because Oldtown is currently the center of the Faith.

This is just a circular argument that ignores the Andal Conquest of the Vale and the riverlands.

The issue at my hand is why Oldtown, and your answer is because Oldtown. I find that insufficient. You do not think Oldtown is an issue. On this point, we are going nowhere.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

And neither of those religious centers were established by Conquest.

The Andals are not Hellenized Jews forced out of Palestine by the Zealots (Jewish faction). And whether following Germanic paganism or Christianity, the Anglo-Saxon conquerors were driving druidism and Roman cults out of their zones of control, opening the way for Cantebury to be a Christian center. Analogy wildly off the mark.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Nor do I think it rules out pre-invasion missionary infiltration, or pre-invasion trade contacts, or pre-invasion religious conclaves in major cities 1000 miles distant.

If GRRM could bother to write about the base of the Hightower being fused stone (which is the base (hah!) of all Hightower connections to the first dragonlords theories), ruined small earlier septs in Oldtown could also be on the list. Failing that, the working theory is these contacts don't exist, and Andals spread mainly by land, east-to-west.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:07 AM, Gilbert Green said:

I don't reasonably expect GRRM to write a realistic 7-volume ecclesiastical history of Westeros.

Neither do I.

On 12/11/2023 at 8:24 AM, Gilbert Green said:

The idea that wars or hostilities, between nations, such as the wars and tensions between Dorne and the Iron Throne, would necessarily lead to religious "schism", does not seem justified by anything in English history or European history, at least not at any point prior to the Protestant Reformation.

Not only could schisms start because of wars, polities could make use of it, build up on it, make temporary schisms permanent, and close those schisms when the temporal situation changed. You are obfuscating the point by saying "necessarily". Yes of course if doesn't start "necessarily", the point was it could.

And something like the Iron Throne-Dorne "long war" over a hundred years certainly makes a schism more likely than a quick conflict. Still, not "necessarily". Also, since you mentioned it:

On 12/11/2023 at 8:24 AM, Gilbert Green said:

As late as the 15th Century, when France was at war with England, both warring nations belonged to the same religion.

The same religion is not the same church. For instance, the French king does not need to be crowned by the bishop of Cantebury, nor the English by Reims, and neither by the bishop of Rome, who crowns mainly the Roman cosplayer extraordinaire - the Emperor of the Germans, also known as the Holy Roman Emperor.

My point on Dorne is more about this aspect of world-building, but I haven't got to it yet.

[Gilbert Green]

On 12/9/2023 at 3:57 AM, SaffronLady said:

IIRC many religions practice a division of inner circles and outer circles, so that provides a way for the core tenets to survive.

Most religions have a hierarchical structure, to be sure, which they use to promote what they regard as core tenets.  But I know of nothing historical that is analogous to what you are hypothesizing is occurring here:  where a religion preserves for centuries and even millennia a set of inner beliefs that are completely at odds with the beliefs and tenets that they publicly promote.

The only thing I can think of that is even remotely analogous is certain kinds of vast anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.  But I don't regard such theories as having historical basis.  The only tiny glimmer of truth that such theories possess is that power has an unfortunate tendency to corrupt, and so corruption, and in some cases even occult diabolism or devil-worship, will often be found, in all ages and in all religions, at or near the top of most-if-not-all organizations.  Or, as some might put it, the Devil is the Prince of This World, and so worldly people are sometimes secret diabolists, in some way or another.

How do secret texts get preserved for 8000 years?  By magic, I guess.  We know from comparison with the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Book of Isaiah was preserved, more-or-less faithfully, for about 2000 years.  But the Book of Isaiah has always been a public document, constantly being copied and compared by countless people before the old texts crumbled.   How would this work with a secret text?  It wouldn't.  Not without Magic.   The secret text would inevitably get lost or destroyed with the passage of time, and the secret would be lost.

But okay.  Maybe the Great Other is giving direct orders to the Inner Circle of the Faith.  And he does not need secret texts because he knows his own mind.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Most religions have a hierarchical structure, to be sure, which they use to promote what they regard as core tenets.  But I know of nothing historical that is analogous to what you are hypothesizing is occurring here:  where a religion preserves for centuries and even millennia a set of inner beliefs that are completely at odds with the beliefs and tenets that they publicly promote.

The only thing I can think of that is even remotely analogous is certain kinds of vast anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.  But I don't regard such theories as having historical basis.  The only tiny glimmer of truth that such theories possess is that power has an unfortunate tendency to corrupt, and so corruption, and in some cases even occult diabolism or devil-worship, will often be found, in all ages and in all religions, at or near the top of most-if-not-all organizations.  Or, as some might put it, the Devil is the Prince of This World, and so worldly people are sometimes secret diabolists, in some way or another.

I guess there are some cults that operate on a not wholly dissimilar basis, where as you progress through various stages of initiation you are introduced to "higher mysteries" or whatever which are not disclosed to the laity or those of lesser status. And perhaps some of these mysteries might seem at odds with what the laity believe, in the way that say a large part of the science you're taught at under-16 level is strictly speaking not actually accurate, but is an approximation to make it easier to swallow for people who don't yet have the specialist knowledge needed to understand it fully.

But these cults have for the most part been around for decades, not millennia, and, as you say, keeping things that secret for that long is highly improbable: either the knowledge will get out, or it'll be lost. The only comparable organisation IRL with any serious longevity I can really think of is the Freemasons. There may have been some mystery cults in antiquity that ran on this basis for a while, but the mystery cults we know of are long extinct.

But even in these cases, there is a big difference between selling the laity a simplified version of "the truth" for practical reasons (this is essentially the way that most religions operate, because the deeper theological questions are hard for the laity to grasp, hence the priestly class who can study and answer those questions), or having a secondary agenda that is undisclosed to the laity but essentially compatible with their beliefs and activities (this being the way a lot of cults operate), and having an ulterior motive that is actively contradictory to the ostensible message of the church, which as you say isn't something I've ever heard of.

Apart from anything else, even if it could be done - which like you I am sceptical of over the time periods we're talking about (I'm personally in the "short count" camp, believing the Andals have only been present in Westeros around 2,000 years at most, but that's still way too long) - it wouldn't actually work. The Fot7 draws its power from its vast following among the people of Westeros, who believe that at least six of the gods are benevolent, and the seventh is feared rather than followed. If the Others invade and the High Septon goes "right, time to join up with this army of ice demons and wights, guys, because that's been our plan all along", the majority of the Faith's followers (and indeed, clergy) are likely to go "hang on a hot minute, what the hell?" and the Faith's ability to actually carry out its plan would be fatally compromised.

So even if there is a secret council of the Faith somehow devoted to the cause of the Others, based in Oldtown, its influence will be limited to passing on information to other parties who can make a more meaningful impact.

 

[SaffronLady]

Fot7 Interim Era theories: Starry, starry sept, paint your palette blue and red

There are theories that speak of the First Men building with stone, and the Andals with wood. While I do not have a stance on this theory, it could conveniently be used to explain why, for all intents and purposes, the only known center of the Faith of the Seven sits deep within First Men zone of control - Oldtown, and no previous centers are preserved (because the wooden structures fell into disuse and rotted away without maintenance).

Nevertheless, Oldtown itself is a most interesting city, to say the least. It is long established that Arbor Gold is a visual cue for lies and deceit - a "honey wine" for a "honeyed lie", if you will. And on the mouth of the Honeywine Oldtown sits, along with its maesters, who claim to know when the seasons change, and the Faith. Oldtown is literally "the mouth that spews lies". It is probably believable the city is the second-most populous on Westeros, though.

I think @John Doe has a point when he tries to connect Hugor and Azor Ahai. He hasn't gone the full mile and like me, subscribed to LML's theory that Azor Ahai is the Bloodstone Emperor, but I would have to mention this theory because I need to explain the transmission of mythemes.

As we could see when comparing the story of 13th LCNW and Hugor of the Hill, the mythemes shared between the 2 are not an exact match. The missing one is so important, it almost confirms something else entered the story, something so powerful and insidious it asserted itself into the origin myth of the Faith. For all the talk of Andals and First Men becoming unable to tell each other apart over the millennia, we see nothing of the sort involving First Men origin. Unless you want to argue the Smith is exactly that, but I don't have any quotes on hand to support or refute you...

Back to the missing mytheme, which is of course:

Quote

He was supposedly crowned by the Father himself, who pulled down seven stars to make his crown.

While seven stars may be a sanitization or just a later adaptation, the concept of associating stars pulled down with kings is one we see neither in the legend of the 13th LCNW, nor First Men legends in general. So, to sum up:

1. We see an obvious intrusion of other legends when comparing the myth of the 13th LCNW - also referred to as Night's King - and the origin myth of the Fot7;
2. We could see this intrusion is not from their First Men ambience, nor rooted in a mutation of the original myth (we don't know if the Night's King even had a crown);

Then where could have the intruding mytheme come from? Whether we suppose the existence of an inner circle sorts of order dedicated to maintaining the truth behind the origin myth or not, surely the leadership of the Faith would have blocked any editing of the public version of their origin myth?

Unless the Faith itself was compromised by another faith. Oldtown is a port city - and as a port city, it is open to influence by another faith, one who not only has a great fondness of stars, but if the legends speak true, also has a founder whose reign was defined (among other things) worship of a fallen star.

The Church of Starry Wisdom and its legendary first High Priest, the Bloodstone Emperor. AKA Azor Ahai. By the CSW and BSE, GRRM has tied the Fot7 back into the overarching Ice and Fire conflict of the series.

As I have previously stated when explaining what I mean by the use of "Interim Era", we have next to no exact dates within this era, but through comparative mythology we could see the Fot7's origin myth became its final version some time after their first contact with the CSW. I'm not really sure assuming this happened back in Andalos would be better because Pentos' early history is a blur, so I am placing the final edit in a later time frame, when the Fot7 was settling into their new HQ at Oldtown.

Through this contact-exchange-infiltration, the CSW has at least managed a significant presence within the Faith to counter its roots of Ice, giving it leaves of blood and fire. Yes, I am comparing the Faith to a weirwood tree.

[SaffronLady]

A little wrap-up post before I start a p2 for this topic, because comparative mythology and comparative history are very different things, and trying to discuss all that in the same thread is messy.

The credit for starting the "myth side" of this thread goes to Fun Guy from Yuggoth, more specifically this post, but see also his other posts in the same thread.

Following up, my primary ideas for the Fot7 pre-Conquest are:

1. The Faith started out as surviving followers of the Night's King integrating their beliefs into original Andal ideas, and there may existed an inner circle of ice magic mages behind the public death cult;
2. Fot7 Andals started out as generally hostile towards the First Men, and this was why their first contacts with Westeros were mostly war, all across the eastern seaboard from the North to Dorne;
3. However their religious hierarchy operated, them moving base to Oldtown marked a drastic - though unknown if it is sudden or gradual - change from their original ways, and a visible intrusion by the Church of Starry Wisdom to its top and deepest levels;
4. What we now know of the Faith is either a bothersome caricature, or its abnormal unity and peace-making function actually means something in the 'Great War of Life and Long Night';
5. Due to their connexions with Night's King, the Fot7's move to Oldtown marked a similar function to the Starks - they were their respective factions' outposts on enemy territory, but the Fot7's position was comprimised by CSW entry (this may not be something as gentle as 'infiltration', for all we know it could be the church equivalent of a hostile takeover)

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

1. What we now know of the Faith is either a bothersome caricature, or its abnormal unity and peace-making function actually means something in the 'Great War of Life and Long Night';

If you want to speculate, that is fine.  But we don't "know" either of these things.  The first is merely your personal reaction, which I for one do not share.  And the second is speculation.

Septon Utt and Septon Meribald are not part of any abnormally unified monolithic entity.  They are two different people.

Yes, Jaime seems to find Lancel and Bonifer bothersome and annoying.  You clearly share his opinion.  But does GRRM agree?  There seems little indication that he does.  Jaime is an unrepentant villain, who pushes little boys out of windows.  He does not, necessarily, represent the views of the author.  He might.  Who know?  But not necessarily.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

abnormally unified monolithic entity

I understand you don't think a church that doesn't have schisms is abnormal, we've gone over this already.

But it runs against everything I know about religion in general, so I consider it abnormal.

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I understand you don't think a church that doesn't have schisms is abnormal, we've gone over this already.

You misrepresent my position

My position is that we don't know enough about the Faith to say it has had no schisms.  You are making a fallacious argument from silence.

The little we know about the Faith is a reasonable match with the Pre-Reformation Catholic Church.   And it is now having its own Reformation.  GRRM has directly compared the Sparrows to the Reformation.  Which started as a protest before it became a schism.

[SaffronLady]

13 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

My position is that we don't know enough about the Faith to say it has had no schisms.  You are making a fallacious argument from silence.

... So you would prefer making a fallacious argument ex nihilo, and assume a schism does exist where none is mentioned? The closest thing we had to a mention of a schism as of now were the rival High Septons during Maegor's reign that only have the support of their own soldiers, and even they did not schism off, aiming for Oldtown instead.

[Gilbert Green]

17 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

... So you would prefer making a fallacious argument ex nihilo, and assume a schism does exist where none is mentioned?

The Faith of the Seven is based on the pre-Reformation Catholic Church.  That is not "ex-nihilo".  GRRM has said so directly.

To the (very limited) extent that the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in Europe had schisms, it is reasonable to assume that the Faith of the Seven also had schisms. 

If GRRM did not have time to mention them, it merely means GRRM did not have time to mention them.  We can accept the rough comparison without any need for GRRM to write a multi-volume history of the Faith.

Meribald and Utt are simply very different people.  There is no monolith.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[SaffronLady]

28 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Faith of the Seven is based on the pre-Reformation Catholic Church.  That is not "ex-nihilo".  GRRM has said so directly.

I don't follow the "fill in the narrative blanks with sources of inspiration" line. Either GRRM puts it in F&B2, or TWOW, or something else. Just because he uses something as inspiration does not mean things follow one to one between the source and the content he creates. Or perhaps William the Bastard really rides a dragon.

According to the info we have in the books, assuming a schism exists or existed is doing it ex nihilo.

32 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

If GRRM did not have time to mention them, it merely means GRRM did not have time to mention them.  We can accept the rough comparison without any need for GRRM to write a multi-volume history of the Faith.

He does not even name-drop. "In this year, over issue x, septons (names optional) broke off from the Fot7 proper." You don't need a multi-volume history of the Faith for that, just a line quite literally anywhere to show yes, nameless schisms once happened.

34 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Meribald and Utt are simply very different people.  There is no monolith.

Neither accuse each other of being schismatics.

Actually, beyond F&B, which I don't have access, the word "schism" appears only twice across all ASOIAF literature - both in the World Book, and only once in a religious context:

Quote

Qohor and Norvos were founded following religious schisms. Others, such as Old Volantis and Lys, were trading colonies first and foremost, founded by wealthy merchants and nobles who purchased the right to rule themselves as clients of the Freehold rather than subjects. These cities chose their own leaders rather than receiving archons dispatched from Valyria (often on dragonback) to oversee them.

Quote

In return for the last few Stars and Swords putting down their weapons, and for agreeing to accept outside justice, the High Septon received King Jaehaerys's sworn oath that the Iron Throne would always protect and defend the Faith. In this way, the great schism between crown and Faith was forever healed.

 

[Kasamira]

Quite enjoying your write up on the Faith! I haven’t seen enough discussion of them, I’ve never thought about the maid’s blue eyes before and how it might relate to the 13th LC 

The story of the Night’s King has always reminded me a bit of David and Bathsheba and i think that might also fit with your view of the Night’s Queen in the Faith of the Seven as well!

On 11/22/2023 at 12:25 AM, SaffronLady said:

The Fot7 is organized to a ridiculous degree - it has no schisms, no heresies, nothing. I have my theory on why is that

I couldn’t really see where you explained that unless you’re using “organized” and “stable” (below)

On 11/22/2023 at 12:25 AM, SaffronLady said:

Anyone with a basic understanding of religious history's first question about the Faith should be "why is it so stable?"

The lack of schism or codified doctrinal differences may point to intense organization. However based on the Faith’s startling lack of institutional power (or any institutions at all) it seems to indicate something much more decentralized 

If the Faith were highly organized and had cemented itself in westerosi psyche over thousands of years—you would surely expect them to have long established centers of learning, for the tenets of doctrine to be enshrined quite clearly, and for there to be a visible struggle between monarchy and the High Septon.
 

Except, the only knowledge we have of septa/septon training comes from a semi canonical source that’s pretty lackluster 

Quote

(April 2000) How are the would-be septas and septons of the Faith trained for their calling? Is there some academy/religious center they can go to (perhaps the Great Sept in KL), or are they trained by local septas and septons?

Both, I imagine. Some local septons are not very well educated (like priestsin medieval Europe), but there are great centers of religious training, and the Great Sept of Baelor would certainly be preeminent among them.

So where? This quote is years prior to Feast too, which does the most to expand the Faith however we don’t see any bastions of training at Oldtown. None of our noble POVs seem interested in currying the favor of the Faith either (not becoming patrons to to monasteries/abbeys, not sponsoring artists, etc…) but the general attitude by Tyrion as Hand is… well, dismissive to say the least 

Doctrinally we see uncertainty in text over whether the Faith is even monotheistic. But not portrayed in a way to demonstrate faith-based differences but more that smallfolk don’t know/are unaware of the Faith’s teachings on this foundational issue. 
 

As for a struggle between monarchy vs papacy (high septon-ry lol), there are a few historic instances. We get Aegon’s Charlemagne crowning parallel with the HS. But if the HS denouncing Aenys for marrying Rhaena and Aegon is meant to be his Pope Innocent III moment it falls far short of the mark and lacks any lasting weight— there is no excommunication in asoiaf, no papal Bull, no way to deny the gods time of grace. The high septon claims spiritual power over the laity but lacks any authority to revoke it. His temporal power is nowhere to be seen. 
 

The Faith seems a to be a religion that relies on vagaries. But that makes Martin’s attempts to backfill in Feast and in F&B, all the more apparent.