Devices and Desires

[Bellis]

Thanks for the input, been lurking this thread myself, trying to decide whether it's worth buying the rest of this series. I read the first book (from the library, which often doesn't have more than the first volume in any SF series). I thought it was good but nothing mind-blowing. I might go and buy Abercrombie's series first, but I'm still deciding.

[Caligula_K]

Good. Not great. It has just enough to keep you going hoping to find a whiz bang of a finale, but in the end, it's a whimper not a bang.

I pretty much agree with this. A good trilogy, and in the second book it looks like it might approach greatness, but now that I've had time to think about it, I think that it ended pretty badly. Still worth reading, especially because there's not much else like it in fantasy at the moment.

Bellis: I'd make Abercrombie the priority.

[sparky]

I thought it was good but nothing mind-blowing. I might go and buy Abercrombie's series first, but I'm still deciding.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed Devices quite a bit more than The Blade Itself. I've only read the first in both trilogies, though...

[Bellis]

For what it's worth, I enjoyed Devices quite a bit more than The Blade Itself. I've only read the first in both trilogies, though...

Yes. I keep hearing this, but also that The First Law gets much better in the second and third books. I suspect that after reading The Blade Itself, I'll feel the same as you, and it won't make my decision much easier (as to which series to finish).

[Caligula_K]

Yes. I keep hearing this, but also that The First Law gets much better in the second and third books. I suspect that after reading The Blade Itself, I'll feel the same as you, and it won't make my decision much easier (as to which series to finish).

I agree that Parker's trilogy starts off stronger, but all in all, there's no question that The First Law wins out.

[sparky]

I agree that Parker's trilogy starts off stronger, but all in all, there's no question that The First Law wins out.

Actually, I'm glad to hear that, because Joe seems like a great guy. I'm certainly continuing on with the series; too many people have been kinda 'meh' on Blade and gone on to love the whole series, so...

[TakLoufer]

I have to say the Engineer Trilogy is one of the strangest works I've ever read. Many writers give their works a strong sense of moral ambiguity, with protagonists who wear a gray hats, but this doesn't apply to Parker; her works are not morally ambiguous, they're morally void. Many authors have anti-heroes and good characters that sometimes do bad things; with Parker there is no distinction between good or bad -- period. The moral relativism and determinism dwelled upon by authors such as Bakker are taken to the logical extreme in the Engineer Trilogy.

SPOILER: The Escapement

While they certainly don't approve of what Vaatzes has done, all of the characters see his actions as reasonable given his circumstances. Because he could pull off his whole political Rube Goldberg machine scheme (and, of course, most people could not), he had no choice in the matter. Because Vaatzes had the will and intellect, he had to commit acts that would lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, anyone else in his shoes and possessing the same abilities would have done the same thing.

The fact that someone might feel compelled to do something unspeakable, yet choose not to because they feel it is wrong, never seems to occur to her.

I know it's not wise to judge an author personally by their work, but I have a feeling she would have done what Vaatzes did. Though I personally wouldn't (Actually, I might seek outright destroy the city, or at least neutralize it, but more out of self-defense than anything. After all, no matter where Ziani went, the Mezentines would keep coming after him), the question of whether I'd be willing to commit genocide for someone I love is something I probably shouldn't answer truthfully. I have to admire Parker's balls for promoting atrocities, though. It seems pretty obvious that all the characters are in one way or another her personal mouthpieces (which is probably her biggest flaw as a writer), and none of them (with the possible exception of Psellus) condemn Ziani for what he did.

Which brings me to the end result of Vaatzes actions: can the ending be any more depressing? While reading, it never occurred to me that Mezentia wouldn't be annihilated (Parker loves cities being destroyed, I didn't think she could restrain herself). I also assumed most of the main characters would end up dead. Neither of those outcomes would have been as downbeat as what actually happened.

Ziani willfully chooses to overlook the fact that his wife hates him and tried to have killed just so he can live an illusion of reciprocated love, and Valens is married to the woman he loves, who just so happens to be an absurdly shallow, petty bitch. Miel Ducas ends up somewhat better, though I really think he should have married the daughter of Daurenja's ex-partner, as they seem to have more chemistry (why did she and her father disappear in this book?), and Psellus comes out okay, which is good since he's the closest thing the book has to a good guy.

Still, the ending was a downer. It would have actually been less depressing if Ducas killed Valens for Orsea's death and Veatriz killed Ducas (or something like that, I actually assumed this would happen), and if Vaatzes had given his wife (and "his" daughter, why not, this is Parker) the same treatment he gave Boioannes. At least that would have been shocking, horrifying, or at least emotionally involving. As it was, the ending was just . . . pathetic.

I don't know why, but both Veatriz and Ariessa made my skin crawl. I find I hate both of them in a way I never hated say, Cersei, and I can't really account for why. Veatriz is just so fickle and petty and self-absorbed, and Vaatzes wife seems somehow so inhuman (and she was always described as either bird-like or rat-like.) and cold that her unfaithfulness seemed somehow monstrous, but even still . . . as I said, I really can't explain why. Maybe because I like Vaazes and Valens so much, I don't know. Am I the only one who got this reaction?

And I actually felt sorry for poor Duranja. He was an awesome character and I really wished his cannon had at least worked before he died (though I knew it wouldn't, the foreshadowing wasn't exactly subtle).

If the series had a weakest link, it was Miel Ducas. Parker seemed to have no idea what do do with him, and in the end she did nothing. He meets the Potter and his daughter, and he seems to be building a relationship, but nothing comes of it. He makes a daring escape from Valen's camp with the one-eyed woman, and then promptly returns the next book with no repercussions. He entirely shrugs off the execution of Orsea, his Duke and best friend . . . what was the point? He was a component that might as well have been killed off at the Fall of Eremia.

Anyway, I really did like this series. I wonder if the Scavenger Trilogy is worth reading. I've heard bad things about it, but has anyone who enjoyed the Engineer Trilogy liked it?

[Muttering Bill]

SPOILER: The Escapement

Still, the ending was a downer. It would have actually been less depressing if Ducas killed Valens for Orsea's death and Veatriz killed Ducas (or something like that, I actually assumed this would happen), and if Vaatzes had given his wife (and "his" daughter, why not, this is Parker) the same treatment he gave Boioannes. At least that would have been shocking, horrifying, or at least emotionally involving. As it was, the ending was just . . . pathetic.

SPOILER: The Escapement

I was hoping for Ducas to challenge Valens as well. But in my version the Valens wins and Ducas gets the honorable death that he seemed to be searching for throughout Evil For Evil.

But she was definately lost on what to do with him. Though I did (mildly) enjoy the way she villainized him at the end - slaughtering the Cure Doce and having a great time at it.

And I disliked Daurenja (well realized, just a despicable man).

But I think that the end was her version of a "happy ending." Or as happy as can be expected in her bleak reality. I mean, nobody "lost." All 4 main characters survive, so that's good - too bad for Orsea though. And except for Psellus (who comes out of it the best), they all get to carry on with the illusion of hapiness with their wives - only needing to overlook the fact that the women don't love them in turn. All three kingdoms survive (despite that the majority of the poplulations of them are all dead), and Civitas Vadanis and Mezentia are still standing.

[Caligula_K]

I pretty much agree with everything you say, Takflouer, regarding the completely depressing ending, the ridiculous extent to which moral relativism is applied and Vaatzes' actions justified by just about every other character (and therefore, it seems, the author herself), and Ducas' complete uselessness in the last two books.