The Tragedy of Barristen Selmy

[Vegas]

Seeing as knights in Westeros are a function of the religion of the Seven, wouldn't the KG be obligated to serve whomever the High Septon recognized as king, regardless of legal legitmacy?

[snake]

[quote name='Szar' post='1407702' date='Jun 20 2008, 09.26']In the end, Renly has the right of it. His claim, which is supported by the might of Highgarden and Storm's End, was as good as Robert's ever was.[/quote]

I disagree with you here. Robert never claimed the crown until the last major battle of the Rebellion. The initial battles had more to do with self-preservation than claiming the crown. Once the rebels realized that they could win then they decided that someone had to sit the throne after the Targaryens were deposed and because of Robert's blood ties he was chosen.

Renly on the other hand had no concern for such things. He felt he deserved to be king and he figured(wrongly) that with the power of Storm's End and Highgarden he was going get what he wanted. There was no injustice done to him and no royal decree asking for his head. He just thought it would be neat to be king.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='snake' post='1409677' date='Jun 21 2008, 14.28']There was no injustice done to him and no royal decree asking for his head.[/quote]
There may have been. Joffrey had two spikes on Traitor's Walk reserved for his uncles back in aGoT. While Renly may have already declared himself king by that point (I'm not certain of the exact sequence) Stannis definitely had not. So Joff didn't specifically wait until they renounced him before condemning them to death.

[Szar]

[quote name='snake' post='1409677' date='Jun 21 2008, 20.28']I disagree with you here. Robert never claimed the crown until the last major battle of the Rebellion. The initial battles had more to do with self-preservation than claiming the crown. Once the rebels realized that they could win then they decided that someone had to sit the throne after the Targaryens were deposed and because of Robert's blood ties he was chosen.[/quote]

Nothing you're saying here disagrees with what I said. Robert's claim to the throne was backed by military might, as was Renly's. That's all I was saying.

[quote name='snake' post='1409677' date='Jun 21 2008, 20.28']Renly on the other hand had no concern for such things. He felt he deserved to be king and he figured(wrongly) that with the power of Storm's End and Highgarden he was going get what he wanted. There was no injustice done to him and no royal decree asking for his head. He just thought it would be neat to be king.[/quote]
Renly knew he wasn't the rightful king. He simply thought he was the best choice. And as Robert's brother, he does have a claim -- and with Highgarden and Storm's End, he had the best one. He was [i]winning[/i] without striking a single blow. If Melisandre hadn't killed him with Stannis' shadow, he would sit the Iron Throne now. All the might of Casterly Rock couldn't have stood against Storm's End and Highgarden together, and Robb Stark wasn't interested in anything below the Trident.

There are only seven of the great houses -- Arryn, Tyrell, Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Martell, and Stark. Arryn kept out of the war. Martell did the same. Lannister would have been annihilated between Tyrell and Baratheon on one front, and Tully and Stark on the other.

[Lord Varys]

We cannot be certain that Renly would have won if he fought against the Lannisters. He died before he could try, and if there is a thing that's certain, then that the numbers are not the only thing in a battle that counts...

[snake]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1409909' date='Jun 21 2008, 17.10']There may have been. Joffrey had two spikes on Traitor's Walk reserved for his uncles back in aGoT. While Renly may have already declared himself king by that point (I'm not certain of the exact sequence) Stannis definitely had not. So Joff didn't specifically wait until they renounced him before condemning them to death.[/quote]

I'm not certain if Renly had proclaimed himself king at the time but it was possible. Stannis, however, was thought to have been in cahoots with Ned Stark to steal Joffery's throne.

Plus, Ser Barriston mentions something about Stannis sitting on the throne when he's dismissed and that was before Ned was executed.

Also, doesn't Joff mention to Sansa about his mother cried when she found out about what happened to the Kingslayer? That would mean that she was aware of Renly's crowning by that time as well.

[Szar]

[quote name='Lord Varys' post='1410840' date='Jun 23 2008, 01.00']We cannot be certain that Renly would have won if he fought against the Lannisters. He died before he could try, and if there is a thing that's certain, then that the numbers are not the only thing in a battle that counts...[/quote]
Quantity is a quality all of its own.

No, we can't be [i]certain[/i] -- but I count it pretty darn likely.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think Cersei knew Renly had been crowned by the time Joff tells Sansa that his mother had been crying over Jaime and fretting over his other uncles. Tywin says how she refrained from telling Joff to keep him from sending the City Watch after Renly, which would have left King's Landing undefended. Joff therefore didn't know at the time.

[StarkWard]

Sine Barristan has kinda replaced mormont has Dany's right hand man it seems to me that when Dany decide who to trust among quentyn, tyrion, connington, mummers, dragon, victarion, and crow Ser Barristan will have the final say on who stays with Dany and who gets the cut.

Dany's refused Selmy's counsel before, and she knows that he is too noble and naive to actually be a political councilor. His "tragedy" would be dying in a foreign country, far from home. Best guess, he'll die.

[Lord Damian]

Barristan would be a good adviser on character etc.... Also, let him choose who is worthy to be protecting the queen. Give him authority on who should be acceptable as her queensguard, who is of good character and that is all he should have dominion over. I agree that he is too noble to be devious in his world. Everything is black and white. He and Ned are the most alike of two different characters in the series.

[Yellow Dog]

Barristan would be a good adviser on character etc.... Also, let him choose who is worthy to be protecting the queen. Give him authority on who should be acceptable as her queensguard, who is of good character and that is all he should have dominion over. I agree that he is too noble to be devious in his world. Everything is black and white. He and Ned are the most alike of two different characters in the series.

I think that for all of Ned's worldliness as a lord and a husband/father, politically he was far more naive than Selmy. I have a hard time seeing Ned getting out of King's Landing the way Selmy did, much less coming back in disguise and then getting himself to Quarth and conveniently saving Dany's life.

If the Queen of Thorns had not poisoned Joffrey, Selmy would have ended up in the same predicament as Jaime: having to kill the king to save the kingdom.

I like to think Selmy would have killed Joffrey, even knowing the other Kingsguarders would then kill him.

[Urien the Ragged]

I think that for all of Ned's worldliness as a lord and a husband/father, politically he was far more naive than Selmy. I have a hard time seeing Ned getting out of King's Landing the way Selmy did, much less coming back in disguise and then getting himself to Quarth and conveniently saving Dany's life.

If the Queen of Thorns had not poisoned Joffrey, Selmy would have ended up in the same predicament as Jaime: having to kill the king to save the kingdom.

I like to think Selmy would have killed Joffrey, even knowing the other Kingsguarders would then kill him.

selmy would have never killed a child, that's the most vile thing in the world to him. he's one of the characters that wouldn't sacrifice his ideals for the sake of pragmatism. he's uncompromising when it comes to honor.