The Best Thing Jaime Could Do

[Annelise]

Jaime chose to kill Aerys when the Red Keep was under assault and he was expected to fullfill the ultimate duty of a kingsguard, dying before harm comes to the king.

True, but Aerys hadn't ordered him to stay and shield him; he sent Jaime elsewhere to prove his loyalty. Death or dishonor were not foregone conclusions for him, IMO. Selmy survived Rhaegar's death with his honor intact, afterall.

In short, I don't think Jaime did it to save his skin; that's just too cowardly for a character who's never shied away from death in battle. I think it was for the reasons previously stated and additionally, that he didn't think Aerys worth his vows, his own life, or his father's. He's regretted Alia and the children, that he felt he failed in his duty there, but as he said to Brienne, I've never seen any indication that he regrets Aerys. Seems pretty clear that Jaime loathed the man and thought him an unworthy King to serve. To me, that he acted on impulse, fueled by that pent up lack of respect and loathing is most consistent with the character.

[Annelise]

If Aerys is killed or captured it will reflect upon Jaime if he is alive. His disgrace would be of epic proportions.

Sorry, my hubby interrupted me before.. in the above case, how does killing Aerys help his cause then? How would it save Jaime's skin or his honor? I'm asking as that was your take, yes? That he sold out his boss when everything was lost to save himself?

[Enguerrand]

True, but Aerys hadn't ordered him to stay and shield him; he sent Jaime elsewhere to prove his loyalty. Death or dishonor were not foregone conclusions for him, IMO. Selmy survived Rhaegar's death with his honor intact, afterall.

Fair point about Selmy. I don’t recall was he assigned to Rhaegar personal protection? Or was he leading troops in battle? He couldn’t have done both.

Anyway I think the stigma hefting to Jaime would have been greater being assigned to the king and all. He was ordered to bring back his father head, and he didn’t. For all we know he was expected to rally to the king when the defences broke down. His situation was also worse since if he wasn’t killed, his lack of commitment would be attributed to his divided loyalties. He would always be known as the kingsguard that failed the king if he survived, whether he mutilated himself or not.

in the above case, how does killing Aerys help his cause then? How would it save Jaime's skin or his honor? I'm asking as that was your take, yes?

Aerys would have been the first to denounce him as traitor if they both survived. This is the real reason Jaime killed him as far as I been able to determine.(except for petulance, since killing him didn't stop the wild-fire ignition) With Aerys death and his father’s backing they could have concocted a story on of Jaime was valiantly overmanned holding the south gate or something. Still without a very obvious wound this story would have been ridiculed. But it would have spared Jaime the worst disgrace and no one would have cared to challenge Tywin over it. Unfortunately for Jaime he was caught in the act.

In short, I don't think Jaime did it to save his skin; that's just too cowardly for a character who's never shied away from death in battle.

No I don’t think so either but that is how it would perceived by many people that haven’t the benefit of Jaime’s POV. And Jaime is all about glory, he wants to be seen as Lancelot , not Judas.

[Annelise]

Fair point about Selmy. I don’t recall was he assigned to Rhaegar personal protection? Or was he leading troops in battle? He couldn’t have done both.

I'm not sure which it was, I just saw in the Concordance that Jon Darry and Selmy were sent toward Stoney Sept to muster troops, but that Jon was the second KG to die on the Trident, so evidently they were present for the battle. Be nice if someone with stronger ASOIAF trivia knowledge jumped in about now..

Aerys would have been the first to denounce him as traitor if they both survived. This is the real reason Jaime killed him as far as I been able to determine.

Aerys was so well known for being a paranoid, vindictive loon though, who would have cared? (Unless it was to their own end to take that line). Aerys is certainly not what I'd consider credible based on what I've read.

Secondly, Aerys was a goner. Jaime knew it.. as you mentioned, his train of thought covers killing him then letting someone else take the credit.

Between the two, it's hard to see possibly being briefly denounced by the deposed mad King as any serious concern or motivation for him to personally kill Aerys. IMO.

I recall Jaime's thoughts about it should be harder to kill a King. That read like a final verdict of contempt, to me. A "when dying is all that remains, it matters" sort of thing, but Aerys was a gross disappointment in that, too (according to Jaime's standards). Reminds me of when Jaime first realized Aerys never wanted him for himself, but as fuck you to Tywin.. I don't think his vanity ever forgave that. More fuel for that final moment, if you will.

I think Aerys helped turn Jaime in exactly what he feared, personally, always felt that made for some nice irony.

No I don’t think so either but that is how it would perceived by many people that haven’t the benefit of Jaime’s POV. And Jaime is all about glory, he wants to be seen as Lancelot , not Judas.

It's an interesting point, I don't recall much about how many people think why he did it, only that he broke his sacred vows when he did. From what I do recall, my impression is that most folk thought he pissed on his KG vows to serve his House. Maybe some thought he was even acting in concert. Regardless, he's an asshole to monster, with no honor. I don't recall picking up that people generally think he was a chickenshit most interested in saving his butt when he kllled Aerys, tho. I was recalling Ned, the Blackfish, Brienne, Catelyn.. I can't think of much wrt the smallfolk though.

[Enguerrand]

Aerys was so well known for being a paranoid, vindictive loon though, who would have cared?

A great many people I would think. In the public conscience he is the king, a person of semi-divine stature. People would listen. And it would make obvious sense, Jaime didn’t give his life for him as he was sworn to do. And his father took king’s landing by treachery, I say that virtually everybody in the kingdom would believe it was collusion. Every regime change needs it’s Benedict Arnold and Jaime is the obvious choice.

I don't recall picking up that people generally think he was a chickenshit most interested in saving his butt when he kllled Aerys, tho.

I meant if he has just deserted and left Aerys for the rebels. But not after he kills the king, that sacrilege erases everything else. And it suits Jaime, he prefers being seen as a villain rather then a coward.

[The Pita]

Never mind, stupid post... ignore me.

[Annelise]

A great many people I would think...

This line requires a fair amount of speculation and Selmy remains a troublesome counterpoint, IMO. Also, there is no custom that KG must take their lives, if they do not die with their liege. There would be, you'd think, like bloodriders, if it was so difficult to maintain honor if the King/royal died and the KG did not. I'm speaking of dying by violence, obviously.

At this point in the series, I find the other reason/s (more) supported by text and characterization, IMO. We'll just have to disagree, I think.

Every regime change needs it’s Benedict Arnold and Jaime is the obvious choice.

I'd actually say Tywin. Aerys was dead as soon as Tywin accessed the city (thanks to Varys), regardless of Jaime. As well, I find self preservation a more compelling argument in his case, as we have it straight from Tywin (to Tyrion).

[Bran]

I like Jaime as much as the next guy, but maybe people think he's a bad person because he fucked his sister, fathered her children, and tossed a seven year old boy out of a window.

For me personally, the incest doesn't put Jaime in a bad light. He loves Cersei, and that's not much he can do about it. It's clear Cersei doesn't feel the same way, but Jaime has made it clear in the past he would give up everything for her if only she would do the same. You could blame him for not fathering his children, but realistically, how could he? He can now, but not when Robert was alive. As for Bran, yes that is inexcusable, but everyone forgets that Jaime is the first to admit it.

[Enguerrand]

This line requires a fair amount of speculation and Selmy remains a troublesome counterpoint, IMO.

Not really. I say it’s pretty natural that people would be interested in how a dynasty that has been ruling for three hundred years could be brought low. Aerys singles out Jaime as a suspected traitor even before the fall. If Jaime was alive and unhurt, kicking around with dad afterwards, you do not need to be paranoid to understand how Aerys and others would view it. Selmy hasn’t the same conflict of interest, or the same superb scapegoat qualities. Besides, Rhaegar wasn’t the king.

o, there is no custom that KG must take their lives, if they do not die with their liege.

I don’t believe I have said otherwise. They do however vow do die before harm comes to the king.

I'd actually say Tywin. Aerys was dead as soon as Tywin accessed the city (thanks to Varys), regardless of Jaime.

Tywin never took his side in the war. While few people would sing song about his chivalry and fidelity, his behavior isn’t remarkable different from other rebel lords. Jaime OTOH would be remembered as the kingsguard who lost the last Targaryren king. Without a very good reason why, I can't see how he wouldn't be singled out.

[The Pita]

For me personally, the incest doesn't put Jaime in a bad light. He loves Cersei, and that's not much he can do about it. It's clear Cersei doesn't feel the same way, but Jaime has made it clear in the past he would give up everything for her if only she would do the same. You could blame him for not fathering his children, but realistically, how could he? He can now, but not when Robert was alive. As for Bran, yes that is inexcusable, but everyone forgets that Jaime is the first to admit it.

Thank you!

That is what I've been trying to say.

Of course, I've been also trying to make myself look insane in the process, so I'm less believed, but still: THANK YOU.

Now, I don't know whether Jaime can fight better than Ned. If he could, he might've been able to kill him and actually save Aerys.

But he didn't fancy risking his life for a man who is trying to get both of them killed.

Also, I don't remember if there are any men at arms there from Ned.

Anyway, when he killed Aerys, he saw a man who was unworthy to rule. He stopped caring about the consequences of removing the king. The options were:

A) Robert Baratheon or one of his lackeys arrive. His life is saved, his honor is not, he is considered hated.

Tywin arrives. He is saved, although his honor is even more tarnished now that he hides behind his father, even when he is accepted it is grudgingly.

C) Targaryen forces arrive, the gallows.

If he would've stayed with Aerys, only one of them would make him risk his life, another would be majorly displeased and would have ended up with his killing his own father for a false king, and another would hail him as a hero. I can just see it. Jaime Lannister, the Kingsaver.

So those who state cowardice are probably mistaken.

[Atreides]

I always thought that Jaime killed Aerys because he was just disgusted by him, and made an executive decision that his king wasn't worth defending, and needed to die. Aerys just pushed Jaime over the edge with the his orders that night.

[The Pita]

That's also a good idea! Better than mine!

However, I juyst needed to run by the scenarios.

And I also remembered he probably wouldn't have had to kill his father, but he would cause the demise of his whole house.

[Westrosi]

Tommen will be Jaime's redemption. I believe Jaime is heading to King's Landing and is going to right the wrongs, for starters by seizing power from Cersei. Tommen will be raised to be honourable, just and everything that Jaime wanted to be; just like Arhur Dayne. Tommen is a character that would have benefitted tremendously from the 5 year gap, which is a main reason why I am a little ticked that it got removed. Tommen is a good hearted little boy, who lacks the evilness of Joffrey and he clearly shows that he opposes his mom's evil behaviour as well. If Jaime can begin to raise Tommen he really could become quite the King. I hope that Tommen is still King when Dany lands, as it will be very interesting.

But tommen is going to have to die some time during Ceresi's life, to make the Frog's prophesy make true. I dn't think its in his fate to ever be king...

[Antonius Pius]

Fair point about Selmy. I don’t recall was he assigned to Rhaegar personal protection? Or was he leading troops in battle? He couldn’t have done both.

I'm not sure either, but I always assumed he was fighting in the general vicinty of Rhaegar. But he had been wounded several times, which means he could have been separated from Rhaegar at any time. To his credit, he stayed, fighting for the cause of House Targaryen.

His situation was also worse since if he wasn’t killed, his lack of commitment would be attributed to his divided loyalties. He would always be known as the kingsguard that failed the king if he survived, whether he mutilated himself or not.

Jaime would probably always be in a double bind, but to be fair, that didn't seem to be foremost in his thoughts... I agree with Annalise's initial conclusion that he killed Aerys out of spite and a sense for vengeance.

With Aerys death and his father’s backing they could have concocted a story on of Jaime was valiantly overmanned holding the south gate or something. Still without a very obvious wound this story would have been ridiculed. But it would have spared Jaime the worst disgrace and no one would have cared to challenge Tywin over it. Unfortunately for Jaime he was caught in the act.p

I have a feeling Ned was always going to have a problem with Jaime, but a coward is not the same as a traitor. But you're right, Jaime being caught in the act severly limited his possibilities.

No I don’t think so either but that is how it would perceived by many people that haven’t the benefit of Jaime’s POV. And Jaime is all about glory, he wants to be seen as Lancelot , not Judas.

Maybe not entirely... He obsesses about glory now because he feels he has been cheated of his just due.. (to which Ned would agree, but with a different form of justice in mind). He can't stand that he has shit for honour, all the more because he feels killing Aerys was his "greatest deed". As a seventeen-year-old, I don't think he was obsessed with glory. He wanted to be a knight and fight (and win some glory, to be sure). He did not join the Kingsguard for glory (which was the pinnacle of glory in Aerys' day) but for sex.

This line requires a fair amount of speculation and Selmy remains a troublesome counterpoint, IMO. Also, there is no custom that KG must take their lives, if they do not die with their liege. There would be, you'd think, like bloodriders, if it was so difficult to maintain honor if the King/royal died and the KG did not. I'm speaking of dying by violence, obviously.

I believe the formula is "being prepared to die trying to keep the king alive", not "dying with the king regardless". Barristan has kept his honour because he kept on fighting heroically for House Targaryen, even though he was severly wounded. Which was exactly what was required of him.

[The Bastard of Godsgrace]

I can't seem to be able to quote, but I remember someone saying how the line between killing one person for someones best interest and nazisticly killing six million people for best interests is nonexistent, but i disagree.

What the Nazis did was wrong, but what IF killing six million people, for different resons, could infact, save the rest of the Earth's population. Say, for example, eight million and change people around the world were infected with a deadly virus that was both airborn and transmittable by touch or by touching something that an infected person had touched. Somehow you are given the power to kill all of them, and if you don't in two days time everyone will be dead. What would you do?

If Jaime hadn't thrown Bran from the window and their secret had somehow gotten out, wouldn't that had sparked a civil war anyway.

Just some thoughts.

Sir Deamon Sand

[Benjen Snow]

I can't seem to be able to quote, but I remember someone saying how the line between killing one person for someones best interest and nazisticly killing six million people for best interests is nonexistent, but i disagree.

What the Nazis did was wrong, but what IF killing six million people, for different resons, could infact, save the rest of the Earth's population. Say, for example, eight million and change people around the world were infected with a deadly virus that was both airborn and transmittable by touch or by touching something that an infected person had touched. Somehow you are given the power to kill all of them, and if you don't in two days time everyone will be dead. What would you do?

If Jaime hadn't thrown Bran from the window and their secret had somehow gotten out, wouldn't that had sparked a civil war anyway.

Just some thoughts.

Sir Deamon Sand

This is a variation on the intro to Philosophy Docter vs Train Conductor dilema. One piece that doesn't work however is......Jaime could have avoided this chance for Civil War by not committing treason by sleeping with the Queen and perpetrating the fraud from the begging. When he kills Bran sure he might have delayed or averted the civil war but.....the risk in the first place stems from he and Cersei's sins. For your contagion parrallel to work in this case the person deciding to slaughter 8 million to save the world would also have to be the architect of or at least inadvertent creator of the contagion. I also have to wonder if Jaime had killed for the cover up before Bran or would repeat the kill if given the choice now. Good post!

[The Pita]

One death is horrible, a million is a statistic.

Some dead guy once said that.

And Jaime has shown regret for trying to kill Bran.

Not because he felt bad for an innocent 8 year old, of course, but because Cersei gave him some hell about it, and apparently so are other people now, and his brother was blamed for it.

[Benjen Snow]

One death is horrible, a million is a statistic.

Some dead guy once said that.

And Jaime has shown regret for trying to kill Bran.

Not because he felt bad for an innocent 8 year old, of course, but because Cersei gave him some hell about it, and apparently so are other people now, and his brother was blamed for it.

Good to see the ever vigilant protector of Jaime answered the call with alacrity!!

[Antonius Pius]

I can't seem to be able to quote, but I remember someone saying how the line between killing one person for someones best interest and nazisticly killing six million people for best interests is nonexistent, but i disagree.

One death is horrible, a million is a statistic.

Some dead guy once said that.

Heinrich Himmler said: "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths are merely statistics".

What the Nazis did was wrong, but what IF killing six million people, for different resons, could infact, save the rest of the Earth's population.

This can never happen, it's too far-fetched.

If Jaime hadn't thrown Bran from the window and their secret had somehow gotten out, wouldn't that had sparked a civil war anyway.

The point being, it's the fornication that's the source of the civil war, not what some boy sees.

One piece that doesn't work however is......Jaime could have avoided this chance for Civil War by not committing treason by sleeping with the Queen and perpetrating the fraud from the begging. When he kills Bran sure he might have delayed or averted the civil war but.....the risk in the first place stems from he and Cersei's sins.

Echo that.

Ed: spelling

[The Pita]

Good to see the ever vigilant protector of Jaime answered the call with alacrity!!

I was busy...umm...sleeping...and...seeing other threads...and...umm... I dunno...

Well, Himmler said that I guess. No clue what relevance it holds.

Anyway, my point is that while Jaime would not have good intentions, he would not have thrown Bran out the window. In fact, in the state he is now, I don't think he would have been with his sister (mainly because right now he pretty much left her to die, wheteher intentionally or not, and probably won't regret it when he hears that his sister is being taken for treason. I actually believe his thought is going to be "Tyrion lied. I guess she isn't fucking Moon Boy").