Tomatoes 2

[Foreverlad]

[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1436012' date='Jul 11 2008, 00.33']Because the sentence is poorly written, the author didn't try to write it well, since the author didn't try to write it well he didn't care about it. An author that doesn't care about how well his book is written, even in the smallest of sentences, isn't a very good author. Mediocre is the word. Terry Goodkind is a mediocre author, and mediocrity should never be praised or lauded, it should never be something to aspire to. Those who aspire to be only of middling ability deserve nothing but derision. An author should always strive for excellence in his work. Terry Goodkind aspired to mediocrity with his writing ability and achieved it.

So I guess he has earned the derision aimed at him if nothing else.[/quote]

Your post reminded me of one of his interviews so I thought it best to [url="http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:bu5269c_seAJ:fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/2007/12/interview-with-terry-goodkind.html+Goodkind+%2B+Confessor+%2B+Stream+of+Consc&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a"]bring it up[/url]:

Here's 2 different parts of the same interview:

Q: Do you have a process you undergo when you prepare to write? For example, some authors have said that when they're not writing, they like to do a lot of reading.
[quote]Terry Goodkind: Everybody is unique. From what I have been able to gather in terms of how other writers function, I don't operate anything like them. I can't even remember the last time I read a novel. I rarely read novels, partially because I have dyslexia; it takes me a long time to read. I'm a very slow reader, and I like to pay attention to words. Every word has a meaning, and I detest people who skim because they miss the essence of what the writer is saying, they miss all the little clues that give the characters their humanity.[/quote]

snip

[quote]Every word that I write is critical. I will sometimes spend half a day on one paragraph because I'm trying to get the exact right words that convey the exact, proper connotations of what the human beings are thinking, doing, whatever. Every single word I consciously intend to be there; they're not accidental. To skim and just kind of hit a few words in every paragraph, you miss all the work that I put in to make those characters humans. So when I read, I read the same way: pay attention to all the words so you understand what the writer intended. Yes, for me it's partially the dyslexia, but I also want to pay close attention.[/quote]

Later in the interview in regards to writing/completing the final book:
[quote]My publisher gave me a schedule for the book that was well outside my comfort zone, so I was writing “Confessor” on the ragged edge. I wrote the last 80 pages in one sitting, total stream of consciousness. I never re-read it, I just sent it off to the publisher. What you read in “Confessor”, the last 80 pages of the book, is what came up on my computer in one sitting, no editing, nothing. That's a decade worth of planning and just writing it out. It's raw Goodkind [laughs].[/quote]

Since contradictions do not exist, could someone explain this one to me?

[TerraPrime]

[quote name='Ouroboros' post='1436110' date='Jul 11 2008, 03.26']Its clear if he was trying, he stopped towards the middle of the series. I've read most of his books and it is clear he doesn't try as hard as he should. The fact he refuses to have his work edited or to rewrite (and that he gets uppity when such is suggested) also proves he doesn't care about writing to the best of his ability.[/quote]

Or, perhaps TG thinks that whatever he writes the first time is always of publishing quality, and that editors will simply ruin his work. So, it's entirely possible that the root cause is arrogance, and not apathy.

[Arthmail]

There are some interest things that come to light in that interview, Foreverlad.

1. Goodkind is a fucking tool. I have no better, or softer, way in which to say that.

2. Quotes like this: [b]Because of the deterioration in modern literature, as well as things like T.V. and movies, those values are relegated to a bin[/b] and this: [b]In stories, and in movies, in school, in T.V., you're handed self-worth[/b] makes me wonder how he feels about the pablum that is to be his own tv series.

3. Ayn Rand the greatest thinker since Aristotle? Sweet fuck. Her works are barely coherent drudgery, her ideas infintile at best.

4. He misses completely what the War on Terror is about. He claims its people afraid to call it what it is, a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. It only goes to prove, once again, that he knows little of what he is talking about. If you call it a War on Terror, its a nice and neat blanket term allowing one to attack anyone they want, or do what they want in terms of foreign and domestic policy, and label it as part of the War on Terror.

5. The interviewer was a little too in love with Goodkind.

[Foreverlad]

Who am I to argue?

I'll compare and contrast a few other interview spots over in the regular goodkind thread so we can maintain appearances of civility here.

[Kheldar]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']It's stupid because it's impossible. Yes, impossible. I said it. In a world of magic, its impossible. Why?

Lets assume for an instance that the Hulk (Hulk Smash!), is the one doing the punching. He punches Joe Blow Victim in the stomach. Does he punch through? No, because the amount of force exerted, and the material it is exerted upon, would prevent such an action unless Joe Blow Victim was braced against something. Say for instance if he was lying on a table, or standing against a wall. Now, removing the fact that the Hulks hand is larger than Richards by several magnitudes, i bring up this point because there is simply no way - short of magic - that a hand would be able to gain the velocity necessary to penetrate flesh fast enough without the aid of some sort of bracing behind the indvidual being hit to prevent Joe Blow from simply being thrown back through the air before more than minimal penetration is attained.[/quote]
What you're ignoring (and ignore in later sections of your post) is the area of impact. A higher area of impact disperses the kinetic energy across a larger area....which is why a clenched fist punching something does crushing damage while the same fist holding a knife will do slashing or piercing damage. With a knife (or dagger), the impact area is based on the thickness (or thinness) of the point or edge. A man wielding a club or an axe will do different damage because the impact edge of the axe is finer (although still "dull" compared to a knife).

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']I worked for two summers at a military base while in University. Part of the studies included critical diameter, amongst other things. I have seen everything from pipe bombs to ground mounted apache missle test firing. Its all cool, but the principles remain the same in every case.[/quote]
Nifty. I spent years working on all sorts of math and science problems, so I have a good understanding of how to apply logic and science to such problems. In a moment, I'll show how your argument is extremely weak...in fact, near baseless.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']The kinetic energy of an object is the extra energy which it possesses due to its motion. It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its current velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. Kinetic energy can be passed from one object to another.[/quote]
Nicely lifted from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Energy"]here[/url]. Even the last line is from that article.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']In a game of pool, kinetic energy is passed from the cue stick to the cue ball. If the ball collides with another ball, it will slow down while the ball it collided with will accelerate to a speed as the kinetic energy is passed on to it.[/quote]
Yes, that's the basics of what happens when a body in motion strikes a stationary body...conservation of momentum (ignoring friction, of course) would let us calculate the speed and direction of both balls after impact if we have the necessary information (mass of each ball, velocity of the ball in motion, angle of impact).

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']Now lets consider a bullet. As a missile passes through tissue, it decelerates, dissipating and transferring kinetic energy to the tissues; this is what causes the injury.[1] The velocity of the projectile is a more important factor than its mass in determining how much damage is done;[1] kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity. In addition to injury caused directly by the object that enters the body, penetrating injuries may be associated with secondary injuries, due for example to a blast injury.[/quote]
That chunk (except for the first sentence) is from the Wikipedia page on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetrating_trauma"]Penetrating Trauma[/url]. You could have at least removed the footnotes, if you were trying to pass it off as your own work.

You'll note that this even supports the idea that the primary damage is caused by the object entering the body. A bullet does add the kinetic energy to the tissue, but it's energy level is magnitudes higher than a human hand moving at 90mph (professional pitchers can throw a baseball faster than that, so it's not an unreasonable number). On top of that, bullets are theorized to produce a nice effect of hydrostatic shock ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock"]here[/url]'s the wiki link on that, so you don't have to go look for it.)

Now, that's all nifty, but it has nothing to do, really, with the trauma caused by a human hand forcefully entering an abdomen. The minor damage caused by transfer of kinetic energy is nothing compared to the major impact of the hand shoving aside loops of intestine and ripping apart muscle and flesh.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']Lets say tha Richard Rahls fist is similar to that of a thrown club, used by an expert (from the chart that the interwebs so conveniently supplied me). Lets compare it to some other weapons that use velocity to see what we can see:[/quote]
That would be from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile"]here[/url].

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41'][b]Club, thrown (by an expert):[/b] 40 m/s 130 ft/s 90mph [b]Kinetic Energy: 800 J/kg[/b]
- I chose a club because it seems closest to a human hand, so while there is some flaw in this data, its as close as i can get without scouring the web, and i've already gone pathetically far enough on a subject i really care nothing about.

[b]paintball fired from a marker:[/b] 90 m/s 300 ft/s 204 mph [b]Kinetic Energy: 4.1 kJ/kg[/b]

[b]airgun pellet (conventional maximum): [/b] 244 m/s 800 ft/s 545 mph [b]Kinetic Energy: 29.8 kJ/kg[/b]

[b]9*19mm (bullet of a pistol): [/b] 340 m/s 1116 ft/s 761mph [b]Kinetic Energy: 58 kJ/kg[/b][/quote]
That looks reasonable to me.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']So, airguns - which mostly only kill with blows to the temple or eyes - is still six times more powerful on a grade of velocity than a club thrown by an expert (don't ask me what constitutes an expert club thrower). Without that speed, Richards hand wouldn't be able to enter the flesh without simply throwing the man out of his reach.[/quote]
Here's where you go completely wrong. First of all, you can't compare velocity to determine power...not without accounting for mass. Kilogram for Kilogram, the airgun pellet has 37.25 more energy than a club thrown by an expert. However, an airpellet's weight (and therefore total kinetic energy when striking an object) is minuscule, while a club generally has quite a bit of weight to it, and therefore more total kinetic energy. Your argument, as given above, would lead one to conclude that a club could not do damage to a person because it has a lower kinetic energy/kg than an airgun pellet....and airgun pellets only kill with a shot to the temple or eyes.

Your logic is invalid...because it's not kinetic energy per kilogram that matters, it's actual kinetic energy.

On top of that, the kinetic energy involved in a human fist coming in contact with a human abdomen is not limited to the weight of the hand....if properly done, most of the human's weight is behind the strike, meaning that it's not the kinetic energy of a 5kg hand, it's the kinetic energy of a 100kg person transferred via the fist -- or, in Richard's case, through the stiffened fingertips.

You want math? Let's do it.

An airgun pellet weights around 1g (looking at one site, I see as low as 0.42 and as high as 1.4). Kinetic energy of the pellet at 244m/s: 28.9 J. The point of impact is around 5mm in diameter, or about 20sq. mm.. So there's about 1.3J/sq. mm applied force.

A human body weighing 100kg moving at only 20m/s (half the speed of a thrown club), with the point of impact being the tips of the fingers, will have significantly more kinetic energy. Let's say it's moving at 20m/s. E(k)= 1/2mv^2 = 0.5 * 100,000 * 20^2 = 20,000,000 J. Even assuming a 50% energy loss due to compression of both the advancing hand and arm and the targeted abdomen, that's still 10,000,000 joules of kinetic energy. Applied via fingertips, (let's pretend the cross-sectional area of the fingertips is evenly distributed and is 1cmx10cm, or 1000 sq.mm.) That's still 10,000J applied per square millimeter...significantly more than that of an airgun pellet.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41'][b]SO I SAY ITS FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE TO EVEN PUNCH THROUGH THE STOMACH, LET ALONE SNAP HIS SPINE.[/b][/quote]
By your logic, since a sword moves slower than an airgun pellet, it couldn't possibly cleave flesh.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']Unless Terry specifically mentions that he is using magic to do so. And something substantive, not just...well, he's really strong because of his magic. If its just strength, and nothing to help him penetrate the flesh in a quick manner, it still wouldn't work. The hulk couldn't do it, Richard couldn't do it.[/quote]
The Hulk smashes with fists, rather large ones at that.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1435581' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.41']Discussion over.[/quote]
Yes, I think it now is.

[Nerdanel]

It is possible to break human skin with human fingernails. Now if we assume that Richard attacked untrimmed fingernails first on Drefan's bare midriff and Richard had as much of his body weight behind the blow as possible, the pressure on Drefan's skin would have easily been enough to cause bleeding. Getting to the spine is where my suspension of disbelief breaks down but it would take a lot of calculations to see how realistic that really is.

But I think extremely unlikely fight scenes aren't nearly as problematic as things like justifying killing the innocent slaves of the evil army who by definition hadn't been given an employment choice, etc.

[Myshkin]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1436796' date='Jul 11 2008, 12.05'][b]Because of the deterioration in modern literature, [/b][/quote]
One wonders if Terry has ever read any "modern literature". Is the above statement directed at the likes of Garcia Marquez, Rushdie, Grass, Naipaul, Kundera, and Saramago? Terry is dyslexic and admittedly does not read much, so how can he be in a position to make any claims about the state of modern literature?

[Arthmail]

[quote name='Kheldar' post='1436918' date='Jul 11 2008, 15.23']Nicely lifted from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Energy"]here[/url]. Even the last line is from that article.[/quote]


Funny, i don't remember claiming the information is my own. This is an internet forum, not an actual paper on any given subject. The fact that i used the easiest information around - wiki - is really only a reflection of how baseless i think most of your argument is.

What you fail to mention, or pay any fucking attention to, is that bullets, and swords for that matter, have the ability to actualy penetrate. Now a club, or a fist...which is the closest approximation that i could find in the short time that i cared...DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO PENETRATE. Oh sure, they can cause surface ruptures, cuts, abrasions, blah, blah, blah. But it would actually take a while to beat a man to death with a club....if you were hitting him in the stomach. Hit him in the head, different story. But this is the stomach we are talking about here, and you would be causing blunt force trauma...internal bleeding would get to him before you could grind your way into his guts with a club/bat/fist. I have been smoked in the stomach with a baseball bat, and instead of it blasting a hole through my abdomen, it knocked me off my feet and left me crawling for breath.

The reason i brought up bullets, along with velocity and kinetic energy...and the reason you ignored...is that they are fired at significantly higher speeds, and actually have the ability to penetrate flesh because of that (if i took a bullet, had it jutting out of my fist, and punched someone, i would probably barely penetrate the skin - bullets are useless without the velocity). I used the club because it was a convenient example of an object similar to a fist. What you also ignored, in your need to show off your math skills, is that without that velocity necessary to actually penetrate the flesh, Richard couldn't have punched a hole through a man's stomach while he was standing without the aid of something to stop his enemy from flying off his feet, and still pull out his spine. (Again, the baseball bat was in full swing...the kinetic force knocked me on my ass. Now you will probably say, but Sting, its not as point as Richards fingers...but the argument is still the same, because fingers are not actually that pointy)

And his stiffend finger tips couldn't do much more than itch his fucking nose. More likely, all of his fingers would fucking break. Unless there is some internal logic saying that Richard is not only super human strong, but his body is more akin to steel, this idea fails. Sure, a skilled martial artist is going to cause me some serious agony with a strike like that...but he's not going to blast through my stomach with enough speed that i won't be thrown off my feet, just so he can yank on my spine.

But you're honestly deluded man. I can accept a great deal from the books i read, but some actual basis in reality needs to be applied. I have seen you talk circles around constructive arguments, base your arguments on sections of books that you cannot remember and are later corrected on, and generally defend the undefendable.

Have at it, enjoy Goodkind. Don't worry about responding because this entire argument has become an entire waste of fucking time. I wouldn't go so far as to call you a troll, but after having watched a number of individuals bring up valid points, which you fail to recognize for whatever reason, i can see that your mind is set on this path. Enjoy objectivism, enjoy the shoddy writing, and thanks for coming out.

[Foreverlad]

Hmmm...

Forgetting the physics and likelihood of the scene, I would be curious to know why this scene in and of itself was important to the tale? Goodkind has gone on record to explain how important every scene, word and action in his stories is. What does Goodkind supply to the reader by having his protagonist punch a hole into his evil half-brother and remove some/all of his spine? What helped Goodkind determine that the events needed to transpire in this manner, and how does it further any of the author's causes?

[Moosicus]

I'll be the first to admit that math (and physics) is more an enemy than friend to me. Yet still I would like to take part. And for my part I stiffened my fingers and jabbed them as hard as I could into my abdomen. Needless to say, I didn't penetrate flesh (thank Bog). Yet as much as I felt a pain in my stomach, I also felt a pain in my fingers. So I'm wondering what part of all that math (which I admit I don't understand) corresponds to the frailty of the rather small bones in the fingers. Perhaps I missed that in all those calculations. Could one of you (Kheldar or Arthmail) please dumb it down for me?

[Larry.]

I have figured out which Yeard-like creature could do this, Moose.

[url="http://www.zod2008.com/"]Behold![/url]

[Watcher]

[quote name='Moosicus' post='1437325' date='Jul 11 2008, 23.35']I'll be the first to admit that math (and physics) is more an enemy than friend to me. Yet still I would like to take part. And for my part I stiffened my fingers and jabbed them as hard as I could into my abdomen. Needless to say, I didn't penetrate flesh (thank Bog). Yet as much as I felt a pain in my stomach, I also felt a pain in my fingers. So I'm wondering what part of all that math (which I admit I don't understand) corresponds to the frailty of the rather small bones in the fingers. Perhaps I missed that in all those calculations. Could one of you (Kheldar or Arthmail) please dumb it down for me?[/quote]

This is Newton's Third Law of Motion in action. The law states that [i]for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.[/i] Your stomach also pressed into your fingers. Also the amount of energy your fingers delivered to the wide area of your stomach, the same amount was delivered to the smaller space of your fingertips, which is why they also hurt.

[The Pita]

I never knew about General Zod before.
Is he a Democrat or a Republican?
Also, Moosicus, I accidentally read your sig as "Sweet fucking jews"
sleepy time for the Pita!

[Kheldar]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Funny, i don't remember claiming the information is my own. This is an internet forum, not an actual paper on any given subject. The fact that i used the easiest information around - wiki - is really only a reflection of how baseless i think most of your argument is.[/quote]
When you fail to differentiate source material from your own writing, it makes it look like it's your own work.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']What you fail to mention, or pay any fucking attention to, is that bullets, and swords for that matter, have the ability to actualy penetrate.[/quote]
Yes, they do. So what? A bullet is tapered, but not to a sharp point. Buckshot and slugs can penetrate, and neither is sharp. It's because the energy is delivered via a small point of contact, relative to the amount of energy involved.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Now a club, or a fist...which is the closest approximation that i could find in the short time that i cared...DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO PENETRATE.[/quote]
Not when the energy is spread out over a larger area, no. Decrease the impact area and it can. An axe is simply a club with a thin point of contact.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Oh sure, they can cause surface ruptures, cuts, abrasions, blah, blah, blah. But it would actually take a while to beat a man to death with a club....if you were hitting him in the stomach. Hit him in the head, different story. But this is the stomach we are talking about here, and you would be causing blunt force trauma...internal bleeding would get to him before you could grind your way into his guts with a club/bat/fist.[/quote]
Correct. If it was a closed fist used, you would be correct...but does it say "closed fist" in the book?

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']I have been smoked in the stomach with a baseball bat, and instead of it blasting a hole through my abdomen, it knocked me off my feet and left me crawling for breath.[/quote]
The energy transfer was dispersed over a larger area. Taper the edge of the bat, and you decrease the area of contact. The energy is transferred to a smaller area. That's why swords can penetrate skin even though they're not as sharp as a dagger.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']The reason i brought up bullets, along with velocity and kinetic energy...and the reason you ignored...is that they are fired at significantly higher speeds, and actually have the ability to penetrate flesh because of that (if i took a bullet, had it jutting out of my fist, and punched someone, i would probably barely penetrate the skin - bullets are useless without the velocity). I used the club because it was a convenient example of an object similar to a fist.[/quote]
And I've said numerous times that it wasn't a closed fist. You're right...a closed fist would not penetrate the flesh, because the area of impact is too large, and the energy is dispersed over too large an area.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']What you also ignored, in your need to show off your math skills, is that without that velocity necessary to actually penetrate the flesh, Richard couldn't have punched a hole through a man's stomach while he was standing without the aid of something to stop his enemy from flying off his feet, and still pull out his spine. (Again, the baseball bat was in full swing...the kinetic force knocked me on my ass. Now you will probably say, but Sting, its not as point as Richards fingers...but the argument is still the same, because fingers are not actually that pointy)[/quote]
They don't need to be "that pointy", just pointy enough. Like I said earlier, a sword doesn't have to be as sharp as a dagger to penetrate skin, so long as it is pointy enough and has enough energy delivered through that point/edge.

Take something completely different from human flesh as an example. Take the rind off of a watermelon. Cut it in half. With one half, hit it with your closed fist...you will smash a large section of the watermelon. On the other half, using the same force, poke it with your fingers. Instead of smashing the watermelon, your fingers will penetrate. Yes, I'm fully aware that watermelon is not the same as human flesh...the point of the exercise is not to approximate human flesh, but to show the difference between applying the same amount of energy through a closed fist and stiffened fingers.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']And his stiffend finger tips couldn't do much more than itch his fucking nose. More likely, all of his fingers would fucking break.[/quote]
That's definitely a likely outcome. Not a foregone conclusion, but extremely likely.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Sure, a skilled martial artist is going to cause me some serious agony with a strike like that...but he's not going to blast through my stomach with enough speed that i won't be thrown off my feet, just so he can yank on my spine.[/quote]
Momentum solves that problem. A 100kg body at rest requires a lot of energy to put it in motion. When the point of contact is small, the energy isn't transferred over a large area, and it doesn't disperse to the entire body...it remains primarily localized. There will be some transfer of momentum to the entire body, but a good portion of the energy will go to the immediate area. If the energy is sufficient to overcome the tensile strength of the object hit, penetration occurs.

Take the aforementioned peeled watermelon. Hang it from a string. Punch it. The impacted area will flatten, and the entire thing will swing back a good distance. Hang the other half, and poke it with your fingers, using the same force. The watermelon will still swing, but not as far, and your fingers will have sunk into the watermelon.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']But you're honestly deluded man.[/quote]
Thank you for the evaluation of my mental state.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']I can accept a great deal from the books i read, but some actual basis in reality needs to be applied. I have seen you talk circles around constructive arguments, base your arguments on sections of books that you cannot remember and are later corrected on, and generally defend the undefendable.[/quote]
In those places, I've defended things based on my recollection of events. When corrected, I've admitted my mistakes.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Have at it, enjoy Goodkind.[/quote]
Thanks, I will

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Don't worry about responding because this entire argument has become an entire waste of fucking time.[/quote]
Well, I'll respond anyway.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']I wouldn't go so far as to call you a troll, but after having watched a number of individuals bring up valid points, which you fail to recognize for whatever reason, i can see that your mind is set on this path.[/quote]
What points have I failed to recognize?

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']Enjoy objectivism[/quote]
I'm not an Objectivist.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']enjoy the shoddy writing[/quote]
I've read worse.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1437065' date='Jul 11 2008, 18.03']and thanks for coming out.[/quote]
You're welcome.

[Kheldar]

[quote name='Moosicus' post='1437325' date='Jul 12 2008, 02.35']I'll be the first to admit that math (and physics) is more an enemy than friend to me. Yet still I would like to take part. And for my part I stiffened my fingers and jabbed them as hard as I could into my abdomen. Needless to say, I didn't penetrate flesh (thank Bog).[/quote]
You can't put your full weight behind a strike at yourself. You also were prepared for the strike, which would likely cause you to tense your muscles in preparation for the impact.

I appreciate your willingness to use yourself as a guinea pig in the name of research, and am also thankful (not to Bog, whoever that is) that you didn't penetrate the flesh ;)

[quote name='Moosicus' post='1437325' date='Jul 12 2008, 02.35']Yet as much as I felt a pain in my stomach, I also felt a pain in my fingers. So I'm wondering what part of all that math (which I admit I don't understand) corresponds to the frailty of the rather small bones in the fingers. Perhaps I missed that in all those calculations. Could one of you (Kheldar or Arthmail) please dumb it down for me?[/quote]
There would be compression of the joints and compression of the bones. If the force applied to the bones is high enough, it would cause fractures. The softer cartilage of the joints would face serious compression and probably quite a bit of damage. Even with the muscles tightened in preparation for the impact, I would expect that there would be unpleasant...and probably crippling...effects on the fingers.

[Foreverlad]

[quote name='Kheldar' post='1438896' date='Jul 14 2008, 11.05']Even with the muscles tightened in preparation for the impact, I would expect that there would be unpleasant...and probably crippling...effects on the fingers.[/quote]

Nothing a little artistic license can't solve :P

[Kheldar]

[quote name='Watcher' post='1435495' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.03']Khel, maybe you answered this already, but what do you find in TG's books that are so compelling?[/quote]
I enjoy the books as action stories, with some adventure tied in, set in a fantasy world. I like the theme of personal responsibility. I like that the characters have an understandable set of morals that they stick to (for the most part), even if I don't fully agree with the moral code.

[quote name='Watcher' post='1435495' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.03']I think the punching your hand and ripping out parts of the spinal cord scene is one of the worse things I've read. It is completely cartoonish.[/quote]
I think of it as being more along the lines of cheesy kung fu movie-esque. Then again, I like watching cheesy kung fu movies.

[quote name='Watcher' post='1435495' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.03']If Martin would've written I'd drop his series immediately.[/quote]
That would be due to what you're looking for in a book. If I were reading a historical fiction set in the middle ages and modern weaponry made an appearance all of a sudden, I would drop it too. That's one thing that lessened my enjoyment of Joel Rosenberg's [i]Guardians of the Flame[/i] series toward the end (I'm 2 books behind). I also didn't like the way Piers Anthony brought technology into the [i]Kelvin of Rud[/i] series (with Margroff), or Weis and Hickman did it in the Darksword trilogy.

[quote name='Watcher' post='1435495' date='Jul 10 2008, 16.03']It boggles my mind you or anyone is trying to defend it.[/quote]
Defend that particular scene, or the series as a whole? If you look at my defense of the scene, I'm reacting to the assertions that it's completely impossible, and to the misrepresentation of what was in the story vs. how people read/remember it (e.g., ripping out the entire spine). The scene itself is fantastical in nature, a la a cartoon or cheesy kung fu movie. I can understand why some people wouldn't like a book that contains such a scene, but can you understand that other people (such as myself) aren't turned off to the series by the same scene?

I don't like rap music. I think a lot of it (if not all of it) is musically inferior to classical compositions. Does that mean other people shouldn't enjoy rap, or that classical music is the only good music? Would all of Beethoven's work be worthless if he had penned a portion of a symphony in a way that some people didn't like? Should I stop listening to Beethoven's music even if I dislike his Piano Concertos, or think his Chamber Music isn't as good as another composer's?

[Kheldar]

[quote name='Foreverlad' post='1438912' date='Jul 14 2008, 11.16']Nothing a little artistic license can't solve :P[/quote]
Especially with TG's sometimes heavy-handed method of applying such artistic license.

[Larry.]

In many Slavic languages, Bog is God.

My little contribution.

[TheKassi]

One little thing I wanted to get in. The idea that it was okay to kill Kah's brother because the Queens authority was superseded by the authority of the Mother Confessor under Midland's law is silly, Richard destroyed the Midlands and then wrote the Mother Confessor to tell her of his decision.

Thus she had no formal authority other then what Richard gave her, which was not the authority to contradict him. This can be seen from the fact that Richard was perfectly willing to swing a sword at Cara's neck without knowing if it would magically stop or not as punishment for following the Mother Confessor's orders above his own. If someone can be almost executed for obeying the Mother Confessor's orders when they contradict Richard's, it is clear that Kah does not have the authority to overrule Richard.

Richard's orders to the army was to do what they felt was right. Harold's actions are perfectly in line with these orders. Orders Kah's demands directly contradict.

Additionally, the idea that Kah's authority had anything do with this matter is rather silly as her judgment is pushed aside as childish and ignorant by the three magic users in the room that overrule her sentence and execute Harold on the spot. If she had authority to command the armies and so forth, why is her authority so dispassionately contradicted?

Lastly there is the fact that Richard declared the Annexation of the Midland and the declaration that they must fight or be invaded by his forces evil. Richard said it himself, his actions in Blood of the Fold were evil. Crack open Faith of the Fallen and read until you hit “Forcing people to fight for freedom is the worst kind of contradiction.” The fact that his actions in blood of the fold were evil is part of his motivation for running from his authority. Part, not all.

It is rather impossible to then argue that killing a man who was going home to stand between his homeland and a force of monsters he could not possibly overcome is moral by the standards Goodkind laid down. One can argue that it was presented as moral, but in order to do so one must point out Goodkind's moral flexibility.

I actually rather love Herold. It seems I have a habit of falling in love with Goodkind's throwaway characters. My top five list is Giller, Brophy, Victor, Harold, and then Zedd (Thats right Lemmings, I love Zedd.) each of whom I consider far more Heroic then Richard himself, but then I consider Richard one of the least remarkable characters in the series.

Outside of an affinity for trade skills the ability to net converts, Richard is nothing more then a meticulously crafted key that has they ability to track down the door his makers built him to open. Thats about the length and breath of his role. He walks the path people started cutting for him thousands of years before, and manages to read the signs they posted for him. If he didn't happen to win the “Chosen one” lottery he would have been a red shirt.