What If: Rhaella and Aery's line

[Hippocras]

8 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

It would suggest the 'return of magic' started first in the subtle areas, like bloodline detection and of course, outright prophesy. Then Dany hatching dragons opened the way for/marks the full blossoming of magic across all fields.

Because ... it would be kinda impossible and meaningless to baby swap if you know neither who their parents and ancestors are, nor who they will grow up to become, right? Babies being babies, more mundane methods may not suffice.

I think magic has been creeping back since around then, but I don't see that as relevant. The baby swaps would have happened for political reasons and because of risks to babies lives.

1  There was a war. Aerys held Elia and her children hostage to secure Dorne's and Lewyn Martell's active allegiance. The first baby swap option that has been proposed is that Aegon was swapped for another baby and is therefore now alive. That option is actually written in the books. However, Yoing Griff might not really be Aegon. Which means we need to find out eventually who he actually is.

2. Dany's mother died during her birth and so was not around to question which baby was raised as Danaerys, while Viserys was too young and preoccupied to notice either. As long as the baby looked like a Targaryen (and was of course, by a different route) then those serving on Dragonstone at the time had full flexibility to, if in their interests, take in another baby and pretend she was Rhaella's. As for why, well, because Rhaella's child died, and another arrived on Dragonstone (or in Braavos a bit later) who also fit the woods witch Prince that was Promised prophesy, and because they believed Viserys needed a close relative as bride. However they could not set her up as Viserys's bride under her true identity because she was a bastard.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Hippocras

[KingAerys_II]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The theory that successive incest creates somehow 'worse' or 'lesser' Targaryens than some cousin or outside marriage is ludicrous.

First, those people practiced sibling incest as the ideal (and other close kin marriage if that was not possible) for centuries and millennia. They are all inbred, as are the descendants of Targaryen bastards or descendants of people who married into other families (Velaryons, Baratheons, etc.) The only difference there is that some branches of the family don't marry back into the main line and thus don't got more inbred. But adding the 1,234th sibling incest union since the founding of Valyria doesn't make the children of such union worse than the ones who only happen to have 1,233 incestuous ancestors.

Second, we see that the likes of Aegon the Unworthy, Daeron the Drunk, Aerion Brightflame, Aerys I, Rhaegel, Vaella the Simple, etc. suffer from issues that we would expect more inbred Targaryens to suffer from if the author wanted to send the message that sibling incest union among you most recent ancestors somehow ruins you. 

Vice versa, there are rather cool Targaryen children from incestuous unions like Jaehaerys I's elder sons, Aegon III and Viserys II, and both Daeron the Good and Daemon Blackfyre.

Another interesting take is that Olenna Tyrell even point blank says that the Baratheons suck because of their Targaryen blood. That blood is rather diluted, as it is in the Valyrian beauty Daenaera Velaryon. The point of the story clearly is that looks and degree of inbreeding aren't that a relevant factor for inheriting Targaryen traits - but simply the fact that you are a descendant from the dragon family tree.

Inbreeding is useful to keep the dragon blood, that's what dragonlords did to keep their power ,I don't think Daenerys hatched eggs because she is Azor Ahai, Jon Snow is the prince, Daenerys has the magic to hatch dragon eggs , because Jaehaerys married Shaena and Aerys married Rhaella, the tradition of inbreeding gave her the power , it's something dragonlords used to do in the Freehold

[Hippocras]

28 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

I don't think Daenerys hatched eggs because she is Azor Ahai, Jon Snow is the prince,

I have strong doubts. As I said, I do not think that AA is the Hero in this story. He is, in the myth, someone who practiced human sacrifice to create a magical sword. That is it, that is all. We actually know nothing about AA beyond that.

Several characters mix up AA and the Prince that was Promised, but I believe these might be two different people with different roles. If they are different, then I think Jon could be TPtwP, but I definitely do not believe he is AA. If they are the same, however, then I do not think it is Jon at all.

That Jon is a prince I do not question. That he will do some heroic things I also do not really question. But I don't think he will be performing a human sacrifice to create a magical sword. So we need candidates for AA who might.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Hippocras

[KingAerys_II]

Daenerys is the only woman who is the result of two consecutive incest since Rhaenyra .

Now there is the theory that female dragonlords are able to hatch dragon eggs:

Rhaenys:Quicksilver

Rhaena:Dreamfyre,Silverwing,Vermithor

Rhaenyra:Arrax,Vermax,Stormcloud

Then Daenerys 

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Daenerys is the only woman who is the result of two consecutive incest since Rhaenyra .

Danaerys is a more-ambiguous example than Rhaegar.  Is she, or is she not, the Mad King's Daughter, in spirit as well as in fact?  The answer could be "yes", especially if the books go in the same direction of the show.    But there could also be twists, involving theories that some people hate.  Her dragon-bond may explain her remarkable vitality, which cannot otherwise be shown to be more remarkable than that of her brother Viserys.  And the fulfilment of prophesy is all a matter of fate anyway.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:48 PM, Gilbert Green said:

Danaerys is a more-ambiguous example than Rhaegar.  Is she, or is she not, the Mad King's Daughter, in spirit as well as in fact?  The answer could be "yes", especially if the books go in the same direction of the show.    But there could also be twists, involving theories that some people hate.  Her dragon-bond may explain her remarkable vitality, which cannot otherwise be shown to be more remarkable than that of her brother Viserys.  And the fulfilment of prophesy is all a matter of fate anyway.

Are one of those theories by any chance linked to the idea that Dany is actually "the Brightflame" and descends from Aerion Brightflame and Daenora's son Maegor, as well as Serra Blackfyre? That theory would make her pretty "inbred" as well as giving her some powers based around blood magic due to whatever Maelys the Monstrous may have been involved in. The idea that fate gave Dany such powers, who is possibly descended from these rogue Targaryens gives the whole story a dramatic twist, a dark twist at that. And if she ends up killing Aegon, who may actually be Rhaegar's son, or even a twin of hers. That of course would still be kinslaying...but when has that ever stopped a "mad" Targaryen leader before???

Edited December 26, 2023 by KingMaekarWasHere

[Gilbert Green]

9 minutes ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Are one of those theories by any chance linked to the idea that Dany is actually "the Brightflame" and descends from Aerion Brightflame and Daenora's son Maegor, as well as Serra Blackfyre?

That's a theory, but is too niche a theory to garner much hate.  The hated theory is that she is Rhaegar's daughter, and therefore one of the three children ("child of three") who is one of the three heads of the dragon.  Dunno why people hate that theory.  But they do.

 

 

[KingAerys_II]

Aegon is a Blackfyre, the fact that Illyrio and Varys are helping him is clearly suspicious, then he has the Golden Company, the Company enemy was house Targaryen, they mocked Viserys when he tried to hire them , so Daenerys is Targaryen , same Rhaegar, who was born at Summerhall after the tragic event, his birth is related to magic , to the prophecy .The one who could not be Aerys son is actually Viseeys, he is miserable compared to his siblings

[Gilbert Green]

23 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon is a Blackfyre, the fact that Illyrio and Varys are helping him is clearly suspicious, then he has the Golden Company, the Company enemy was house Targaryen, they mocked Viserys when he tried to hire them , so Daenerys is Targaryen , same Rhaegar, who was born at Summerhall after the tragic event, his birth is related to magic , to the prophecy .The one who could not be Aerys son is actually Viserys, he is miserable compared to his siblings

Young Griff is a Blackfyre.  Which means he is not Aegon.  But we know from HOTU that Aegon is TPTWP.  But yes, whoever that is, it is not Young Griff. 

Viserys is a near clone of his father Aerys.  Which is what you would expect, assuming such a specimen were viable.

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon is a Blackfyre, the fact that Illyrio and Varys are helping him is clearly suspicious, then he has the Golden Company, the Company enemy was house Targaryen, they mocked Viserys when he tried to hire them , so Daenerys is Targaryen , same Rhaegar, who was born at Summerhall after the tragic event, his birth is related to magic , to the prophecy .The one who could not be Aerys son is actually Viseeys, he is miserable compared to his siblings

Aegon is probably a Blackfyre, sure. Other possibilities can not be ruled out yet though, including the possibility that he is actually Rhaegar and Elia’s son. And if he is a Blackfyre, then by what route? We don’t have a family tree, and so we don’t know which Westerosi families continue to have associations with the Blackfyre line.

Also, noone here really disputes that Daenerys is a Targaryen. She just might be one by a different route than we, and she, currently believes. If her grandmother was Rhaella and her grandfather was Aerys, and her other parents/grandparents actually helped strengthen the dragon connection by tying in lost bloodlines such as Rhaena and Baela’s, Elaena, Daena and Rhaena’s, even Maegor’s, then it actually provides a BETTER explanation for her dragon bond than being the direct descendent of the VERY diluted royal line would.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Hippocras

[KingAerys_II]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Aegon is probably a Blackfyre, sure. Other possibilities can not be ruled out yet though, including the possibility that he is actually Rhaegar and Elia’s son. And if he is a Blackfyre, then by what route? We don’t have a family tree, and so we don’t know which Westerosi families continue to have associations with the Blackfyre line.

Also, noone here really disputes that Daenerys is a Targaryen. She just might be one by a different route than we, and she, currently believes. If her grandmother was Rhaella and her grandfather was Aerys, and her other parents/grandparents actually helped strengthen the dragon connection by tying in lost bloodlines such as Rhaena and Baela’s, Elaena, Daena and Rhaena’s, even Maegor’s, then it actually provides a BETTER explanation for her dragon bond than being the direct descendent of the VERY diluted royal line would.

Serra is probably  Daemon daughter or sister, Daemon killed by Maelys. 

Some believe Varys is Serra brother, I don't know, but he is a Blackfyre

[Gilbert Green]

13 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Some believe Varys is Serra brother, I don't know, but he is a Blackfyre

Varys, of the soft white hands, IS Serra. 

After Serra's daughter Mellario grew up and got married, Serra needed another purpose in life.  So she moved to KL and became Varys, the master of whisperers.  The eunuch who likes to tell a story about why, unlike most "eunuchs", he needs to take a piss sitting down.

Illyrio covered her tracks by saying she had died.  A story which, naturally, no-one wants to investigate, since it involves a contagious plague.

Now Doran and Mellario are plotting to put their Blackfyre son; and Varys and Illyro are plotting to put their Blackfyre grandson, on the Iron Throne.  They swapped out the real Aegon, and sent him to be fostered with the Yronwoods, as Frog Martell.  He is the frog who will become an enchanted Prince (That Was Promised) as per the HOTU prophesies.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

44 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Varys, of the soft white hands, IS Serra. 

After Serra's daughter Mellario grew up and got married, Serra needed another purpose in life.  So she moved to KL and became Varys, the master of whisperers.  The eunuch who likes to tell a story about why, unlike most "eunuchs", he needs to take a piss sitting down.

Illyrio covered her tracks by saying she had died.  A story which, naturally, no-one wants to investigate, since it involves a contagious plague.

Now Doran and Mellario are plotting to put their Blackfyre son; and Varys and Illyro are plotting to put their Blackfyre grandson, on the Iron Throne.  They swapped out the real Aegon, and sent him to be fostered with the Yronwoods, as Frog Martell.  He is the frog who will become an enchanted Prince (That Was Promised) as per the HOTU prophesies.

So...are you saying that the Martells interbred with Blackfyres??? Doesn't that renege on their professed loyalty to the House of the Dragon aka the Targaryens? I mean Baelor and Maekar were half-Martell. So the Targs have more Martell blood than any Blackfyre. 

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

So...are you saying that the Martells interbred with Blackfyres???

I am saying Doran married the daughter of the last Blackfyre.  I have no idea why you are calling that inbreeding.  But yes, Doran and the Blackfyres both have a certain amount of Targ heritage, though not enough to justify that word IMHO.

4 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Doesn't that renege on their professed loyalty to the House of the Dragon aka the Targaryens?

Are you asking me if Frog Martell, the real Aegon, might have a literal grievance against Doran, for plotting to deprive him of his birthright?  I guess he does.  But he does not know, and Doran does not want him to know.

Doran has swapped his nephew with his son and is plotting to put his son on the Iron Throne.  He has many motives, including a desire to placate a wife who did not want to be separated from her son.  Including a desire to placate Lord Yronwood.  Including the fact that most parents have a greater loyalty to sons than they do for nephews.   Including the fact that his natural allies Varys (Serra) and Illyro share this loyalty for their own descendants.  Including the fact that Young Griff is a more-convenient "Aegon" because he better looks the part.

Doran probably did originally plan to support his nephew's birthright.  But then Aegon grew to resemble a Martell and stopped "looking the part".   And then the Red Viper murdered Lord Yronwood, and Doran had to placate the new Lord Yronwood.  And then his wife threw a tantrum when he wanted to separate her from her son.  And surely it must have occurred to him how nice it would be to have the support of the Golden Company.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Farstrider]

I can see why Aerys would reject Rhaegar.  A Married Rhaegar beds a young girl.  You say okay.  But his wife is from an important family ally who holds onto a grudge like a dog to a bone.  A man who would rule the kingdom ought to know better.  Aerys knew his first son can't rule. 

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

So...are you saying that the Martells interbred with Blackfyres??? Doesn't that renege on their professed loyalty to the House of the Dragon aka the Targaryens? I mean Baelor and Maekar were half-Martell. So the Targs have more Martell blood than any Blackfyre. 

I think several marriage alliances happened across lines to try to contain and/or prevent the Blackfyre rebellions actually.

I think that both Rohanne and Kiera of Tyrosh were daughters (or maybe grandaughter in the case of Kiera) of Daena, who was of course Daemon Blackfyre's mother though she did not raise him herself. I think that Daena probably had several children of her second marriage, and all of them would have been highly desirable as marriage matches to both loyalist families and Blackfyre families.

  

21 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Serra is probably  Daemon daughter or sister, Daemon killed by Maelys. 

Some believe Varys is Serra brother, I don't know, but he is a Blackfyre

Yes, this part is almost cannon. But it is always amazing how quickly people forget about the need for mothers for offspring to exist, and how easily identities are hidden by the fact that women do not pass on the names of their birth family. The Blackfyre line is not only those who carry the Blackfyre name. And those who carry the Blackfyre name also carry other lines of descent.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Hippocras

[KingMaekarWasHere]

13 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I am saying Doran married the daughter of the last Blackfyre.  I have no idea why you are calling that inbreeding.  But yes, Doran and the Blackfyres both have a certain amount of Targ heritage, though not enough to justify that word IMHO.

 

Interbred is not the same as "inbreeding." Interbred to my best knowledge means for two different lines to mix and create a new line (genetically of course). For example, the Baratheons "interbred" with the Florents when Stannis conceived his daughter with his wife. Or when Robert created/conceived Edric Storm with the Florent sister whose name I forget. 

[Gilbert Green]

31 minutes ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Interbred is not the same as "inbreeding." Interbred to my best knowledge means for two different lines to mix and create a new line (genetically of course). For example, the Baratheons "interbred" with the Florents when Stannis conceived his daughter with his wife. Or when Robert created/conceived Edric Storm with the Florent sister whose name I forget. 

I just misread the word.  Mea culpa.

Interbred is not really part of my vocabulary.  It is what most people do, when they are not inbreeding, and perhaps even when they are inbreeding.   It takes two to tango, as the saying goes.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gilbert Green