Pod and Egg

[Castellan]

Pimples and styes: I wasn't commenting on any similarity to Edric just pointing out that Pod is unprepossessing and easily dismissed by other characters in the books but has the makings of a fighter. He has a pimple when seen through Sansa'a eyes, I forget when the stye comes in, maybe when Brienne meets him.

Yes it might make sense for Jaime and Brienne to go somewhere else rather than into the hands of Lady S. But I think Brienne will want to save Pod, she couldn't stand to see him hang - that was how she rationalised her decision to choose 'sword'.

Edited February 9 by Castellan

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, Castellan said:

Pimples and styes: I wasn't commenting on any similarity to Edric just pointing out that Pod is unprepossessing and easily dismissed by other characters in the books but has the makings of a fighter. He has a pimple when seen through Sansa'a eyes, I forget when the stye comes in, maybe when Brienne meets him.

Yes it might make sense for Jaime and Brienne to go somewhere else rather than into the hands of Lady S. But I think Brienne will want to save Pod, she couldn't stand to see him hang - that was how she rationalised her decision to choose 'sword'.

Yes the sty was when Brienne meets him.

Pod's hanging was long ago already.  Either Pod is dead by now, or he was cut down alive and has already escaped from Stoneheart.  Because Mother Merciless has no mercy.

There was never any hostage situation.  Stoneheart sought to bind Brienne by an oath, and not by any hostages.  Hostages would be entirely contrary to Stoneheart's thinking.  As far as she is concerned, Pod is an enemy soldier, and had she given any thought at all to his relationship with Brienne, she might have asked Brienne to prove her loyalty by killing Pod herself.  Instead, she demands that Brienne prove her loyalty by slaying Jaime.

Stoneheart was not even present when Brienne screamed sword.  You have to fill in alot of blanks, and in a manner inconsistent with Stoneheart's logic and character, to imagine a hostage arrangement involving Pod between Brienne and Stoneheart.

Edited February 9 by Gilbert Green

[TheLastWolf]

Judge Holden and The Kid if they were good

[Castellan]

9 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Yes the sty was when Brienne meets him.

Pod's hanging was long ago already.  Either Pod is dead by now, or he was cut down alive and has already escaped from Stoneheart.  Because Mother Merciless has no mercy.

There was never any hostage situation.  Stoneheart sought to bind Brienne by an oath, and not by any hostages.  Hostages would be entirely contrary to Stoneheart's thinking.  As far as she is concerned, Pod is an enemy soldier, and had she given any thought at all to his relationship with Brienne, she might have asked Brienne to prove her loyalty by killing Pod herself.  Instead, she demands that Brienne prove her loyalty by slaying Jaime.

Stoneheart was not even present when Brienne screamed sword.  You have to fill in alot of blanks, and in a manner inconsistent with Stoneheart's logic and character, to imagine a hostage arrangement involving Pod between Brienne and Stoneheart.

Hmm

I reread and agree that Lady S seems most likely to have stayed in the cave while the men took the three out to be hanged. I personally don't think her presence is necessary for Brienne to have been cut down. But they would certainly have dragged Brienne back to Lady S rather than just say 'OK you said Sword, you can go' so Brienne and Lady S have certainly have had some more conversation.

I think its reasonable to hope they cut the others down too although that depends on those soldiers seeing them as a package which they didn't when convicting them. Brienne would certainly have screamed 'Pod too' once she was cut down but that may have been too late.

Its quite possible Lady S would see the additional value of at least Pod as a hostage against Brienne's return, as Brienne has pleaded for him in particular. Lady S may have sought Brienne's vow to get Jaime but surely additional incentives are welcome. Its odd that she has become a different creature, yet would still rely at all on Brienne's vow. I suppose its a chance, at least, to get Jaime, which is a greater obsession than killing Brienne.

So, given the issue of Lady S not being present and Brienne screaming sword with what appears to be her absolute last breath, do you think she's undead? raised by Beric at Lady S's instrutction? And what do you think she and jaime are up to? I presume its all been argued somewhere, so you can just point me to that if you like

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Castellan said:

Brienne would certainly have screamed 'Pod too' once she was cut down but that may have been too late.

GRRM may hold us in suspense for awhile before revealing whether Pod survived or what condition he is in. 

I think there is a pattern of "the boy who lived." We see it in Ser Dontos (spared at the request of Ser Barristan after the Defiance of Duskendale), The Last Lord Tarbek, who may have drowned or might have survived after the Rains of Castamere, Bran (and Rickon) after the tarring of the miller's boys, possibly Patchface, some historical Targs, maybe Aegon / Young Griff and/or Jon Snow. 

I think Pod may be one of these survivors already: he was spared after the ham theft in Tywin's wagon train. 

[Castellan]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Pod may be one of these survivors already: he was spared after the ham theft in Tywin's wagon train. 

I think so too but I was a bit alarmed by the logistic details @Gilbert Green pointed out.

[Gilbert Green]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

GRRM may hold us in suspense for awhile before revealing whether Pod survived or what condition he is in.

That much is for sure.  What is it already?  Eighteen years?

15 hours ago, Seams said:

I think there is a pattern of "the boy who lived." 

Even in the Potterverse, boys don't necessarily live merely because they are boys.  Cedric Diggory died just to prove how evil Voldemort was; to show that his murderous acts can affect people we know and like.

Cat is gone.  UnCat is not Cat.  It is an undead monster, making use of a few aspects of Cat's mind and memories.  Some fans don't accept this.  They think that if someone gives this Demon-Haunted Corpse  a nice talk, this Demon-Haunted Corpse will somehow rediscover its lost humanity.  So they think that, when UnCat ordered hanged an innocent 12-year old boy that we know and like, she did not really mean it, deep down in her heart of hearts. 

My guess is, they are wrong.  Cat would not approve of UnCat's actions, to be sure.  But Cat, wherever her spirit dwells, is not in charge of this demon corpse.

16 hours ago, Seams said:

We see it in Ser Dontos (spared at the request of Ser Barristan after the Defiance of Duskendale), ...

Ser Dontos is dead.  He did not exactly die of old age either.  Ser Barristan's mercy shows that Ser Barristan is merciful.  It does not tell us anything about Dontos; nor about Littlefinger.

16 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Pod may be one of these survivors already: he was spared after the ham theft in Tywin's wagon train. 

So basically, even the murderous Lord Tywin has more mercy in his heart than Mother Merciless.  That's the message I'm getting from this parallel.

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

My guess is, they are wrong.  Cat would not approve of UnCat's actions, to be sure.  But Cat, wherever her spirit dwells, is not in charge of this demon corpse.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

On the topic of un-Cat ... GRRM has said that Lady Stoneheart's story is not done by a long shot (I think a comment on her absence from the show). Bearing that in mind, will we ever get a POV from whatever spirit resides in her? 

One reason I ask is because I think thus far GRRM has used the POV formula in very straightforward ways. But with wights, resurrections, skin-changing etc. possibly moving to the forefront in the next books, will he start to experiment with the structure, to show us some real horror?

[Gilbert Green]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

Hmm

I reread and agree that Lady S seems most likely to have stayed in the cave while the men took the three out to be hanged. I personally don't think her presence is necessary for Brienne to have been cut down. But they would certainly have dragged Brienne back to Lady S rather than just say 'OK you said Sword, you can go' so Brienne and Lady S have certainly have had some more conversation.

I'm not ruing anything out.  But when your sentence has been passed and you are already facing the hangman, the hangman will not typically cut you down no matter what you shout.  It is not a good time to change your mind about the plea bargain you rejected.  UnCat's orders to the hangman were not conditional, as far as I can see.  Seems to me that Brienne's best hope is for the rope to break, and/or for the proverbial "cavalry" to arrive.  Maybe Edric and a couple of buddies will rush out swinging swords at the last minute.

But, if she won't be cut down by her captors, what is the significance of the word she screamed?  I have ideas about that, but you are probably not going to like them.

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

I think its reasonable to hope they cut the others down too although that depends on those soldiers seeing them as a package which they didn't when convicting them. Brienne would certainly have screamed 'Pod too' once she was cut down but that may have been too late.

  Where there is life, there is hope, they say.  Yes, it is reasonable to hope, no matter how dire their situation, if only because of there is a certain story logic to dire cliffhangers. 

In this case, I think GRRM (the evil bastard) is counting on us to hope for their survival, so that he can then play with our  expectations, when a mystery knight and his mystery squire appear at the Vale Tourney in Sansa's POV.  But that's only my guess.

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

Its odd that she has become a different creature, yet would still rely at all on Brienne's vow.

GRRM has said in an interview that this kind of wight (the UnBeric kind) is driven by its oaths.  So oaths are the one thing that you would expect it to understand.

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

So, given the issue of Lady S not being present and Brienne screaming sword with what appears to be her absolute last breath, do you think she's undead? raised by Beric at Lady S's instrutction? And what do you think she and jaime are up to? I presume its all been argued somewhere, so you can just point me to that if you like

Beric is gone.  She would be either raised by Thoros, maybe at LS's instruction, or raised by Stoneheart herself.

Ah, people will get mad at me.  And it's only my guess, after all.

Yes, I think Brienne is undead.  A fire wight pursuing a monstrous and twisted version of her dying oath and other prior oaths.

Brienne made an oath to take [Renly's] sword and kill Renly's slayer with it.   When she entered Catelyn's service, Catelyn swore to her that she would not keep her from fulfilling that oath.

As she dies, Brienne screams a word that signifies an oath to "take the sword and kill the kingslayer".  This curiously echos her prior oath regarding Renly.  Except it has now been extended to a different Kingslayer, and perhaps, in her damaged zombie mind, to all kingslayers, including Gregor Clegane (reputed slayer of Aegon) and Sansa Stark (reputed slayer of Joffrey).  And of course she will pursue Stannis as well.  In the fever dreams that precede her handing, Jaime and Renly already seem to be becoming confused.

Brienne and Sandor have many curious parallels.  I think both will become their opposites, messing with the readers expectations.  Brienne will take up the Hound helm and fight Gregor, and hunt Sansa to avenge Joffrey (as Sansa half expects Sandor to do).  Sandor will become a True Knight, and become a knight errant embodying the best ideals of knighthood.  And he will be accompanied, I guess, by a shy 12-year old squire.  And he will carry a large sword, which he will refuse to draw against lesser adversaries.  And readers will say, "that's obviously Brienne, accompanied by Pod, refusing to draw Oathkeeper -- remember her story about honor and the Just Maid".  But it will actually be Sandor, accompanied by Edric, Lord of Starfall, and refusing to draw Dawn. And, as ironically foreshadowed by his terror of fire, he will slay a dragon (Can a man be brave when he is afraid?  That is the only time a man can be brave!).  He will draw Dawn for that adversary, at least..  Etc. etc. 

My guess is, that all the curious parallels between Brienne and Sandor, and between Podrick and Edric, are part of this curious plot to mislead Sansa and the reader.

But some of the parallels between Dunk and Egg, on the one hand, and Sandor and Edric on the other, will be thematic.

Edited February 11 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

On the topic of un-Cat ... GRRM has said that Lady Stoneheart's story is not done by a long shot (I think a comment on her absence from the show). Bearing that in mind, will we ever get a POV from whatever spirit resides in her?

My guess would be no.  But we already have indirect testimony from UnBeric, who asks if he was born on the battlefield, and if Thoros is his mother.  UnBeric, at least, does not think he is Beric.

I can also see the dead appearing in dreams and visions to POV characters, in a way that might provide clues that they are separate beings from whatever evil spirit inhabits their corpse.

Jaime had a vision of he and Brienne being trapped in the Underworld together.  And Brienne was beautiful there.

Brienne had a vision of following a man she loved through a forest.  She calls to him, and he turns.  Then a shadow, seeming to strike from her direction, kills him, much to her horror.  I think this foreshadows the death of Jaime; and gives a clue as to what the perspective might be of a human spirit trapped in a zombie corpse.  Able to observe, perhaps, but not really in control.

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

One reason I ask is because I think thus far GRRM has used the POV formula in very straightforward ways. But with wights, resurrections, skin-changing etc. possibly moving to the forefront in the next books, will he start to experiment with the structure, to show us some real horror?

I absolutely think GRRM is going to use the fantasy elements of the story in tricksy ways, including but not limited to tricky use of POVs:

-- FACELESS MEN:  Very tricksy characters, who can appear in the shape of a dead person, convincing characters and readers that such person is still alive.  They can even have POV chapters; since the tradition of naming chapters after the role being played (Alayne, Mercy, The Merchant's Man, etc. etc.),  has already firmly established by GRRM.

- GLAMORS:  self evident.

- WARGING:  Human's can be warged.  And a character can "die in his own POV" while warging another human.  All GRRM has to do to trick us is to conceal this information.  In fact, I have an idea that this may have already happened, and Bowon Marsh and Friends assassinated a warged, glamored Cregan Karstark; only to have the real Jon Snow return to his body hiding in the ice cells.

- ZOMBIES:  I don't think they will get POVs but they can walk and talk; and convince certain POV characters that they are alive for a while.

-- SECOND LIFE:  A person's POV can continue after his body has died. We already saw this with Varamyr.  And what will that second life be?  Another human?  A dragon?