Certain mistakes

[Aplomb]

I've seen people try to explain this one away, but to me it is simply a big fat mistake.

Sam and Gilly are onboard the Cinnamon Wind, discussing a name for the baby they are caring for when he comes of age. Gilly suggests something along the lines of Aemon Battleborn or Aemon Steelsong might be good.

Sam muses, "A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood." (AffC, pg. 523 of the U.S. hardback.)

This boy was Mance and Dalla's and no stated relation to Craster. I think simply GRRM got him confused with the other boy left at the wall, who was Gilly's son and thus Craster's grandson (and also son, Craster being a sick bastard).

The only way this isn't a mistake is if either Dalla or Mance were the child of Craster. I think we can rule out Mance as he was not born a wilding but went over the wall as an adult. And I think we can rule out Dalla because there is no mention that Craster ever let one of his daughters slip out of his grasp, and by the fact that Gilly and Dalla aren't seen to recognize each other as sisters. If GRRM meant to reveal that Dalla was the daughter of Craster, this is a very weird and obscure way to go about it.

[Jon Targaryen]

I just believe that Sam is referring to how Gilly is raising Aemon Battleborn so that he is Craster's adopted grandson.

[Aplomb]

I just believe that Sam is referring to how Gilly is raising Aemon Battleborn so that he is Craster's adopted grandson.

Perhaps, but Sam is specifically thinking about blood relationships in the same thought (i.e. the presence of Mayce's blood and the lack of Sam's craven blood). Weird to bring up Craster who isn't a blood relative and who is dead and will not have any contact with the boy in any sort of adopted or foster relationship.

[Guest Other-in-law]

That does seem like a mistake, but we can explain it away as being Sam's mistake if we want. He wasn't too swift about the baby switcheroo, so maybe his thoughts are still muddled about them.

[spork]

In the prologue of AGOT, Waymar the Wight's pupils are described as blue, not the irises. This seems a very odd condition, very noticeable, but everywhere else that wights are described the word eyes is used.

Paraphrase: "Othor never had no blues eyes neither" (I forget which brother said that, it's somewhere in AGOT)

[Ser Spidey]

I remember Renly's eyes, which IIRC were green when we first met him, and Baratheon blue later on.

And Tyrion doing acrobatics at the start of AGOT.

And there is someting to this Craster's grandson thing, although it could be just that he is his adopted son.

Aplomb, Mance WAS born a wildling. But he is not Craster's son.

And even though Tyrion could have been sarcastic, Mormont shows no response to this.

[mormont]

I'm inclined to think that this is a mistake. We can calculate Tyrion's age to be in the 22-23 range at the time of this discussion, and we know that for the past 10 years, it has been summer. This means that the 8 or 9 winters Tyrion has seen must have happened over a period of 12-13 years. Given what we know about the length of the seasons in Westeros, this seems highly unlikely.

Not if all Tyrion is thinking of is periods of colder weather (by Southron standards). I would imagine there have to be such periods on a fairly regular basis to make the ecology work. Eight or nine in twenty-odd years seems fair.

Except that the Citadel seems to provide some standard for measuring the seasons. It is officially "Autumn" everywhere in Westeros when the Citadel sends out the White Ravens, and everyone seems to be expecting a similar sign for Winter. I wouldn't think that there would be that kind of discrepancy.

But my argument is that Jeor is referring to 'real' Winters, as recognised by the Citadel, while Tyrion (misunderstanding him) refers only to shorter 'winters'. I don't think it's all that incredible that Southrons in particular might use the term in a non-Citadel-approved fashion () to casually to refer to minor colder spells rather than 'proper' Winter.

[Ser Spidey]

I'm not quite sure about this, Mormont.

Even for the Southrons, a winter has to come after the autumn and before the spring.

So, you are suggesting a whole new year that Northmen are unaware of.

And the citadel, which is in the south, is also supposed to be ignorant of this?

I don't think so.

[mormont]

The alternative is that there has been no variation in the weather for most of Tyrion's lifetime: that there are no 'mini-seasons' that would allow a normal ecology, only the larger seasons spanning years. (I didn't actually say the Northmen would be unaware of such variations in the weather, either: just that a Southron might be more inclined to use the word 'winter' casually to describe such a period. Even that is not necessary - all that's necessary is that Jeor uses the word in one meaning, and Tyrion takes it to mean something else. I'm not even sure what your last point is - what's the Citadel supposed to be unaware of?)

[Ser Spidey]

The alternative is that there has been no variation in the weather for most of Tyrion's lifetime: that there are no 'mini-seasons' that would allow a normal ecology, only the larger seasons spanning years. (I didn't actually say the Northmen would be unaware of such variations in the weather, either: just that a Southron might be more inclined to use the word 'winter' casually to describe such a period. Even that is not necessary - all that's necessary is that Jeor uses the word in one meaning, and Tyrion takes it to mean something else. I'm not even sure what your last point is - what's the Citadel supposed to be unaware of?)

Citadel is supposed not to pronounce these 'mini-winters'. B/c if they did, then it ought to be winter for Northmen too. And this seems unlikely.

Although I consider this a mistake, my way to try to explain this is streching-Tyrion is 25, summer lasted for 9 years, and there were 8 winters in the first 16 years of his life. Kinda weak, but it's the best explanation I could come up with.

And I don't think that Jeor's winters are different, because he didn't object to Tyrion saying this.

[King James]

The only way this isn't a mistake is if either Dalla or Mance were the child of Craster. I think we can rule out Mance as he was not born a wilding but went over the wall as an adult. And I think we can rule out Dalla because there is no mention that Craster ever let one of his daughters slip out of his grasp, and by the fact that Gilly and Dalla aren't seen to recognize each other as sisters. If GRRM meant to reveal that Dalla was the daughter of Craster, this is a very weird and obscure way to go about it.

Actually, IIRC, Mance WAS born a wildling and taken in by the Night Watch after one of the many skirmishes between the NW and the Wildlings. Part of the reason he went over the wall was a simple case of "...you can take the boy out of the wild, but you can't take the wildlling out of the boy."

[mormont]

Citadel is supposed not to pronounce these 'mini-winters'. B/c if they did, then it ought to be winter for Northmen too. And this seems unlikely.

Well, that's something they're not doing, not something they're 'unaware of'. But of course they wouldn't pronounce them: they wouldn't have any more significance than winter does in our world.

Although I consider this a mistake, my way to try to explain this is streching-Tyrion is 25, summer lasted for 9 years, and there were 8 winters in the first 16 years of his life. Kinda weak, but it's the best explanation I could come up with.

Possible, I suppose. You could also plausibly speculate that Tyrion is out by one or two in his estimate. It is a stretch, though.

And I don't think that Jeor's winters are different, because he didn't object to Tyrion saying this.

I can't see any reason why he would, though. It would derail the conversation and distract from the point he was trying to get to.

One thing to say about this is that if it is a mistake, it's a pretty fundamental one. Even if we assume that GRRM meant the line as originally written, and disregard the known length of the present summer as something he came up with and inserted later, it gives a ratio of at least one winter in every three years. This seems fairly out of keeping with the basic idea of his world being one where the seasons last for years at a time: in fact, it would result in seasons lasting less than 9 months, on average. Still a long time, but not what the basic concept demands. For this reason, it makes more sense to me to explain it away as a misunderstanding over usage of the word 'winter'.

[Ser Spidey]

It seems to me that, since seasons are so long, that not announcinng them would be the last thing Citadel would do.

And the concept with three-year-long Westerosi years isn't that odd to me at all.

But another, and maybe the main reason, why is this a mistake IMO, is its position. In the first half of AGOT, alongside with other mistakes (Tyrion acrobat, Renly's eyes), at the start of the series where George wasn't sure about some things. Maybe he intended Tyrion to be older?

[Jon Targaryen]

My position is that GRRM wrote the Prologue to AGOT fairly early on when he had not established in his mind how long the winters lasted and how many there were. Then the editors did not catch the discrepancy. GRRM does make some mistakes, people. It's not a big deal.

[L'Sana]

Not if all Tyrion is thinking of is periods of colder weather (by Southron standards). I would imagine there have to be such periods on a fairly regular basis to make the ecology work. Eight or nine in twenty-odd years seems fair.

But my argument is that Jeor is referring to 'real' Winters, as recognised by the Citadel, while Tyrion (misunderstanding him) refers only to shorter 'winters'. I don't think it's all that incredible that Southrons in particular might use the term in a non-Citadel-approved fashion () to casually to refer to minor colder spells rather than 'proper' Winter.

Certainly possible, but we have never seen any evidence of this in the perspectives of the Southern characters. When Catelyn talks about "Autumn" or "Winter," she certainly isn't referring to minor cold-spells. The Lannister kids are much less interested in the seasons, but except for this one early comment of Tyrion's, there doesn't seem to be much difference in what they think of a Winter and what the Northerners do.

I could see a few small discrepancies creeping in. The Year of the False Spring, for example: Tyrion was pretty young at the time, and may have thought of there being two winters, divided by the "False Spring" rather than just one that had a year-long warm spell. Even so, 8-9 just seems too high in the (to be generous) 14 years between Tyrion's birth and the beginning of the long summer.

[mormont]

It seems to me that, since seasons are so long, that not announcinng them would be the last thing Citadel would do.

You have again confused the longer Winter with the short one I'm suggesting. Since you seem confused, for clarity, let's differentiate by using capitals for the longer Seasons, which we agree exist, and small letters for the shorter weather variations I'm suggesting.

Yes, Winters (the long ones) would be announced by the Citadel because their arrival will have major effects for potentially years. If short 'winters' exist, on the other hand, they wouldn't be announced. They might be considered unremarkable and unimportant.

And the concept with three-year-long Westerosi years isn't that odd to me at all.

Again, I think you miss my point, which is that Seasons that last for an average of nine months or so simply doesn't really fit what we are told, whether it seems odd to you or not. And remember, that's an extremely generous upper estimate - if we take into account the long summer that has existed for most of Tyrion's life, the seasons would have to have been much more normal otherwise - six months or less, possibly even just the 'regular' three at times. So if this is a mistake, it's a pretty big one.

But another, and maybe the main reason, why is this a mistake IMO, is its position. In the first half of AGOT, alongside with other mistakes (Tyrion acrobat, Renly's eyes), at the start of the series where George wasn't sure about some things. Maybe he intended Tyrion to be older?

Possible. Pretty unlikely though. And Tyrion's stunt at the beginning of AGOT is something that GRRM has pretty strongly suggested was deliberate, IIRC.

Certainly possible, but we have never seen any evidence of this in the perspectives of the Southern characters.

Yeah, this is the biggest problem.

I could see a few small discrepancies creeping in. The Year of the False Spring, for example: Tyrion was pretty young at the time, and may have thought of there being two winters, divided by the "False Spring" rather than just one that had a year-long warm spell. Even so, 8-9 just seems too high in the (to be generous) 14 years between Tyrion's birth and the beginning of the long summer.

But this is the biggest problem with the reverse.

[L'Sana]

But this is the biggest problem with the reverse.

I don't think I see what you mean here. I acknowledge that there could be a few discrepancies but that a difference between 2 and 8-9 seems too big. How is that a problem with "the reverse"?

[mormont]

Sorry, to be clearer: if the reverse (ie Tyrion was really talking of Winters, not winters) is true then there are too many. Too many for him simply to be wrong, and too many (IMO) for it to be what GRRM originally intended. It must be an out-and-out cockup.

[L'Sana]

Sorry, to be clearer: if the reverse (ie Tyrion was really talking of Winters, not winters) is true then there are too many. Too many for him simply to be wrong, and too many (IMO) for it to be what GRRM originally intended. It must be an out-and-out cockup.

Ah. Thank you much for the clarification.

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

I’ve mentioned this before, and it’s probably been covered several times, but…

In the Prologue of AFFC (US hardback pg. 6) after Alleras misses the last apple.

“The day you make them all is the day you stop improving.†Alleras unstrung his longbow and eased it into its leather case. The bow was carved from…

However, a few minutes later (pg. 11)

Alleras gave Pate a lingering look, then slung his bow over one slim shoulder and followed the others toward the bridge.

One could argue that it was the case that s/he slung over one slim shoulder (assuming that the case had a strap). But, if one were to only read the line from page 11 then the image that comes to mind is that of Alleras slinging a strung bow over his/her shoulder; as archers are known to do.

Not a huge mistake (if at all), but a better line might be, “Alleras gave Pate a lingering look, then slung his leather bow case over one slim shoulder and followed the others toward the bridge.â€