The War of the Three Queens

[Worthy Dane]

In the last Sansa chapter in AFFC, Littlefinger mentions that the war of 5 kings is winding down, and a war of 3 queens is brewing. So - with all the queens running around, I wonder which 3 he is referring to. Here's my take on the possible queens. Please tell me which 3 you think are the real ones, and whether there are any queens I may have missed.

1) The Bitch Queen, Cersie. No doubt here, Cersei is the regent. At least for now.

2) Queen Dany. How much does LF know about her? Hard to say, but with all the rumors floating around Westeros, I bet he knows she is significant.

3) Queen Margaery. Here I start to get less certain, but she seems to represent the whole Tyrell clan. If she can get free of the Sparrows, I think she'll be quite a power.

4) Queen Jeyne. Anyone unhappy with Lannister misrule (nearly everyone at this point) could set her up to lead an uprising

5) Queen Myrcella. She's got half a face, but she's smart. Don't count her out.

6) Queen of the Damned Caitlin of course. She and her army of demons could easily take over the world.

7) Queen of Thorns She's got Left, Right, Butterbumps, Mace's ear, and probably a few spare tears of Lys.

8) Queen Sansa. Why not? With a power vacuum in KL, LF could name her not only the heir to Winterfell, but the heir to the Northern crown.

[Benjen]

Cersei and Margaery and Dany.

LF had a hand in setting up the Marge v. Cersei struggle so I think those two are a given.

The third is Dany. LF has known about her all along. He was sitting on Robert's small council when the news came in that Dany had married Khal Drogo and was pregnant. He recommended that they kill her at the time, and I doubt he's forgotten or missed the fact that no one showed up to claim the reward. He's also wealthy, and got that way by playing the market around the Narrow Sea wisely. One doesn't get rich in that way if they are not well informed. I don't think he's missed the news about the trouble in Slaver's Bay or all the whispers of dragons there. He knows. and he's trying to get into a position where he'll be indispensible to whoever ends up with the throne...

[Dycedarg]

I think you've got em all and I think he was referring to the top three. Cersei is obvious (he mentions her in the same breath), he knows about Dany and given the situation in KL at the time Margaery is the most likely #3. While he certainly knows the QoT I don't think he'd count her. Jeyne and Myrcella have no power and he probably doesn't know about Arienne's attempt to queen the latter. I'm not sure how much he knows about UnCat, if anything so she's not terribly likely either.

Wait, there is one Queen you've missed: The Queen of Whores (not Cersei, the other one).

[Benjen]

Wait, there is one Queen you've missed: The Queen of Whores (not Cersei, the other one).

good one

[Mad Monkey]

1) The Bitch Queen, Cersie. No doubt here, Cersei is the regent. At least for now.

Well, Pycelle and Harys Swyft seized control of the government, so if she is the Regent then it's only in name. According to Qyburn, they're going to install Kevan Lannister as Regent and the Hand too, I think. So, unless Kevan is willing to dress up as a woman and talk in a high falsetto voice then I don't think that we're going to have another Bitch Queen.

2) Queen Dany. How much does LF know about her? Hard to say, but with all the rumors floating around Westeros, I bet he knows she is significant.

I think that she's definitely one of the Three Queens, if there is going to be a War of the Queens.

3) Queen Margaery. Here I start to get less certain, but she seems to represent the whole Tyrell clan. If she can get free of the Sparrows, I think she'll be quite a power.

She might be. According to Qyburn, Lord Mace is marching onto King's Landing to rescue her. The latest Cersei screw-up might make them rethink the whole 'Casterly Rock/Highgarden Axis' but then again Kevan might be able to persuade them to stick with the Lannisters.

4) Queen Jeyne. Anyone unhappy with Lannister misrule (nearly everyone at this point) could set her up to lead an uprising

At best she can try for Queen in the North, but her claim is really weak. It depends entirely on a ruse concocted by the Lannisters, and I hardly think that Kevan will sit by and allow her to become a rebel lady without at least trying to out her.

5) Queen Myrcella. She's got half a face, but she's smart. Don't count her out.

She's smart, but does she really have a chance? Unless Tommen dies, her principal supporter is Arianne, and she's probably behind Doran's plan to ally himself with Daenerys.

6) Queen of the Damned Caitlin of course. She and her army of demons could easily take over the world.

She doesn't even want to take over the world. All she wants to do is exterminate all Freys.

7) Queen of Thorns She's got Left, Right, Butterbumps, Mace's ear, and probably a few spare tears of Lys.

I don't think that she has any designs on a crown, at least not for herself. If Margaery ends up being one of the Queens, then it's very unlikely that she'll wage war on her favorite grand-daughter.

8) Queen Sansa. Why not? With a power vacuum in KL, LF could name her not only the heir to Winterfell, but the heir to the Northern crown.

That's very possible. Her claim comes before Arya's (which means that it comes before the imposter Jeyne Poole's) and LF is working on a dubious plan

to get the Vale to declare for her. Still, that's one against six; if she rebels as is then she'll probably be smacked down.

Wait, there is one Queen you've missed: The Queen of Whores (not Cersei, the other one).

She's probably dead. She left with Ser Ryman and he was attacked by Lady Catelyn. Although death is not as permanent for some women as for others...

[Wargonaut]

She doesn't even want to take over the world. All she wants to do is exterminate all Freys.

She also wants to kill the Lannisters. Her desire to have Brienne take out Jaime was proof enough. Not to mention, she thinks the Lannisters were behind, not only Ned's death, but also Bran's near-death and Sansa & Arya's fate. Though she is right about some of that, she has missed quite a lot. Unbeknownst to her, her scorn has become partially misdirected.

I think UnCat is going to definitely throw a wrench into things. She will be a huge distraction in what is to come. She may eventually be the end of Jaime; but at the least, it seems she might interfere with his "redemption" some how, some way. Though she had always been a protagonist, and remains sympathetic, she will be a thorn in the side of the plot. I don't think any "good" can really come of UnCat's "rebirth." Though it will be nice to watch the Frey's drop like flies, her vendetta will become a nuisance.

[J. H. Sorrow]

Just to throw out the possibility your overlooking the would be Queen Asha Greyjoy. Sure she lost the queensmoot but I think she's more likely to contribute to a conflict than Jeyne Stark/Westerling.

As for the Western Alliance I think Kevan will try and patch it up but he is no Tywin. After what Cersei did to Margary and her apathy towards the war in the Reach they will have a mile long list of terms which Kevan may not be able to swallow.

This scenario coulds result in a war between the Rock and Highgarden. Rightfully the Tyrell's will see themselves of having been wronged and Mace is like to demand unwinnable concessions. You get two queens right there with Margary/Olenna for Tyrell and Cersei for Lannister(as the cause of the war rather than the leader).

Dornme might dodge the bullet here since if war did erupt over Myrcella it would mainly be between Done and the Stormlands (on behalf of the Iron Throne). This would peg Arrianne for number three, again as a catalyst rather than ruler. Of course with the future of Dorne we must consider the secret mission of Ser Balon Swann.

[GoatLord]

As for the Western Alliance I think Kevan will try and patch it up but he is no Tywin. After what Cersei did to Margary and her apathy towards the war in the Reach they will have a mile long list of terms which Kevan may not be able to swallow.

This scenario coulds result in a war between the Rock and Highgarden. Rightfully the Tyrell's will see themselves of having been wronged and Mace is like to demand unwinnable concessions. You get two queens right there with Margary/Olenna for Tyrell and Cersei for Lannister(as the cause of the war rather than the leader).

And what exactly are the Tyrells going to do if their demands aren't met? Tell the Lannisters to take their throne and shove it? Without Tommen they have no claim to the throne, and while he's young, he hasn't given any indication that he's as stupid as his older brother. He's going to start asking where the hell his family is long before he starts making any heirs. And until Tommen produces a baby boy with Margery, the Tyrells need to keep him alive.

Of course, Dany will throw a wrench in all of these plans, but I'm sure Mace would like to see his grandson as king, and I doubt Dany is interested in marrying a cripple twice her age.

[Blackest_Fyre]

I think he's thinking of it as war because of armies involved, not necessarily political power. That rules out Queen Jeyne, Queen of Thorns, etc.

The most obvious military threats are a) Cersei - Lannister power; Margaery - Tyrells will fight for her, even in rebellion; c) Dany - coming across Sea with her army.

Asha would have been an intriguing one had she been crowned. I'm actually fairly convinced that the Crow's Eye has to die (we generally see really evil characters get their just rewards sooner or later, and I'm pretty sure he's bad to the bone) in the next few books. Maybe Asha will expand the war to four queens.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Cerccei and Mararey are certainly two of the three but Dany doesn't really fit. She's causing havoc all right but in the other end of the earth. She might bring war later on to Westeros but at the moment she's only a distant potential. Myrcella on the other hand is about to plunge Dorne into war with the Lannisters and their allies. She's the third queen that is participating in the war of the three queens. (remember Dany does everything in threes. It wouldn't make sense for her to participate in the second Westerosi war. She would have to be in the third one.)

[MTGAP]

Cersei and Dany, definitely. Not sure about Margaery.

LF has known about Dany all along. Varys is on Dany's side ("My duty is to the realm"), and as we saw early on, he is in league with LF. It's likely that LF is going to support Dany.

[Daeric]

Probably Cersei, Dany and Margaery, through either Dany or Margaery could be substitued out for Myrcella if events in Dorne begin to get out of the control of Dorans hands

[Dycedarg]

Cerccei and Mararey are certainly two of the three but Dany doesn't really fit. She's causing havoc all right but in the other end of the earth. She might bring war later on to Westeros but at the moment she's only a distant potential.

She also has the potential to be more disruptive than any of the other contenders, Littlefinger knows about her and frankly none of the other possibilities make much sense.

[Worthy Dane]

Though she had always been a protagonist, and remains sympathetic...

I don't think she's all that sympathetic anymore. I wish her well on her killing spree, but I think she has perverted the once (semi-)noble Brotherhood without Banners, turning them into something entirely un-wholesome. I believe she is going to cause trouble for our heroes. (Whoever they may be.)

[fionwe1987]

My list...

1)Cersei/Margery:

It just can't be both. If Margery has to be queen, Cersei has to be out of the way. If Cersei is one queen, then, for her to be really destructive, she will need Highgarden's power, which means Margery won't be a queen warring against her. Personally, I think Cersei fits the bill, given the prophesy that a more beautiful queen would dethrone her.

2)Dany (duh).

3)Sansa:

If Littlefinger's ploy were to succeed, she will indeed be a power to reckon with. Not only will she have the Vale (with its fresh armies) and the North, the Riverlands will support her too. She could very well be Queen in the North, and then expand from there.

Given the whole Ice and Fire thing, given that there have been lots of hints that the Starks and the Targs have to work together, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if Sansa and Dany were to be opposing each other.

Edit: More thoughts on a Stark (Sansa) Targ (Dany) standoff:

There are two points I want to address here.

Firstly, the last time the Targs invaded Westeros, the Starks surrendered, seeing good sense in not battling Dragons. The situation has changed now, ofcourse, but if anyone (from the mainlands) can be expected to see the use of Dragons against the Others, its the Starks, who have got the most major connections with the Night Watch among all the noble houses. Three hundred years ago, we had the Last King in the North surrendering to the first Targ King. This time, we could well have the last Queen in the North surrendering to the first Queen of the Targs.

Secondly, around 20 years ago, Rhaegar's attempt to save the world (I assume there was some such motive for his running away with Lyanna), lead to a devastating war that was basically a Stark-Targ standoff. The war certainly made Westeros more vulnerable to attack from the Others.

This time we have Westeros already devastated, and any possible Stark-Targ standoff will only make it easier for the Others. If there were to be a possibility of a Stark-Targ standoff, and if it were to be averted in the last minute by an alliance between them to save the world from the Others, we would have a situation that rather neatly mirrors the events of 20 years ago.

Given these facts, I think Cersei will soon be challenged on two fronts. First, Sansa will become Queen in the North, and with Littlefinger's backing, will be a major threat to Cersei. As things are about to come to a head, Dany will attack from the south (Dorne, the last kingdom to join the Targs the last time round, will now be the first, again an inversion), and conquer KL (fulfilling the prophesy made to Cersei).

There will now be the threat of a major standoff between the North under Sansa (which has the least reason to support Dany, due to the Lyanna thing) and Dany in the South.

This may be resolved in several possible ways:

1) Just as war is about to begin, Jon sends word that the Others are attacking big time. (Incidentally, in the same chapter which mentions the War of the three Queens, Sansa remembers Jon fondly and thinks how sweet it would be to meet him. So the QitN and Jon should have a cordial relatgionship). The two parties will make a truce and turn their forces northward.

2)R+L=J will be revealed. The Northmen will realize Lyanna was not raped. Sansa will trick Littlefinger (and finish him off) and go in for a truce with Dany.

3)Bran surfaces in the right moment and Sansa has to step down by default. Bran, due to what he has learned from Coldhands and what he has observed beyond the Wall, will ally with Dany.

Ofcourse, there are a lot of finer details which cannot be predicted, and even these scenarios can be alters. Basically, my point is that a Stark Targ confrontation will almost happen, and will be prevented just in time to face the attack of the Wildlings.

[Michael Jon Snow]

I think you nailed it. Not bad for a n00b.

My list...

1)Cersei/Margery:

2)Dany (duh).

3)Sansa:

I think LF is predicting the standoff between Marge (whom I think will come out on top)[Lannister/Tyrell] Sansa [stark/Arryn/Tully] and Dany [Targ/Martell/et al]

I don't think LF believes/knows about the threat from the others.

And this is how I think the story will progress. At the end of DWD, Dany will be in or nearing Dorne with an alliance in hand. The next book will start with two conflicts. NW/Stannis/Wildling/North VS Others and Dany v. Marge v. Sansa. It will end when the 3 queens realize that there is a bigger battle to fight.

[Lord of Lannister]

While I don't have my books atm and didn't do any reread lately, I am pretty sure LF was thinking about a war which has/is (already) started. That timeline wouldnt exactly allow for Sansa to be one of the queens as it takes some time to marry the heir of the Vale (forgot his name), to kill him and to come out. Besides, don't forget that fighting wars as a warlord is NOT LF's way (I am sure that that thought horrifies him just as much as it does to me - it would mean that LF would get axed, leaving no interesting character in the series ). The current 'war' that is raging is between Cercei and Marge, with Dany invading soon (LF only knows that Dany was coming and that she is conquering cities fast - I am sure some of his merchant friends told him that at least).

LF will only move in when most of the fighting is done I bet....

[Michael Jon Snow]

LoL

While I agree with you about LFs aversion to fighting, I took the War of the 3 Queens to be something about to start, not something already going.

LF will make his move when it is best for LF, to be sure. I think that will be when Marge (or Cersei, if she does indeed come out of this) is busy with the invader Dany. It will be a land grab while everyone's back is turned.

I think it will be these 3 (Sansa, Marge, Dany) teenage women who will be posturing for control of Westeros when the threat of the Others becomes known.

[Worthy Dane]

Firstly, the last time the Targs invaded Westeros, the Starks surrendered, seeing good sense in not battling Dragons. The situation has changed now, ofcourse, but if anyone (from the mainlands) can be expected to see the use of Dragons against the Others, its the Starks, who have got the most major connections with the Night Watch among all the noble houses. Three hundred years ago, we had the Last King in the North surrendering to the first Targ King. This time, we could well have the last Queen in the North surrendering to the first Queen of the Targs.

Secondly, around 20 years ago, Rhaegar's attempt to save the world (I assume there was some such motive for his running away with Lyanna), lead to a devastating war that was basically a Stark-Targ standoff. The war certainly made Westeros more vulnerable to attack from the Others.

This time we have Westeros already devastated, and any possible Stark-Targ standoff will only make it easier for the Others. If there were to be a possibility of a Stark-Targ standoff, and if it were to be averted in the last minute by an alliance between them to save the world from the Others, we would have a situation that rather neatly mirrors the events of 20 years ago.

Given these facts, I think Cersei will soon be challenged on two fronts. First, Sansa will become Queen in the North, and with Littlefinger's backing, will be a major threat to Cersei. As things are about to come to a head, Dany will attack from the south (Dorne, the last kingdom to join the Targs the last time round, will now be the first, again an inversion), and conquer KL (fulfilling the prophesy made to Cersei).

There will now be the threat of a major standoff between the North under Sansa (which has the least reason to support Dany, due to the Lyanna thing) and Dany in the South.

This may be resolved in several possible ways:

1) Just as war is about to begin, Jon sends word that the Others are attacking big time. (Incidentally, in the same chapter which mentions the War of the three Queens, Sansa remembers Jon fondly and thinks how sweet it would be to meet him. So the QitN and Jon should have a cordial relatgionship). The two parties will make a truce and turn their forces northward.

2)R+L=J will be revealed. The Northmen will realize Lyanna was not raped. Sansa will trick Littlefinger (and finish him off) and go in for a truce with Dany.

3)Bran surfaces in the right moment and Sansa has to step down by default. Bran, due to what he has learned from Coldhands and what he has observed beyond the Wall, will ally with Dany.

Ofcourse, there are a lot of finer details which cannot be predicted, and even these scenarios can be alters. Basically, my point is that a Stark Targ confrontation will almost happen, and will be prevented just in time to face the attack of the Wildlings.

Yes, it is actually not discussed too often on these boards, but I think what you are addressing is the point on which the fate of the series ultimately depends. Should Dany and the remaining Starks/Stark Loyalists go to war, it makes things much easier for the Others. If they work together, on the other hand, there is the danger of the series becoming too Tolkien-like, with all the likable folks allied against a monstrous evil. It seems to me the kind of thing that, as readers, we will always think we want - but if it were to happen, the remainder of the series would suck as a result. The moment the first Other goes up in dragon-flames (to wild cheers from Bran, Dany, and Tyrion), I may die of circulatory glurge.

Fortunately, I trust Martin not to let that happen.

[Wargonaut]

Yes, it is actually not discussed too often on these boards, but I think what you are addressing is the point on which the fate of the series ultimately depends. Should Dany and the remaining Starks/Stark Loyalists go to war, it makes things much easier for the Others. If they work together, on the other hand, there is the danger of the series becoming too Tolkien-like, with all the likable folks allied against a monstrous evil. It seems to me the kind of thing that, as readers, we will always think we want - but if it were to happen, the remainder of the series would suck as a result. The moment the first Other goes up in dragon-flames (to wild cheers from Bran, Dany, and Tyrion), I may die of circulatory glurge.

Fortunately, I trust Martin not to let that happen.

This makes sense. It seems like the "side" that is most fervently against the forces "Beyond the Wall" (the Others, etc.) is that of R'hollor (sp), his/her priests, and their supporters (the red priests and priestesses, etc.). They are the ones that fear the "Night" the most. It sets up a perfect dichotomy of light vs. dark, warm vs. cold. So, the question is: Where do the Starks fit into all of this? What about those who worship other gods not associated with this dichotomy? Does this mean that R'hollor is indeed the "good" god while whatever commands the Others is "evil?" Because some of the "red" rituals have seemed pretty evil to me. Perhaps there is no evil. Which god is the true God?

It seems like the Wall was built more for the protection against the Others than against the wildlings. If that is the case, then it seems like all of Westeros, whether Northerners, Dragons, or Southerners, has agreed to stand in league against what "evil" lurks to the North, regardless of their faith or loyalties. So...if R'hollor is the one most pitted against the Night, does that mean that everyone will eventually rally behind this "god" to defeat the evil beyond the Wall? Yet R'hollor seems to be the faith that is least accepted and most taboo in Westeros. Even those who have converted seem to be outcast as weirdos.

What about the Faceless god? Is that the god that represents the Night? Where do the Seven come into play?

Having said all that, what about this prophecy of "Ice and Fire" and "the Prince that was Promised?" That almost makes me think that whoever this person is, they have the power to rule over BOTH sides or ALL faiths. Maybe that person must come into power to command all the other faiths and the Others, etc. I have no clue.

No matter how you slice it, it is very hard to predict what will become of this "spiritual" war that is foreshadowed in the future. The Night Watch (and wildlings) and the red priests are the only ones who seem to understand it is coming. I can't tell if people will join league with the forces of "Night" or not. I can't tell if R'hollor will be the main opposition. But first, it seems we have a war for the kingdom itself brewing. Lots of questions to be answered before we know who will be on what side for the "ultimate" war.