Arya's Purpose?

[Lady Blackfish]

Poobs: Apologies if that seemed willfully elitist or something. A trope is something that is common in literature (though people use it with movies and TV also), a pattern or a theme. Sometimes people interchange the term, at least in ASOIAF talk, with the word "archetype" if the trope is concerning a character (you can also have setting or plot tropes -- Wiki suggests "the prison break" or "the haunted castle").

I'd say the sympathetic unruly tomboy sister is a common pattern in literature. It's common to compare and play female "types" against each other to pick one female type as worthy of our sympathies. In modern incarnations it's often a prissy/girly "in-crowd" type vs a rough'n'ready/tomboyish "outcrowd" type, I swear it's part of 70% of every teen movie to come out of the 80's. But you can find them all over literature too, Meg and Jo March from 1868's Little Women as a fairly benign example (benign as in, the necessity to dislike Meg wasn't very strong there). If you've seen Mean Girls, that movie would not be able to exist without this trope to play with and subvert.

A trope isn't inherently valueless (I'll probably watch the crappiest prison break movie ever made because I just love that trope). But IMO it's unlikely that GRRM intended for Arya to start out with zero sympathy and build to her peak sympathy at the stage of the plot we're at now. It's more likely that you're "supposed" to love Arya and then slowly start to watch her with a little horror, both at herself and at yourself for wanting at least in part for her to get her bloody justice. Her early story is stacked to the brim with sympathizing moments, her insecurities at being a lady, her closeness with Jon, etc.

But if it's not integral to AvengingAryaFan's point, that's cool with me and I'll drop it.

[siyrean]

i think GRRM is having a great time screwing with peoples stereotyped perseptions. we meet Sansa, we imediatly don't like her and see her as that prissy popular girl in school that everyone but you dispised. he gives readers what we all secretly want, for the world to knock some sense into her, for her views to be crushed and she get a headshot of reality. we get it, and we're horrified by what's she's put through... well some of us are, i still see people saying she should've been legally raped by Tyrion.

then we get Arya, the modern girl in a sexist society. we love her, we love that's she refuses to conform to social convention... and we see her take that farther and farther, and now, well she a little scary.

[the silent speaker]

I must be missing something, so would you be so kind as to explain the facts that led to your obvious conclusion?

Well, I won't claim it as my conclusion, but I have no way of guessing who noted it first. Basically, our mystery assailant was wearing pink, whihch is Bolton color and fairly unusual in men's clothing; and he sent "Jaime Lannister's regards," when Roose and Jaime had the earlier exchange "Give my regards to your father," "Only if you give mine to Robb Stark."

[Errant Bard]

<sigh> just can't keep that tone out eh Dom? I suppose I do it too at times.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across aggressively, it was a genuine question. I just forgot to put a smiley, I guess.

For the rest, as I said, rehab is possible, but difficult and costly, and the trauma never truly fade, if you read the passages on uncontrollable anger and on the childs who join armed groups anyway. Certainly the documents are hopeful, it's to be expected from the UNICEF, they would not tell you that what they're doing is hopeless, would they?

@Avengingaryafan: The Sansa bit was only to respond to Lady Blackfish, it had nothing to do with any argument of yours, and indeed if was talking about archetypes and the point of view of the reader. It's fact that sansa is reviled at first by most reader, you just have to read the forum to know.

About Roose Bolton:

[Roose] Bolton meant to follow him. "The Trident is in flood," he told Jaime. "Even at the ruby ford, the crossing will be difficult. You will give my warm regards to your father?"

"So long as you give mine to Robb Stark."

"That I shall."

[...]

Another man, still wetter, stood before the fire in a pale pink cloak trimmed with white fur.

"Lord Bolton," she said.

[...]

[at the red wedding]Roose Bolton murmured some words too soft to hear and went off in search of a privy.

[...]

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

[Happy Ent]

I'd have thought that the fierce, independent rule-breaker with the good heart was obviously more sympathetic, and better, than the rule-abiding beauty who has shown moral weaknesses. But as obvious as this seems to me, many people are saying the rule-breaker has become unsympathetic and/or sociopathic.

There's no contradiction.

We all think that the independent rule-breaker is more sympathetic. That's clearly what we are supposed to feel in the beginning.

That sentiment does not contradict the observation that the rule-breaker is a sociopath. (All sociopaths are rule-breakers. Rule-breaking is one of the aspects of sociopathy.) And it certainly doesn't contradict the possibility of this originally likeable character becoming unsympathetic over the course of a few 1000 pages, just like the originally detestable Sansa becoming more sympathetic.

[AvengingAryaFan]

There's no contradiction.

We all think that the independent rule-breaker is more sympathetic. That's clearly what we are supposed to feel in the beginning.

That sentiment does not contradict the observation that the rule-breaker is a sociopath. (All sociopaths are rule-breakers. Rule-breaking is one of the aspects of sociopathy.) And it certainly doesn't contradict the possibility of this originally likeable character becoming unsympathetic over the course of a few 1000 pages, just like the originally detestable Sansa becoming more sympathetic.

I maintain that GRRM is showing how rough and tough Arya can be without being a sociopath, and that the persistent evidence of her sense of honor, decency and justice is supposed to keep her in the good-guy, non-sociopath camp. But sociopath is just a word, after all, and clearly means different things to different people. Some have said "She's a sociopath, but she's basically good and I like her." Clearly a different meaning of sociopath than the one I have internalized.

I find it amusing that Dom wishes that Arya would turn truly bad, if only for the literary novelty of it.

Because the situation here is that GRRM has merely stretched the independent, rulebreaker tomboy trope a little far ... entirely appropriately, given the level of violence in Arya's Westeros ... yet it seems to be discomfiting him already. Heck, she hasn't even killed anybody without pretty danged good justification, and GRRM provides abundant evidence that she retains her "good heart".

You want trope-busting? Mister, you can't handle trope-busting!

(Sorry, my winking smiley faces don't work) On a different note: everybody seems to know more than I do about Roose Bolton, Jaime, and the Red Wedding. It's off topic, but has there been any conclusion that Jaime's comments to Roose were other than innocent, i.e., that Jaime was in fact privy to the Red Wedding plans? If nobody wants to go off-topic to explain, I'll go dredge it up myself.

[Happy Ent]

It's off topic, but has there been any conclusion that Jaime's comments to Roose were other than innocent, i.e., that Jaime was in fact privy to the Red Wedding plans?

Most of us think it's an internal joke of Roose's and Jaime had nothing to do with it. It's just Roose being sarcastic and GRRM purposefully feeding misleading information to his characters.

[Insert Edit]

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across aggressively, it was a genuine question. I just forgot to put a smiley, I guess.

For the rest, as I said, rehab is possible, but difficult and costly, and the trauma never truly fade, if you read the passages on uncontrollable anger and on the childs who join armed groups anyway. Certainly the documents are hopeful, it's to be expected from the UNICEF, they would not tell you that what they're doing is hopeless, would they?

Right, so one CAN go from being a normal child to a sociopathic killer, back to being a productive member of society, just not cheaply or easily.

And I did read those sections btw, thus the part in my post about positives in all that negativity.

And that's about the only place we really differ I think. I wouldn't want Arya to babysit my daughter. She's a disturbed young woman. I don't think the sun shines out of her buttocks. All I've really been trying to disagree about is:

1. She was forged into what she is by circumstance - just like these child soldiers are. I suppose some may have been inherently evil or sociopathic before being indoctrinated - but most would not be. That's not an excuse for her behavior - just a fact.

2. As unlikely or costly as it might be, there is hope for redemption for her character.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Right, so one CAN go from being a normal child to a sociopathic killer, back to being a productive member of society, just not cheaply or easily.

And I did read those sections btw, thus the part in my post about positives in all that negativity.

And that's about the only place we really differ I think. I wouldn't want Arya to babysit my daughter. She's a disturbed young woman. I don't think the sun shines out of her buttocks. All I've really been trying to disagree about is:

1. She was forged into what she is by circumstance - just like these child soldiers are. I suppose some may have been inherently evil or sociopathic before being indoctrinated - but most would not be. That's not an excuse for her behavior - just a fact.

2. As unlikely or costly as it might be, there is hope for redemption for her character.

Arya's not a child soldier that needs redemption. She's a child soldier that never lost her decency and humanity in the first place.

I've demonstrated her continued decency - heck, YOU demonstrated her continued decency, if ironically by misposting about her help for Sam vs. the bravos. (Well, GRRM demonstrated it, but we reported some of his examples)

But you can't seem to get over the fact that killing is just killing, and that Arya can be inured to it, like a soldier would naturally be, without going psycho. And you can't keep in mind all the evidence GRRM provides that she not only passionately wants justice, but also is courageously compassionate. Ya know, Gendry wasn't the only one telling her not to give those Lannister soldiers water. And the bravos' blades were bigger than hers. Just two examples of compassion in the face of risk, or at least discouragement. How you can say she's a sociopath, I just don't know. Weird dictionary, I guess. Give me a "sociopath" like that for a pal any day.

I'd love to have (had) her babysit my daughter ... far better than a helpless airhead. Woe unto the would-be kidnapper going after a charge of Arya's!

[Insert Edit]

Arya's not a child soldier that needs redemption. She's a child soldier that never lost her decency and humanity in the first place.

I've demonstrated her continued decency - heck, YOU demonstrated her continued decency, if ironically by misposting about her help for Sam vs. the bravos.

But you can't seem to get over the fact that killing is just killing, and that Arya can be inured to it, like a soldier would naturally be, without going psycho. And you can't keep in mind all the evidence GRRM provides that she not only passionately wants justice, but also is courageously compassionate. Ya know, Gendry wasn't the only one telling her not to give those Lannister soldiers water. And the bravos' blades were bigger than hers. Just two examples of compassion in the face of risk, or at least discouragment. How you can say she's a sociopath, I just don't know. Weird dictionary, I guess. Give me a "sociopath" like that for a pal any day.

I'd love to have (had) her babysit my daughter ... far better than a helpless airhead. Woe be unto a would-be kidnapper in that case!

I'm just trying to meet the other side halfway... it's the Libran in me I guess.

The other side is arguing that societal conventions define what a sociopath is (I think). We can argue from now until the end of time that in a time of war, societal conventions are abandoned. We can probably also argue until the end of time about some higher plane of morality.

As for her babysitting, well that's with the benefit of having glimpsed into her head via George.

If I need my daughter babysat in a warzone, then yeah, Arya would be perfect. But I'll settle for my roomate's step-daughter - she's a nice kid - sweet, attentive, and (far as I know) hasn't ever seen her father beheaded or had to stick someone with the pointy end.

[Errant Bard]

I find it amusing that Dom wishes that Arya would turn truly bad, if only for the literary novelty of it.

Because the situation here is that GRRM has merely stretched the independent, rulebreaker tomboy trope a little far ... entirely appropriately, given the level of violence in Arya's Westeros ... yet it seems to be discomfiting him already. Heck, she hasn't even killed anybody without pretty danged good justification, and GRRM provides abundant evidence that she retains her "good heart".

You want trope-busting? Mister, you can't handle trope-busting!

I fail to see how I would discomfited by an interpretation only you hold in this thread. What I am discomfited with, however, is your arrogance in putting words in my mouth, making your interpretation fact and basing yourself on that to try to offend me. Screw you. (sorry, my smileys are broken too)

Also yes, literary novelty is one of the reason I wish Arya would not revert to the usual archetype. It's pretty minor compared to what I perceive is internal consistency for the character to go down this way, but I'm glad to know it amuses you nevertheless.

Also, you haven't "demonstrated" anything, you've put forward one interpretation for some lines that for most other people mean something else. Yeah we got your point of view, but exposing it doesn't make it fact, or even probable.

@insert-edit:

Of course one can be normal after that experience, this isn't some sort of all or nothing switch. I never said otherwise. If you read my older posts, you will also notice that I argued Arya was on a slippery slope, not that she was doomed. Nevertheless, odds are not in her favor.

I don't know about redemption, I'm not a theist, but she certainly could have a shot at a normal happy life after she quit the army FM, if there were people to help her, a community to welcome her, and if she quit in the first place.

[a_homeless_harpy]

Right, so one CAN go from being a normal child to a sociopathic killer, back to being a productive member of society, just not cheaply or easily.

And I did read those sections btw, thus the part in my post about positives in all that negativity.

And that's about the only place we really differ I think. I wouldn't want Arya to babysit my daughter. She's a disturbed young woman. I don't think the sun shines out of her buttocks. All I've really been trying to disagree about is:

1. She was forged into what she is by circumstance - just like these child soldiers are. I suppose some may have been inherently evil or sociopathic before being indoctrinated - but most would not be. That's not an excuse for her behavior - just a fact.

2. As unlikely or costly as it might be, there is hope for redemption for her character.

Here I totally agree.

If you want to find excuses for Arya's behaviour, the best thing to be said is that she is too young to control herself and if she acted otherwise she would have been killed/raped/turned to Cersei long time ago. It doesn't make her less violent or less disturbed but it does make us more sympathetic toward her (and I think it was a deliberate move from the side of the author). It is even more pronounced when Arya is compared to her aunt, Lyanna. All in all - I hope Arya will be expelled from the FM org. due to her temper and she will be able to turn over a new leaf. It might be easier in a fantasy book than in real life.

I'd love to have (had) her babysit my daughter ... far better than a helpless airhead. Woe unto the would-be kidnapper going after a charge of Arya's!

Woe unto your daughter if she happens to cross her babysitter too and Arya has amazingly short fuse!

[Insert Edit]

The thread is getting testy...

[a_homeless_harpy]

Sorry, EB for repeating your ideas, it seems that we posted simultaneously.

The thread is getting testy... thumbsup.gif

sure, better that than a mutual agreement, which is boring.

[Insert Edit]

I just wish I didn't have to wait another five years for me to be proved right!!

[Maia]

There's no contradiction.

We all think that the independent rule-breaker is more sympathetic. That's clearly what we are supposed to feel in the beginning.

That sentiment does not contradict the observation that the rule-breaker is a sociopath.

IMHO, Arya is scarcely more of a rule-breaker and a sociopath than Jon is. Jon also had problems with incompetent authority and expressed said problems in a violent manner . He made his first kill far more easily and with less regrets than his little sister. He tried to run away and displayed ill-tempered rebelliousness on numerous occasions and tried to kill a man who offended him.

Arya has poor work ethic because she can't sew? Huh? Just because she resisted doing things that she is bad at and resented being forced into a mold she was unsuited for doesn't mean that she has a poor work ethic. She didn't mind learning about managing the household, she followed all Syrio's instructions, she obeyed Ned once he explained his reasons to her and is currently working hard at her training. Or would you say that Sam is a sociopath too? Clearly he had an awful "work ethic" where learning to fight was concerned...

Arya is far more compassionate and empathetic than the older children who went through the ordeals together with her. From the beginning and up to "now" she continued to be willing to take great risks, in order to save the helpless.

Finally, Arya has been doggedly looking for a social structure or a group to to belong to ever since she was torn from her original one. She was unsuccessful through no fault of her own.

IMHO, you have a fixed idea about what Arya would become and try to fit what she is in that perspective. But "it doesn't answer", at least so far...

About Arya versus Sansa - I love a tomboy, but in the Mycah affair my sympathies were on Sansa's side. Arya was just so incredibly willful and stupid in this instance. Unlike Sansa, she saw the Lannisters and Joffrey for what they were from the beginning and she still acted to antagonize them. Then Ned compounded the disaster by not going to Robert immediately after he heard the true story from Sansa - which would have been the only chance to save Mycah.

And then he called up Sansa to testify against her betrothed (Mycah was already dead at that point) - duh! Did he even realize what he was requiring from her?! There are reasons why spouses can't testify against each other in law. And while they weren't yet married - Sansa herself would have never had the power to break up the betrothal. So, it had a potential of turning things permanently sour for her. Sansa, understandably tried to abstain from taking sides and Arya, self-centered to the hilt, attacked her sister, which of course only supported Joff's version of events.

Anyway, the thing is that there are loads of people who did much worse than Arya, in the past or during the wars, some of them POVs, yet nobody considers them lost cases or even particularly evil. In fact, people like Sandor or even Bronn (who really _is_ a remorseless payed killer) are considered "bad-ass" and "cool".

It seems to me that people expect that since Arya is so young she is bound to get much worse. But I don't see it so far. She seems to have reached a typical "warrior" mindset and stopped there, while remaining more compassionate than most. Let's not forget that there are a lot of boys only a little older than Arya, who also participated in the war and it's atrocities. Are all of them doomed to become menaces to Westerosi society? Certainly not. Arya may seem problematic in the view of our contemporary values, but in the violent societies she lives in, only her gender would be a hurdle.

To bring up a point of comparison - I am currently reading "Alatriste" novels and... well. Most of the important characters would seem to be murderous sociopaths by our measure, but within the frame of their society they are actually honorable people. I see future Arya a lot like the Captain himself. Can she become truly evil? Sure. But so can a lot of other characters. Cat already has IMHO. Stannis is on the way there - and at least some among the readers see him as sympathetic.

In fact a female "who doesn't know her place" becoming evil is hardly novel, but on the contrary quite traditional. Real novelty would be if one of the "boy-hero" archetypes became evil - like Jon or Bran. Not that I expect that it would happen. When there was a hope of time-line moving ahead a decade or so during the books, I used to think that Rickon would become the evil Stark - _there_ is your deeply disturbed child, if you ask me . But I guess I'll have content myself with Gendry . Speaking of a person lacking empathy, etc.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Dom, that's just sad. C'mon -- trope-busting?

[AvengingAryaFan]

...

About Arya versus Sansa - I love a tomboy, but in the Mycah affair my sympathies were on Sansa's side. Arya was just so incredibly willful and stupid in this instance. Unlike Sansa, she saw the Lannisters and Joffrey for what they were from the beginning and she still acted to antagonize them. Then Ned compounded the disaster by not going to Robert immediately after he heard the true story from Sansa - which would have been the only chance to save Mycah.

And then he called up Sansa to testify against her betrothed (Mycah was already dead at that point) - duh! Did he even realize what he was requiring from her?! There are reasons why spouses can't testify against each other in law. And while they weren't yet married - Sansa herself would have never had the power to break up the betrothal. So, it had a potential of turning things permanently sour for her. Sansa, understandably tried to abstain from taking sides and Arya, self-centered to the hilt, attacked her sister, which of course only supported Joff's version of events.

...

Is Arya self-centered to the hilt, or simply impulsive (like a 9-year old) and intolerant of dissembling? Arya, in Sansa's place, would have told the truth. Of course, Arya wouldn't have been in Sansa's place, because she could see what Joffrey was and wouldn't have put up with him.

Sansa's public falsehood was like Arya's killing of the stablehand. The circumstances were pretty tense (though Sansa's life wasn't at risk), and their actions at those times made their later, similar actions that much easier. Sansa eventually betrayed her father just so she could keep her dream alive and stay in King's Landing. I can't share your excusing of Sansa. She's the oldest Stark sister, and should have been more honorable despite the trying circumstances. The Starks aren't just commoners - they're the highest nobility in the north.

Furthermore, I submit that the execution of her wolf is the symbolic confirmation that Sansa let her Stark spirit die that day, in favor of trying to save her glorious vision of King Joffrey and Queen Sansa ... a wish she'd later want to avoid with all her heart.

I'd like to review the section you refer to, because I don't recall that there was an opportunity for petitioning Robert before Mycah was slaughtered, but I loaned my AGOT to a friend. You mean Joffrey ordered that wholly gratuitous murder the next day? I thought it was on the spot.

Oh, wait - it wasn't murder. IIRC, Joffrey had the legal right to do it. As such, according to some, it was a legal execution, not sociopathic or evil.

[SkyPirate]

Furthermore, I submit that the execution of her wolf is the symbolic confirmation that Sansa let her Stark spirit die that day, in favor of trying to save her glorious vision of King Joffrey and Queen Sansa ... a wish she'd later want to avoid with all her heart.

Yes, that Sansa, not a bit of Stark in her.

Oh, wait:

“Ser Sweetrobin,†Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

The Broken Tower was easier still. They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they'd raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face. Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar. "That was unchivalrously done, my lady."

 

"As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home."

 

She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

[Maia]

Is Arya self-centered to the hilt, or simply impulsive (like a 9-year old) and intolerant of dissembling? Arya, in Sansa's place, would have told the truth.

Arya was quite capable of dissembling herself. Would she have told the truth if it was somebody whom she liked and intended to spend her future with who had been accused? I dunno.

Of course, Arya wouldn't have been in Sansa's place, because she could see what Joffrey was and wouldn't have put up with him..

And because she saw Joffrey for what he was, it was particularly stupid to act as she did. Arya may have been only 9, but she knew that in her world some people had vastly more power than others and that Joffrey was pretty much near the top. She may not have been able to foresee the actual murder of Mycah, but Joff getting back at him and his family in some very unpleasant manner should have been well within her mental powers and experience to envision.

As to Arya not "putting up" with a betrothed she disliked - would even somebody as understanding as Ned allow it? Remember, it wasn't Sansa's idea to marry Joff and it wasn't in her power to dissolve the engagement. She was trying to make the best of it, according to what she has been taught, as was only reasonable.

The circumstances were pretty tense (though Sansa's life wasn't at risk),

Only her whole future! Ned put Sansa in a completely untenable position. He wanted her to testify against the very people into whose family he contracted to marry her! He also saw the Cersei and Joff much more clearly than Sansa - did he imagine that there would have been no long-term represussions for her if she spoke out against them?

She's the oldest Stark sister, and should have been more honorable despite the trying circumstances.

A dissolution of engagement on Ned's part before he demanded Sansa's testimony would have been honorable. He put her in position where her loyalties to her birth and future families were in a direct conflict. Women in this culture are strongly conditioned to cleave to their husbands and families they marry into. Ned himself openly disapproved of Cersei's strong loyalty to her birth family. What did he expect?

I'd point out that even after this terrible episode, after murders of Mycah and Lady and Cersei's attempt to get at Arya in some fashion, Ned _still_ didn't try to free Sansa from this now clearly disastrous obligation, nor did he try to explain things to her.

I also disagree that Sansa betrayed Ned. IIRC, he didn't tell her that she had to keep their arrangements secret or warn her that they were in danger from Cersei.

While Sansa should have seen the truth about the Lannisters after this whole ugly affair, I blame Ned much more. He basically sacrificed Sansa's interests and gave her a strong reason to cling to her delusions by maintaining the engagement even after it became clear to him that Joff and Cersei could and would hurt Sansa. If Sansa saw clearly - that would have been a pretty bleak perspective for an 11-year-old, no? Maybe her blindness was as much a defense mechanism as genuine naivité/ foolishness?

I'd like to review the section you refer to, because I don't recall that there was an opportunity for petitioning Robert before Mycah was slaughtered, but I loaned my AGOT to a friend.

The only chance to save Mycah was for Ned to petition Robert as soon as he heard the story from Sansa and before the search parties were sent. I.e. a few days prior to Arya being found and brought before Robert. Sandor returned shortly after the hearing, he didn't even know that Arya had been recovered and he already had Mycah's body with him. I.e. Mycah was killed even before Sansa had a chance to make a public testimony.

Oh, wait - it wasn't murder. IIRC, Joffrey had the legal right to do it. As such, according to some, it was a legal execution, not sociopathic or evil.

Isn't it funny how suddenly one doesn't need to be either lord or king nor to hold any hearing to "legally" condemn somebody when justification of Hound's crimes is at stake? Oh, and chopping Mycah's body in pieces before giving it to his family must have been part of the legal process, too! But Sandor isn't a crazed killer with the potential to become worse than his brother, oh no. Not at all!