Devices and Desires

[TakLoufer]

I just finished The Belly of the Bow last night* and now have just started Devices and Desires (I'm still waiting for The Proof House to come in from Amazon). So far (80 pages in or so) it's definately far better than The Colours in the Steel and The Belly of the Bow. Parker seems to have really matured since the Fencer Trilogy.

Spoiler for The Belly of the Bow below.

*

SPOILER: The Belly of the Bow

I know Bardas killing his nephew was supposed to be shocking (and I suppose it was), but I couldn't help but laugh. I mean, Bardas goes to all this troube to get revenge on his brother by butchering his brother's son and turning him into a bow (shades of "Thyestes" and "Titus Andronicus"), but his brother doesn't even care! Sociopath Bardas is out sociopathed by his Uber-sociopath brother! Gorgas shrugging and saying "I can always make more sons, but I can't make more brothers" is just plain freaky. Still, the whole thing felt rather contrived. I can see Bardas doing it (especially after finding out Gorgas opened the gates in the first book), but then Parker obviously had him do it just to get a rise out of the reader.

[Muttering Bill]

When might we be permitted to post without worrying about spoilers btw? I suppose we need a new thread or a warning in the title? Anyway...

SPOILER: The Escapement

Ah, but we know (and so did he) that Valens would have been beaten by Daurenja whether he was fit or not because Daurenja used the circular guard thingy, which the training master in Mezentia was trying to explain to Psellus, which Valens had not even been taught because it was deemed too hard for him. It was that certain knowledge which made Valens give up the fight before his illness would have finished him off. He didn't know where to start with fighting Daurenja.

SPOILER: The Escapement

The circle guard may be better, but it does not necessarily guarantee victory. And Valens was supposd to be the best Vadani fencer. I'd say it was possible for Valens to have won, had he been at full health. I'm not convince that he would have lost without the injury. But, like you said, he gave up.

And I found that to be out of character.

[Rooster]

>Muttering Bill, Brahm_K

SPOILER: Eskeipment

I don't think anyone could have taken on Daurenja one-on-one, not even Valens in full health.

Veatriz fell in love with the Valens who'd even doom his country to save her, his number one priority. The one time he didn't put her ahead of everything else, he got owned by a monster. It is ridiculously petty, which just makes Veatriz fit in better with the crowd.

Brahm, I don't think Psellus ever said he admired Ziani for what he did, he admired the will behind the deed. Whether there's a recognizable difference there is up to you though. He did say, however, that it was horrible on a scale he couldn't even begin to imagine, but he'd have done it too if he had the mettle. Kind of plays into that whole no choice thingy Parker had going on.

Anyway, I really liked the series. I think Parker's grown more refined in her writing, I had some problems with Devices and Desires, but they fell in Evil for Evil and the Escapement. The opposite of my experience with Scavenger, wherein I liked the first best and the second and third less. The only major beef I had with the Escapement was

SPOILER: Eskeipment sequel

what has already been said, the Aram Chantat. How the alliance proposed to shepherd these people to the desert is beyond me, and why the Aram Chantat were inclined to take the trip where there was another alliance far more numerous ready to feast on some delicious blood is even more so. Well, a bit less, but you get the point.

[Sheep the Evicted]

I just don't get you people, especially Muttering Bill. From what i have read i agree with you word for word ; it was petty and out of character. And i'm not even so angry about the pettiness. At least with Abercrombie the characters darknesses was always there lurking in the shadows, waiting between the lines but here the characters seem to go spontaneously schitzo just so that Parker can get a rise out of the reader. Just so that everything can conform to her notion that nothing good ever comes out of love.

I also agree with how dissapointing the whole Ducas plot line was; there was no redemption no.... anything really, his plot was a meandering waste and i gave up on him half way through book three when i should have given up half way through book two. Vaatzes really did kill him at the fall of Ermeia.

Maybe i just feel this way because i had a really long while to stew over it and finally decide that i hate the series.

[Isis]

Well, I like the series such a lot because the main theme is totally convincing to me. Maybe it doesn't ring as true to you because you don't have the personal experience that would make it seem realistic - obviously I have no idea about that. Or maybe that's nothing to do with it and it just isn't your cup of tea?

I don't really see that much in the way of comparison with Abercrombie either. They're different sorts of writers, I think. I like them both, but Parker's trilogy has impressed me more. I can see how it could be an acquired taste though, or even so different that people just won't like it no matter how hard they try.

SPOILER: The Escapement

And with the fencing duel, I think it served to illustrate that Daurenja was capable of being an expert at something he'd just picked up for a little while to pass the time. Valens was a great fencer because he'd practised all the time since he was a child. That's how much of a gulf there is between the two of them and I don't think Valens could ever have beaten Daurenja if Daurenja didn't want him to.

[Sheep the Evicted]

I didn't express myself well enough. What i meant was we are all saying the same thing; the characters where out of sync at the end and whole "love is bad" was beaten into every fibre of the story and finally how all that evil accomplished...nothing.

I say that makes a shitty series. The rest of you seem to say it doesn't.

[Isis]

I'm not saying that the characters were out of sync at the end.

I'm saying I'm fine with love being the cause of mass destruction and horror. I think that's entirely possible. And anyone who finds that unrealistic must never have been in love. I don't think this concept makes it a shitty series, but I do think we're down to personal taste here rather than something the author has done. I think it's more about how grim/realistic you like your fiction to be. Some people do want a happy ending. They don't want realism in fantasy fiction. And if a person feels that way, then they should probably just skip this series completely.

[Muttering Bill]

I just don't get you people, especially Muttering Bill.

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you don't get. Is that that we all, for the most part, enjoyed the series? Or is there something specific that I said which didn't make any sense (entirely possible).

If it's the former, then I agree with Isis; it's an acquired taste. The theme was convincing for me, but I can certainly see where others might not agree with it. The characters, although at times a little under-emotional, all had aspects that mirrored parts of my own personality. The writing was a little dense, but I think that the level of detail only helped to support the theme in the end - it being a story about the nature of love, it served to illustrate the chracters love for the theories and processes being described, as well as the authors love for her world.

I also don't see the comparrison to Abercrombie. I've said all along that I'd liken Parker to, if anybody, Bakker.

SPOILER: The Escapement

And with the fencing duel, I think it served to illustrate that Daurenja was capable of being an expert at something he'd just picked up for a little while to pass the time. Valens was a great fencer because he'd practised all the time since he was a child. That's how much of a gulf there is between the two of them and I don't think Valens could ever have beaten Daurenja if Daurenja didn't want him to.

SPOILER: The Escapement

But Daurenja didn't simply pick up fencing in his spare time - he was a soldier, and no doubt had extensive training. Ok, so probably no more than a couple of years compared to Valens's lifelong study - but still more than a casual hobby. (Now if Psellus beat Valens, that would be something else entirely). Valens had to lose the duel in order for the story to end the way it did. All I'm saying is that realistically (which admittedly means nothing to the story) Daurenja using the circle guard would not necessarily mean that he would win. Especially where Valens had had so much more training/practice. At full health Valens would have at least had a reasonable chance at winning.

You also mentioned when Psellus was training at fencing, how he was told that the circle guard is superior than straight guard. But... didn't the instructor also claim that the circle guard was considered the Vadani method, and that the straight guard was used by the Eremian's? How then does Valen's not know the cricle guard? If he is Vadani and trained under the Vadani school, and that's what they use, then that's what he would learn. I can't concieve of Valen's father allowing him to learn the Eremian method of fencing. Because it was Eremian for one, and they were, at the point when Valens began his training, the enemy. Also because it was easier, considering the way he pushed Valens in everything else, I shouldn't think he'd let the boy off lightly here.

A bout of inconsinstency, or did I completely misread that part?

SPOILER: Evil for Evil/The Escapement

Was anybody else totally disappointed that Miel did nothing about Valens killing Orsea. I was looking forward to an epic Miel vs. Valens duel - with Miel losing, and thus finding a death honorable enough for the Ducas. But instead we get Miel becoming Valens's lapdog, and not even any thought over his supposed best friends murder.

[Muttering Bill]

I didn't express myself well enough. What i meant was we are all saying the same thing; the characters where out of sync at the end and whole "love is bad" was beaten into every fibre of the story and finally how all that evil accomplished...nothing.

I say that makes a shitty series. The rest of you seem to say it doesn't.

Sure the characters had a few inconsistencies - but a lot authors will mistep a few times in a story. It's not that big a deal, taking into account how much I liked everything else. I can forgive her a couple of mistakes.

Otherwise - what Isis said.

[Isis]

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as the books are at home (where I currently have no internet) and I am at work. I will go back and re-read the fencing part though, as it's clearly worth another look - I forgotten the part about one guard being Eremian and one Vadani.

SPOILER: The Ecapement

Psellus was using fencing as a metaphor for war, which gave him an excuse for repeating these things to himself - so that they stuck in the reader's mind. I'm not sure why his instructor even bothered to mention the circle guard to him at all (since Psellus couldn't master the first thing about fencing) except as preparation (for us) so that when we see it in action we think, hmm, that's bad then...and then Valens confirms for us that there is NOTHING he can do to fight against it - mainly because he was never taught it, it was considered too difficult.

What I took from that scene was a) Valens was too sick to beat Daurenja at that moment, and Daurenja was a superior fencer to him, competent in a technique considered too advanced for Valens to even learn how to do. The only way for him to win was NOT to fight. Just like Veatriz wanted him to do (but surely for all the wrong reasons).

But what has fencing got to do with being a soldier though? Surely not that much. I'm not saying Daurenja learned it all in a week or a month. My point is Valens became a great fencer because he worked hard at it for a long time. Daurenja was good at it because he was good at everything he ever turned his hand to, not just good, but better than most people. He was a freak.

I guess that Miel's journey was about living his own life rather than doing what other people want. And screw Orsea anyway! Miel didn't owe him anything. So yeah, I guess that's sort of a happy ending for him, he gets some independence at last. Plus he ends up in a better situation than Valens in the end. This could only have worked out better if Veatriz had done the full circuit and finally worked out that she should give Miel a try, only for him to tell the spoiled bint to get lost.

[Sheep the Evicted]

I like realism as much as the next person. I just find it unrealistic that anyone can have such a ruthless will for something they know doesn't exist. Thats why i think the plot fell victim to the themes. And Bill the whole trilogy was carried on the shoulders of those characters and so when their thoughts and emotions are betrayed for the convenience of the authors themes thats a definite let down for me.

[Muttering Bill]

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as the books are at home (where I currently have no internet) and I am at work. I will go back and re-read the fencing part though, as it's clearly worth another look - I forgotten the part about one guard being Eremian and one Vadani.

I don't have them with my either, I just remember thinking that was a little odd as I read through. I could be mistaken. But as far as I recall, Valens always fought in a circular pattern - the battle against the Cure Hardy in Devices, the horseback fight in Evil.

SPOILER: The Ecapement

But what has fencing got to do with being a soldier though? Surely not that much. I'm not saying Daurenja learned it all in a week or a month. My point is Valens became a great fencer because he worked hard at it for a long time. Daurenja was good at it because he was good at everything he ever turned his hand to, not just good, but better than most people. He was a freak.

SPOILER: spoiler

Except that Valens had also spend time training with the palace guards (as explained in Chapter one of DaD) which was a much more practical style of fighting than fencing. Surely he could have figured something out.

In any case, a fighting style is only as good as the man who's using it. Yeah, Daurenja was a beast though. And a real fight would between the two of them could very well have seen Valens dead instead of simply disgraced. But that would hardly serve.

And now that I think on it, that wasn't exactly the first time Valens chickened out of a fight. He froze up and just lay on the ground after taking a hit in the Cure Hardy battle in Devices. Then he tried to run away after the carravan assault in Evil. Maybe him giving up against Daurenja wasn't so out of character afterall.

SPOILER: The Ecapement

I guess that Miel's journey was about living his own life rather than doing what other people want. And screw Orsea anyway! Miel didn't owe him anything. So yeah, I guess that's sort of a happy ending for him, he gets some independence at last. Plus he ends up in a better situation than Valens in the end. This could only have worked out better if Veatriz had done the full circuit and finally worked out that she should give Miel a try, only for him to tell the spoiled bint to get lost.

SPOILER: The Escapement

Was Miel really that much better off? He got stuck with an office that he spend a book and a half trying to get away from, and a woman that he doesn't even really like. Or I never got the sense that he did anyway. (Whatever happend to Framain's daughter anyway?)

Valens at least still loves Veatriz at the end, regardless whether or not she reciprocates it. Which puts him on about even ground with Ziani, and Miel coming up as the big loser.

I like realism as much as the next person. I just find it unrealistic that anyone can have such a ruthless will for something they know doesn't exist. Thats why i think the plot fell victim to the themes. And Bill the whole trilogy was carried on the shoulders of those characters and so when their thoughts and emotions are betrayed for the convenience of the authors themes thats a definite let down for me.

But as much as I complain, I can also make excuses for her - if, overall, the story is enjoyable.

Veatriz was a miserable wretch from the beginning. Valens; no, I wasn't terribly happy with what she did with him. The reasoning behind his change fell a little flat, but I think it's apparent that that was something she had intended from the beginning. Miel got pretty boring for a while, but I was ok with where he ended up. So Psellus was the only one that she really got right... whatever.

I still her credit for trying, even if it didn't always work out. There are plenty of authors who do a lot worse at character developement than Parker.

Perhaps it comes down to how forgiving we can be over an authors errors. I guess I'm just easier to please.

[TakLoufer]

I just finished Devices and Desires. Parker has really matured as a writer, though the characters are still passionless. It's interesting how you can see certain aspects of her (I personally have doubts that Parker is a she, but then maybe I'm just being sexist) previous work bleeding through. Some of this is good (her recycling of the idea of doomed cities under siege and her fixation on the inner working of politics and bureaucracy, for example), but some of it comes across as a deficiency or hang up. For example:

1) Everyone seem oddly agnostic. Not only the characters, but the societies themselves don't adhere to any gods or supernatural beliefs. I honestly can't think of any real life medieval culture where there is no predominant religion. Science and the scientific method doesn't exist yet to replace supernaturalism, so it makes no sense for such a pre-industial society to be so secular. I mean, even if the educated nobility consider themselves above that sort of thing, what about the peasents? It seems unrealistic.

The same was true of the Fencer Trilogy, so this seems to be a preference of Parker (I'm making the assumption that she is an atheist/agnostic, and thus projects this onto her works). Even still, the lack of religion makes her world seem unnaturally passionless.

2) Speaking of passion, the lack of strong emotion. This has been mentioned before, but I have to stress I really find this weird in her work. It's not as bad here as it was in the Fencer Trilogy, but, for example:

SPOILER: Devices and Desires

When Viatriz (she's even recycling names from the Fencer Trilogy!) is escaping with Vaatzes out of the doomed city, she's running across tons of dead bodies, many of them women and children. Viatriz, with her relatively sheltered life, has probably never even seen a dead body before, much less the scene of a city-wide massacre. Curiously enough, she has no reaction to this other than a vague concern for her own safety and whether Oreas is alright or not. I don't think I can put it down as merely shock; it's just that the characters don't care.

3) Characters that do things that don't make sense. Bardas is guilty of this a little (see Belly of the Bow), but Vaatzes . . . wow.

SPOILER: Devices and Desires

Okay, so he want's to be reunited with his family (who, curiously enough, he never seems to think about or have any memories of), so instead of conspiring to smuggle them out of the city, he starts a war, conspires to lose it, and now is sneaking off with Valens to start another war. I have a feeling that the whole "reunite with my family" angle is just rationalization on his part. He really just wants to get revenge on the Mezatines . . . but if he wanted to do that, why sabatoge the war with them? The only real effect he's caused on the Mezatines is for them to waste lots of money on mercenaries. I assume it'll make sense in the next two books, however. So far it seems like his goal is just to cause mischief.

4) No one seems to have any sexual desire. It may be referred to off-hand (such as Miel's past philandering, or Viatriz one night stand with Gorgas in Colours in the Steel), but it never has any effect on the characters. Compare this with Martin or Bakker (or most other authors, for that matter), and you'll see what I mean.

That being said, I did really like this book (though the above past makes it seem like I don't) and am about to start Evil for Evil right now.

[Muttering Bill]

2) Speaking of passion, the lack of strong emotion. This has been mentioned before, but I have to stress I really find this weird in her work. It's not as bad here as it was in the Fencer Trilogy...

It gets a little better in Evil for Evil. As I recall, Valens spends the last hundred or so pages pissed off. Vaatzes and Framain (new character) each have one passioned outburst. The Escapement will go right back to emotionless characters though.

As to Vaatzes motives, it's going to get a lot more confusing. At times he seems like he wants only to be re-united with his family, other times like he wants revenge on the Mezentines, and still others like he's trying to win an invite home by helping the Mezentines wipe out the Eremians/Vadani. She will clear it up at the end - it's not the tightest explanation, but it's enough.

[Relic]

So what's the verdict on this series?

[TakLoufer]

So what's the verdict on this series?

Still reading it. I'll state my opinion when I'm done.

[Jaxom 1974]

So what's the verdict on this series?

Good. Not great. It has just enough to keep you going hoping to find a whiz bang of a finale, but in the end, it's a whimper not a bang.

[Relic]

Good. Not great. It has just enough to keep you going hoping to find a whiz bang of a finale, but in the end, it's a whimper not a bang.

well...thanks for blowing the ending there Jax.

[Jaxom 1974]

Hey, my opinion. And it's all over this thread in one form or another. And, hey, if it saves you some dough on a purchase, what the heck, eh?

[Muttering Bill]

Good. Not great. It has just enough to keep you going hoping to find a whiz bang of a finale, but in the end, it's a whimper not a bang.

Personally, I thought it was great. It had it's flaws including: emotionless characters, massive amounts of infodumping, and (as mentioned above) a lackluster ending. Despite that though, I found it a worthwhile read. No, It's not perfect by any stretch, but you could do a lot worse.

I remain that, if you liked Bakker, then there's a fair chance you'll like this as well.