The Best Thing Jaime Could Do

[Brother Wolf]

I agree with Craigopogo. In short, Jaime never really had to "grow up" and be a man. He could get by with being a petulant adolescent because his sword could back up whatever he said. Now, he's having to reflect on his actions and mature. Not that he's necessarily repentant of all his deeds, but at least he's finally *thinking* about them.

I don't think there's any real justification for pushing a 7 year old out of a window (helping him up to the ledge just made the final decision all that much worse, IMHO). The question in my mind is: given the same situation now, would Jaime do it again? Depending on how you answer that question indicates whether or not you think Jaime is *changed* now. Personally, I don't think he would. When he actually did it, he thinks he's doing it for love. I think he's learned something about love since then (as in, Cersei's idea of love is kind of twisted).

[Antonius Pius]

Though 'it wasn't what it looks like' - would have actually probably been fun to read.

"Oh well, my sister and I were just naked because she wanted to go larking because she wanted to go hunting and dress up as me. You see, child, she likes hunting...it's just like your sister Arya wanting to be a boy instead of a girl...so that she can play with swords..."

Well, Bran was an eight-year-old... Maybe he knew about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees, or maybe he could be persuaded that Cersei was groaning because she was in pain... Who knows? Though I freely admit, the part about both being naked is tricky...

[Multaniette]

Die.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Um Ok I bite. What are we talking about here? It is a bit cryptic. Is it PC that keeps us afraid of the slope? Who is taking over? Is this a fatwaah being issued on a particular group? Perhaps it all makes sense but as stated it seems to be innuendo and largely undecipherable to me. Jaime served as the muse for this or those critiquing Pita's justifications for Jaime's actions?

Sorry, I'd been drinking (drowning my sorrows over the bad news from Washington) and the headline's of yesterday's news slipped into my commentary. Yes, I was speaking of the need to be politically correct and the fear of being seen as "Bad Guys" for doing what is right to protect ourselves... Just ignore it and go on. Shall we?

[Enguerrand]

Would you think he's a bad person?

People think he was evil because he did bad things to Starks.

But the Starks were the ones who would not hear his words.

The Starks endangered the things he loved most in his life.

The Starks were doing things they should not have (Kidnapping his brother, spying on him and his sister)

Why are people annoyed because they can't see without biase?

Actually, I think the pain he has inflicted on the Starks is actually the least heinous of Jaime’s crimes. . Plunging the realms into civil war and spitting on all the law and tradition of Westeros, killing people when they wont recognize his false bastard son is a great deal more serious.

But it's amusing that you compare an small child old peekaboing with a man that is responsible for civil war and high treason and endless misery. But I guess that to be a true Jaime fanboy you have to defend the maiming of Bran.

Jaime is bad person because he does bad things consistently. Everything is right as long as it serves his vanity and desires. He joined the kingsguard to be with his sister and for glory. He was the rich, talented, handsome boy, of highest birth, that thought he would get all the perks and none of the tedious duties and he has been wiping his ass with the white book ever since.

When it comes to Aerys nothing indicated it was necessary to kill him to save capital, yet all Jaime fanboys take his excuses at face value and treat them as the one thing was dependent on the other. Notice that one time Jaime chose to act on the behalf of Aerys victims is when his own butt is on the line. Such a great humanitarian.

Also notice that Jaime doesn’t feel a hint of remorse for is part in the plot to kill and betray Robert and destroying house Baratheon. A man that pardoned him, whose confidence he swore to protect. Which Jaime rewarded with fucking his queen and aborting his children. He is the consummate hypocrite because he seem to believe that protecting his bastards is compatible with the tenets of the kingsguard vow. He lambast his brothers when they doesn’t serve Tommen well enough, all the time knowing that it’s a charade and that he robs them of their honor to hide his crimes.

Dutiful to his father

Actually no, Jaime consistently put his own desires above his wishes and the needs of his house.

Joining the kingsguard, fucking his sister, Jaime is disobedient and unmindful of his father's wishes and in the end Tywin even renounce him for it.

Serves his king

Huh? which books have you read?

[Daemrion]

Well, Bran was an eight-year-old... Maybe he knew about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees, or maybe he could be persuaded that Cersei was groaning because she was in pain... Who knows? Though I freely admit, the part about both being naked is tricky...

LOL.

Enguerrand, I'm not interested in a long-winded argument at this time.

Suffice to say that we will agree to disagree about Aerys. I think the safest best option was for him to die.

Look, if you really want to see it in a different light, just see it as Aerys repudiating the throne by going about a genocidal rampage, destroying his people meaning that at that time he was unfit to sit on the Throne. And then he was no King.

[The Pita]

Actually, I think the pain he has inflicted on the Starks is actually the least heinous of Jaime’s crimes. . Plunging the realms into civil war and spitting on all the law and tradition of Westeros, killing people when they wont recognize his false bastard son is a great deal more serious.

But it's amusing that you compare an small child old peekaboing with a man that is responsible for civil war and high treason and endless misery. But I guess that to be a true Jaime fanboy you have to defend the maiming of Bran.

I was only called on to defend the maiming of Bran. He didn't plunge any realm into civil war, and he did not kill people when they didn't recognise his bastard son. Cersei killed the ones who did.

Jaime is bad person because he does bad things consistently. Everything is right as long as it serves his vanity and desires. He joined the kingsguard to be with his sister and for glory. He was the rich, talented, handsome boy, of highest birth, that thought he would get all the perks and none of the tedious duties and he has been wiping his ass with the white book ever since.

I never said he was a great knight of the kingsguard.

He joined the kingsguard for a woman. Let's ignore that fucking that woman would go against every natural law-It was as much her fault as his.

When it comes to Aerys nothing indicated it was necessary to kill him to save capital, yet all Jaime fanboys take his excuses at face value and treat them as the one thing was dependent on the other. Notice that one time Jaime chose to act on the behalf of Aerys victims is when his own butt is on the line. Such a great humanitarian.

Oh sure, kill him when he's surrounded by Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne, brilliant move.

Huh? which books have you read?

A Song of Ice and Fire. And he did serve his king. King Robert. King Aerys was never considered His King by him. Although he did plan on killing this one eventually, nothing was carried out, and it was mainly a random thought.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I never said he was a great knight of the kingsguard.

He joined the kingsguard for a woman. Let's ignore that fucking that woman would go against every natural law-It was as much her fault as his.

A Song of Ice and Fire. And he did serve his king. King Robert. King Aerys was never considered His King by him. Although he did plan on killing this one eventually, nothing was carried out, and it was mainly a random thought.

Doesn't sleeping with the king's wife goes against the meaning of being one of his guards? He put horns to the king and dirtied his honor. Remember how Victarion reacted when he found his wife sleeping with his brother?

Beside the King's guard is not Robert's personal guard, they are the guardians of the entire royal family. Jaime planted little ckoockoos in his king's nest and prevented any future of the family from happenning. You can say it's all Cercei's fault and it is of course but Jaime help her along and broke his vows in the process.

[Enguerrand]

Enguerrand, I'm not interested in a long-winded argument at this time. :

Pity, I was so looking forward to ten pages of why, all evidence to the contrary, Jaime is a swell guy..

I was only called on to defend the maiming of Bran. He didn't plunge any realm into civil war, and he did not kill people when they didn't recognise his bastard son. Cersei killed the ones who did.

Yes he did, he was willing accomplice in treason, in putting his desires and over the concern over the people that would suffer because he cared to put an impostor on the throne. I distinctly remember him killing a bunch of people at Riverrun that opposed Joffery which Jaime knew was an false king. This is even more remarkable since it’s the Kingsguard duty to preserve the kings integrity and legacy.

He joined the kingsguard for a woman. Let's ignore that fucking that woman would go against every natural law-It was as much her fault as his.

It was Jaime who swore the kingsguard oath and donned the white cloak, he asked for it, not even he is whiny enough to blame Cersie for his crimes.

Oh sure, kill him when he's surrounded by Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne, brilliant move.

Yeah heaven forbid Jaime actually had to pay a price for doing the right thing. Abusing and old unarmed mans trust was more to Jaime’s likening. His greatest moment, or what he calls it.

A Song of Ice and Fire. And he did serve his king. King Robert. King Aerys was never considered His King by him. Although he did plan on killing this one eventually, nothing was carried out, and it was mainly a random thought.

You think Robert appreciated him “serving†his queen, killing his heirs, destroying his legacy and putting his bastards on his throne?

You do not even understand that his betrayal of Robert was ten times worse then what he did to Aerys? And that wasn’t a spur of the moment decision, but a systematic deliberate abuse of his trust year after year.

If any red priest gets their hand on Robert’s corpse Jaime would be the first on his to do list, not getting a watch for ten years of faithful service.

[Sijjvra Visz]

I'm not sure anyone here is claiming Jamie is a 'swell guy'.

He's an anti-hero. That means, someone who does awful things in many instances, but someone a lot of people like or can understand the motives for anyway, right or wrong. Was throwing Bran out of the window good? Hell no. I don't think anyone is trying to justify that. Is sleeping with your sister right? No, it's not, but he does love her and you can almost pity him for how shitty Cersei ends up treating and using him. Is cheating with your king's wife good? No, but to be fair, Jamie was Cersei's lover long before Robert came into the picture. Was killing Aerys good?

Yeah, actually it was... no matter what reasons people want to give, that was a noble move on Jamie's part, and he claimed to have done it for noble reasons. Aerys was mad, Jamie did what he had to when it was the 'safest' time to end that madness. Saving Brienne...he didn't have to do that. Asking Brienne to find Sansa. Didn't have to do that. Refusing to run back to Cersei when she begged him for help in her latest schemes. Didn't have to do that. Trying to convince Cersei Tommen needed to be fostered somewhere else, wise advice, didn't have to do that. Trying to give Riverrun every possible option to avoid a confrontation to keep his promise. Didn't have to do that.

Jamie does good things and bad things. Lately, he's been doing more good than bad. No one here is denying his faults or saying what he's done wrong is 'swell'. But he's not all shades of black and evil. He is not the most vile character in the series -by far- and he seems to be changing bit by bit, and trying to regain his nobility. We'll see where that leads, but as it stands, lately...Jamie is doing more good than bad, for whatever reasons people percieve it as.

[Starkess]

I'm not sure anyone here is claiming Jamie is a 'swell guy'.

Unfortunately, I'm getting that impression from a couple people in this thread. Don't have time to go through and find the specific things they said that made me think that, but I feel like some people are trying to say Jaime is an awesome guy and has been since BEFORE his redemption arc and that he has been completely justified in everything he's done. And if he isn't it's Cersei's fault.

[Daemrion]

My thinking is that the loss of sword hand is symbolic for the loss of everything that made him evil to begin with. It's the sort of the whole 'new slate' thing, for me, that's what it stands for.

I know plenty disagree.

Yeah heaven forbid Jaime actually had to pay a price for doing the right thing. Abusing and old unarmed mans trust was more to Jaime’s likening. His greatest moment, or what he calls it.

Aerys i don't think should have ever trusted Jaime, considering the why he chose Jaime. Aerys was just naive. And if I were someone in Kings Landing, I would have been cheering the fact that my attempted murderer just got spitted.

[A Time for Wolves]

I too loved him from AGoT. Other people can have Littlefinger; Jaime was my choice of pet psycho(along with Sandor) from the beginning. His scene with Catelyn in ACoK is one of my very favorite scenes in the series. He's a POW and chained to the wall in his enemy's dungeon and he's still cool.

Oh my. And I thought I was the disturbingly crazed Jaime fanatic I hated Jaime with a vengeance until ASOS, but now I'm mad with love for him. Then I re-read AGOT and ACOK and fell a little more in love. Yes, the scene where Catelyn interrogates him makes me melt even now. Actually all his scenes...

Ahem. So the best thing Jaime could do would be to let Cersei die on the plaza at Blessed Baelor's feet (I can just see Ned smiling down on that), beheaded by a Warrior's Son, and then Jaime goes to change Tommen's small council. It would be nice to see him taking responsibility for his son, but I can't see a strong bond developing between them. Jaime said himself that other men might be fathers, sons or husbands, but Jaime is a warrior, and that's all he's made to be. So I don't see Jaime and Tommen developing a strong, real father-son relationship, but if Jaime tried to guide and protect the boy, it would be a big step for Jaime's character development.

And then when the dragons come and King's Landing burns, they'll both probably die, but I don't really want to think about that.

[The_BlauerDragon]

A Song of Ice and Fire. And he did serve his king. King Robert. King Aerys was never considered His King by him. Although he did plan on killing this one eventually, nothing was carried out, and it was mainly a random thought.

How exactly did he serve Robert? Was it by giving Robert those wonderful Lannister children of his to raise as his heirs? Oh, wait, I know... It was by satisfying the lustful desires of the whore Robert was married to, right? That's the closest he ever came to serving Robert.

[The Pita]

Unfortunately, I'm getting that impression from a couple people in this thread. Don't have time to go through and find the specific things they said that made me think that, but I feel like some people are trying to say Jaime is an awesome guy and has been since BEFORE his redemption arc and that he has been completely justified in everything he's done. And if he isn't it's Cersei's fault.

I'm just trying to mkae myself sound insane.

I am not justifying Jaime's acts, I'm finding his justification. Small difference, but difference. I don't think Jaime's a good person, I think he's better than he is thought to be by a lot of the people here.

That's why I keep my stand that puts Jaime in divine kindness. Because almost evewruone else here hates him, and I want to annoy them for not trying to listen to other views. I personally believe He was a cocky, arrogant ass who, when we come down to it, was a terrible person with one good act, done in the wrong circumstances for it to be heroic.

I can just make people believe I'm on his side. I'm an ass.

[Benjen Snow]

I'm just trying to mkae myself sound insane.

I am not justifying Jaime's acts, I'm finding his justification. Small difference, but difference. I don't think Jaime's a good person, I think he's better than he is thought to be by a lot of the people here.

That's why I keep my stand that puts Jaime in divine kindness. ..........................believe He was a cocky, arrogant ass who, when we come down to it, was a terrible person with one good act, done in the wrong circumstances for it to be heroic.

I can just make people believe I'm on his side. I'm an ass.

Are you saying you didn't mean all the things you said before like Jaime is the best of his family? Or I am modeling myself after Jaime? Or Tyrion may be kinder but Jaime is a better person??

[Enguerrand]

Aerys i don't think should have ever trusted Jaime, considering the why he chose Jaime. Aerys was just naive.

Obviously, but Aerys was hardly the only one that found concept of a a kingsguard killing the king inconceivable.

And if I were someone in Kings Landing, I would have been cheering the fact that my attempted murderer just got spitted.

Sure but I’m not so certain Jaime would be cheered though. People who sells out their boss when everything is lost to save their own skin, seldom gets much respect. Like Judas, Marmont, Himmler etc

[The Pita]

Are you saying you didn't mean all the things you said before like Jaime is the best of his family? Or I am modeling myself after Jaime? Or Tyrion may be kinder but Jaime is a better person??

I DO think Jaime is the best of his family, and he does have some traits I look up to in myself.

I can understand how this annoyed you. I'm laughing already.

[Annelise]

Sure but I’m not so certain Jaime would be cheered though. People who sells out their boss when everything is lost to save their own skin, seldom gets much respect.

I'm not sure how everything was lost, from Jaime's POV. Unless you mean that the sellout started when he killed Rossart? I personally never blinked at that myself, seemed a good move to me, but I've always had an issue with the reoccuring instances wrt blind obedience of the KG (like beating Sansa, etc.) Jaime's personality never was a good fit for the KG, IMO. I don't mean to imply that he's the only one who thinks for himself, incidently. Just his overall personality was a bad fit: impulsive, selfish, arrogant, independent.

Aerys is another matter ofc, but at that point I don't see that everything was lost and that he was in a position of having to save his own skin. I think Jaime could have avoided any personal harm and avoided dishonor, even. I think he just decided Aerys was a POS man and a disasterous King who needed killing, and he was the one to do it. Maybe because he stood idle (but faithful to his vows) those other times, dunno. I don't really buy that it was all because he thought Aerys would keep sending others to blow up the city; I think he'd just reached the point of really wanting to kill Aerys and the wildfire stuff was just a little extra incentive. (That Aerys' intention was to blow up the city I don't consider in dispute, as I believe Jaime's account is supported elsewhere... Tyrion perhaps, when dealing with the pyromancers in ACOK? That they found jars of the stuff stashed beneath the city in someone's POV, IIRC).

Jaime is a very entertaining, interesting character, that I enjoy a great deal. That said, he is an extremely self centered and I think you have to view his character growth with that in mind. Brienne is *his* last chance for honor. He's interested in keeping his oath to Catelyn, because he's trying to shift his own self image a little more toward Ser Arthur Dayne & a little farther from the Smiling Knight. Confessing to Tyrion about Tysha was for himself, IMO. Interceding on behalf of Tommen, primarily for himself, though I think he does have a (growing) interest in his son and the realm.

[Enguerrand]

I'm not sure how everything was lost, from Jaime's POV. Unless you mean that the sellout started when he killed Rossart?

Jaime chose to kill Aerys when the Red Keep was under assault and he was expected to fullfill the ultimate duty of a kingsguard, dying before harm comes to the king. This is the moment he decide call out Aerys for his actions. Most people would assume he was driven by cowardice, not concern for the people of King's Landing.

I think Jaime could have avoided any personal harm and avoided dishonor, even.

Oh I'm sure he could have surrendered to his father, but how could he have avoided dishonor?

If Aerys is killed or captured it will reflect upon Jaime if he is alive. His disgrace would be of epic proportions.