Syrio neither dead nor Jaqen

[Lord Renly]

[quote]So if you want to say "aha, see, you're a sociopath," you can make an argument ... but it's a shallow, specious argument that doesn't take into account the essentially anti-other nature of sociopaths (not to be confused with anti-Other), nor the distorting effects of Arya's need to survive in a very atypical environment.[/quote]

I think this is true and I appreciate your further explanation of sociopathy. But I also think it's true of quite a few other ASoIaF characters and we don't notice it because they're older or male and our idealized notions of little girls don't get in the way. Indeed, without further specification, the list of "sociopathic" qualities are so broad they're useless. Changing identities, for instance? I doubt that psychologists meant that to apply to people in the Witness Protection program or CIA or MI-5 agents or battered women hiding from their abusive spouses...or orphans of noble blood in a war zone. They meant it to apply to the sort of person who blithely [i]takes on responsibilities[/i] and [i]wreaks havoc[/i] under one name, and then disappears into another identity in order to escape the consequences of his act.

Arya is similar to a child soldier in some obvious ways (facility with killing, desensitization) and different in one other way (namely that she has more control over her choice of victim). I do think she's unhealthy. But so are her circumstances and, indeed, much of her society even under "normal" conditions. I do not see a difference between her and the average male of her class and roughly her age, nor do I think it's strange for a child in her society to kill. Unfortunate, sure, but not strange.

[Tyrion Hill]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1603245' date='Nov 30 2008, 00.08']The questions are: is it healthy for someone her age to have become what she is;[/quote]Sure it is healthy... or she would be dead by now.
[quote]and will it be possible for her to discard what she has learned and return to a more normal attitude when and if circumstances permit it?[/quote]Arya's attitude is [i]normal[/i] from the first page of ACOK till the last page of AFFC. She is a perfectly functioning human being.

[switters]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1603237' date='Nov 29 2008, 16.52']Unresolved character/plot points, or red herrings that get people worked up for nothing, undeniably provide a basis for analysis and argument. And authors do it, no question. But you seem to be implying that it's a good thing.[/quote]

I didn't necessarily mean to imply that it was a "good thing". I simply meant that leaving elements of a story unresolved leads to questions which can generate a lot of personal scrutiny and group discussion. And, personally, I like a certain amount of ambiguity in fiction. It forces me, the reader, to be more active and engaged to the material. But you're right, YMMV, and this may not work as well for other readers. It's a personal preference.

[quote]It's EASY to leave unresolved plot points. It's HARD to tie everything up so there are no wasted scenes and dead-end events.[/quote]

I generally, or at least superficially, agree with you here. Leaving unresolved plot points may be an example of "lazy" writing, but it can also be an artistic choice by the author (for a variety of reasons). Neatly tying up everything can be very satisfying, but can also seem forced and/or uninteresting.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='A wilding' post='1603245' date='Nov 30 2008, 00.08'][...] Arya's environment and circumstances have turned her into what she has become. The questions are: is it healthy for someone her age to have become what she is; and will it be possible for her to discard what she has learned and return to a more normal attitude when and if circumstances permit it? I would say that GRRM intends the thoughtful reader to answer "no" to the first question, without trying to force them to, but YMMV. [...][/quote]
As usual, your response is very reasonable and well put. But let me disagree with it anyway, if only to make my position clear:

I don’t have the feeling that GRRM is a [i]modern[/i] author. “Modern” in the sense of assuming his characters to be born as blank slates, and using the narrative to show us how [i]the environment[/i] shapes these characters into what they become. On the contrary. People are who they are, and there are few indications that GRRM’s reality follows either the axioms of the modernists (“people are shaped by their environment”) or their Westerosi equivalent (“people are shaped by the characteristics of their house”). This rejection of the idiom of modernism is one of the reasons for why his characters are so realistic to me.

(Mind you, there are exceptions. Sandor is who he is because of a scarring experience in his youth. Dany is very much a daughter of House Targaryen.) But Tommen and Joffrey largely have a shared environment, yet different characters.

Similarly, I don’t see Arya “shaped” by her environment. Arya shares the characteristics of the “cliché sociopath” defined upthread [i]from the beginning[/i]. She’s a loner, doesn’t play well with others, she doesn’t persist, she uses aliases. It’s all there, almost from the first sentence. The environment hasn’t made Arya a sociopath. What the environment does is to maybe [i]strengthen[/i] these tendencies, and to give the sociopath the outlet to become an assassin. And that’s what we’re seeing. Arya hasn’t [i]become[/i] fond of aliases (she always was). But now it’s her job.

People’s traits are [i]expressed[/i] in environments. But they aren’t [i]defined[/i] by environments.

(I also don’t think that GRRM moralises. He doesn’t show us stuff in order to provoke an expected reaction, such as us evaluating the morality of the characters we follow. This is another aspect where he isn’t modern: there is no pedagogical project behind the scenes.)

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1603457' date='Nov 30 2008, 08.25']Similarly, I don’t see Arya “shaped” by her environment. Arya shares the characteristics of the “cliché sociopath” defined upthread [i]from the beginning[/i].[/quote]
:o


[quote]She’s a loner, doesn’t play well with others,[/quote]
Absolutely untrue.
She socializes very much with people. Simply, she doesn't like the court environment. But she befriends many people, even of a very low social class.
In her first chapter even Sansa says (with scorn) that "Arya is capable of befriending everybody".
But even if a person is a loner, it doesn't mean that he's a sociopath. There are many "loner people". It's just a personality trait, as the sociability. It's not a mental disease.

[quote]she doesn’t persist,[/quote]
On the contrary, she always persists.

[quote]she uses aliases.[/quote]
She has always used aliases for very practical reasons. In ACOK she uses them [i]to protect herself[/i]. Tell me why do you consider it a sociopath trait? :o
In AFFC she uses aliases because the Kindly Man tells her to do it.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1603478' date='Nov 30 2008, 09.33']On the contrary, she always persists.[/quote]
“Her stitches were crooked.” First sentence.
[quote]Tell me why do you consider it a sociopath trait?[/quote]
I have no opinion on what are sociopath traits, or what the concept should mean. My claim is that Arya is modelled on well-known clichés of sociopathy as handed down to us through popular media such as serial killer movies and the list presented at Wikipedia. The list could be called FooBar and contain 6 different traits. I just claim that it’s the list (or a similar one) GRRM had in mind when creating Arya.

I make no claims about these lists being psychologically [i]accurate[/i] and don’t much care; I’m not a psychologist and neither is GRRM.

[AryaSnow]

double post :rolleyes:

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1603493' date='Nov 30 2008, 11.00']“Her stitches were crooked.” First sentence.[/quote]
And then she looks at her embroidery to check if she can still do something to make it better. But she sees that it's impossible.
Anyway, thit is an occupation that she particulary dislikes and which really doesn't fit to her. It's really normal not having much will to persist, especially if you are a child. I had exactly this attitude towards the tecnical drawing when I was at school. And I think almost all the students have this attitude to some subjects.
In general she's incredibly determined.

[quote]I have no opinion on what are sociopath traits, or what the concept should mean.[/quote]
This term is used to indicate a sort of "mental disease".
All the things you have pointed out are untrue or they aren't indications of a mental illness at all. They are just personalty traits or things that any person with a normal survival instinct would do. At most, you have some mental illness if you [i]refuse[/i] to assume another identity in her situation in ACOK.

[quote]My claim is that Arya is modelled on well-known clichés of sociopathy as handed down to us through popular media such as serial killer movies[/quote]
No, she really isn't like serial killers in the movies.

[quote]and the list presented at Wikipedia.[/quote]
This list can be interpreted in many ways. If you interpret it in an absolute and obtuse way, you will have a lot of absurdities, as I've shown.

[quote]I just claim that it’s the list (or a similar one) GRRM had in mind when creating Arya.[/quote]
No. He had in mind a rebellious little girl, with a strong survival ability, with a warrior attitude, hardened by her tragic experiences.

[shadowbinding shoe]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1603525' date='Nov 30 2008, 12.31']No. He had in mind a rebellious little girl, with a strong survival ability, with a warrior attitude, hardened by her tragic experiences.[/quote]

This is a simplistic view of her character and development. To me the two sisters Arya and Sansa were a study in contrasts and their development since we met them a test of how such characters would fair under hard trials.

Arya is a fiery character that takes everything to heart. Sansa lets the world pass her by while she lives in a rose colored dream world. Arya is brutally honest. Sansa invents stories about imaginal kisses and a heroic prince. Arya is confrontational and Sansa a peacemaker.

In the start I was all for Arya. She was doing what was right, trying to better her situation while Sansa stoically suffered her cruel fate. But as of FFC Sansa is still, character-wise, pretty much undamaged while Arya gets farther and farther away from her original self.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1603549' date='Nov 30 2008, 11.49']This is a simplistic view of her character and development. To me the two sisters Arya and Sansa were a study in contrasts and their development since we met them a test of how such characters would fair under hard trials.[/quote]
1) This is a [i]synthetic[/i] view. I wasn't interested in describing all in detail.
2) Different trials. And I think Arya behaved incredibly well under her trials.

[quote]Arya is a fiery character that takes everything to heart. Sansa lets the world pass her by while she lives in a rose colored dream world. Arya is brutally honest. Sansa invents stories about imaginal kisses and a heroic prince. Arya is confrontational and Sansa a peacemaker.[/quote]
I quite agree.
I can disagree a bit with the statement that "Sansa is a peacemaker". She isn't exactly like this. she doesn't want to kill people by her own hands, to beat them and to fight, because she is a typical medieval lady. It's not her office. But she has often wished the death of her enemies and she has wanted some male warrior to kill them. She expresses her anger in other ways than drawing a sword.
And in her quarrels with Arya sometimes she was less "peacemaker" than her sister.
Anyway...

[quote]But as of FFC Sansa is still, character-wise, pretty much undamaged while Arya gets farther and farther away from her original self.[/quote]
Yes, Sansa is more quiet. But in my opinion it doesn't mean that she's better. They have different personalities, that's all. Sansa has always been more quiet. And I like Arya's personality more, this is a matter of personal preferences.
About the wisdom, Arya simply has a different kind of intelligence. Her main defect is her impulsiveness.
All this doesn't entail she's a sociopath.

[Tyrion Hill]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1603457' date='Nov 30 2008, 08.25']to make my position clear:[/quote]The problem is not that your position is unclear: the problem is that it is wrong.[quote]I don’t have the feeling that GRRM is a [i]modern[/i] author. “Modern” in the sense of assuming his characters to be born as blank slates, and using the narrative to show us how [i]the environment[/i] shapes these characters into what they become. On the contrary. People are who they are, and there are few indications that GRRM’s reality follows either the axioms of the modernists (“people are shaped by their environment”) or their Westerosi equivalent (“people are shaped by the characteristics of their house”).[/quote]The statements “people are shaped by their environment” and "people are shaped by the characteristics of their house" are not equivalent: the first is giving more importance to environment, the second to inheritance. So they are at the opposite sides of the [i]nature vs nurture[/i] debate. You already start with the wrong foot - especially if you intended to make your position "clear".[quote]This rejection of the idiom of modernism is one of the reasons for why his characters are so realistic to me.[/quote]There is no such rejection. Martin applies a mix of nature/nurture approach, matching the most recent findings in genetic research.[quote](Mind you, there are exceptions. Sandor is who he is because of a scarring experience in his youth.[/quote]Nurture[quote]Dany is very much a daughter of House Targaryen.)[/quote]Nature. See? And for you they are both examples of the predominance of "nurture".[quote]But Tommen and Joffrey largely have a shared environment, yet different characters.[/quote]They don't share at all the same environment. You have not understood what "environment" means. It's very different to be the first born and to be the second born - the perspective is completely changed. And [i]still[/i] Martin suggests that Tommen might become a second Joffrey, if left in Cersei's hands [i]after[/i] Joffrey's death (implying that environment indeed shapes the character).[quote]Similarly, I don’t see Arya “shaped” by her environment. Arya shares the characteristics of the “cliché sociopath” defined upthread [i]from the beginning[/i].[/quote]Are you sure you have read ACOK? What you write is so absurd that there's no need to comment. [i]You know nothing, Happy Ent[/i]...[quote]She’s a loner, doesn’t play well with others, she doesn’t persist, she uses aliases.[/quote]She's not a loner, she plays very well with others, she just hates stitching and playing with dolls, differently from her stupid sister Sansa. She is exploring the environment, looking for insects, plants and stones - she's a little biologist, a little archeologist, a very bright and quick mind since the beginning. She's always in touch with people of the lower classes, as she despises the vacuity of the nobility. She persists in the activities she likes. And she doesn't use aliases in the beginning - what are you saying?[quote]It’s all there, almost from the first sentence. The environment hasn’t made Arya a sociopath. What the environment does is to maybe [i]strengthen[/i] these tendencies, and to give the sociopath the outlet to become an assassin. And that’s what we’re seeing. Arya hasn’t [i]become[/i] fond of aliases (she always was). But now it’s her job.
People’s traits are [i]expressed[/i] in environments. But they aren’t [i]defined[/i] by environments.[/quote]It is true that traits are expressed by environment, but they are also created by environment. There's not just inheritance.[quote](I also don’t think that GRRM moralises. He doesn’t show us stuff in order to provoke an expected reaction, such as us evaluating the morality of the characters we follow. This is another aspect where he isn’t modern: there is no pedagogical project behind the scenes.)[/quote]
I totally disagree also with this. Martin is obviously moralising, he clearly wants to communicate something - as has been clearly pointed out by Renly and AryaFan. The fact you don't see it doesn't imply it's not there. It's your limitation, not Martin's.

[Tyrion Hill]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1603549' date='Nov 30 2008, 11.49']In the start I was all for Arya. She was doing what was right, trying to better her situation while Sansa stoically suffered her cruel fate. But as of FFC Sansa is still, character-wise, pretty much undamaged while Arya gets farther and farther away from her original self.[/quote]
How untrue: they both face the challenge of a loss of identity (Alayne).

[Ran]

HE,

[quote]doesn't play well with others[/quote]

This is going too far, and I think you're overstating the case for how well she matches the "cliche" sociopathic profile. To quote from AGoT:

[quote]Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father's table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-andmaidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. Fat Tom used to call her "Arya Underfoot," because he said that was where she always was. She'd liked that a lot better than "Arya Horseface."[/quote]

So, she played and interacted with others just fine, except for Sansa really, and it takes two to tango there. I think GRRM doesn't envision her a sociopath by nature, but specifically because of circumstances of her life. She had, perhaps, more potential for sociopathy than any of her siblings, but really, if you read the first book, she doesn't seem that different from a typical tomboy. Are we to assume all tomboyish girls are latent sociopaths? I don't think so. Just as not all child soldiers were latent sociopaths.

Or, perhaps, the idea is that all children are, really, latent sociopaths until such time as they fully form their personalities and moral frameworks. I find that an odd position.

In any case, I believe her behavior as of AFfC is sociopathic. She's on the way to becoming an assassin, and even the head assassin goes and tells her it's really rare for women to enter that position, so not only is she aberrant, but she's especially aberrant.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1603457' date='Nov 30 2008, 08.25']On the contrary. People are who they are, and there are few indications that GRRM’s reality follows either the axioms of the modernists (“people are shaped by their environment”) or their Westerosi equivalent (“people are shaped by the characteristics of their house”).[/quote]I know you are into the nature versus nurture argument, but in ASOIAF, isn't it more a mix of the two? Noone can contest that each character has a pretty definite personality that is not dependent on the environement, as Arya herself shows by not being what her mother wants, and somehow repeating what Lyanna seemingly was, but on the other hand I get the feeling that GRRM shows heavily that how a character ends is not predetermined but indeed, shaped by the environment, and that there is not only one path, one predisposition but lots of them available from the start, as can be seen with Aerys and the defiance of Duskendale.

Not a blank state, but still a starting point from where the personality can go almost anywhere.

[quote]Tommen and Joffrey largely have a shared environment, yet different characters.[/quote]As for Jaime and Tyrion or Robb and Jon, I think this example is slightly flawed in that there still is significant differences between them allowing for their differentiation. I will bring up the example of true twins, who raised in the same environment will becomes widely different, yet when growing apart have a lot of chance to be similar. Tommen and Tyrion are obviously different from the start, but the simple interaction between the two, as well as the difference in parental attention is enough to prop the two of them in different direction, when in other environment they could both have ended to be not so dissimilar.

[quote]Similarly, I don’t see Arya “shaped” by her environment. Arya shares the characteristics of the “cliché sociopath” defined upthread [i]from the beginning[/i].[/quote]I always got the impression that she was actually developped at first to be at the antipod of that to highlight the stark change she underwent.

She’s never a loner in the true sense of the term, as she is always with someone, as Sansa comments, and anyone is fine. One can even say that among the Stark children, she is one who shows the most her deep bond for her siblings. She plays well with others in that optic, only she is a leader type and as such fits from the start into the "is always right" line of that wikipedia list, it's even highlighted with her stay in Braavos, with all the people she meets, learns from and is seemingly friend with. However, it's right to say she never opens herself since Gendry and Sandor, and that she rejects tentatives of interaction with other people on an equal footing, as evidenced by the way she tosses aside the girl trying to be friend with her in the Vale.

I think she persists, only some things come more easily to her than others. Her stitches are crooked because of genetics, allegedly, trying to sew with her right hand when she is left handed, and she shows once in AGOT that she doesn't try too hard in her education as a Lady because of an inferiority complex towards Sansa "Sansa did everything beautifully...". Once again here, I will bring up my true twin example: it's not that Arya is not predisposed to persistence, as we see her do needlework through war and chaos, but that her family dynamics prod her towards other paths, that she, conveniently, is good at and enjoys.

she uses aliases, but only from the moment she has to flee King's Landing, and her first voluntary use of one is when she enters Harrenhal. Before that, she most definitely does not use them, they are applied to her and she hates it. [i]Arya Horseface[/i] was given to her by Jeyne Poole to ingratiate herself with Sansa, and [i]Arya Underfoot[/i] was given to her by Hullen, but she never used these, she always identified herself with a single name Arya of House Stark, she even was [i]worried[/i] of not really being a Stark to the point she asked her mother if she wasn't a bastard like her brother, it doesn't fit one who is fond of deceit and aliases. From King's landing, she used Arry, but that was forced on her by Yoren, and then for her first chosen covert identities, she was so unprepared to it that she had to use names of people close to her, once again she didn't invent anything. Weasel, Nan, Nymeria, Salty or Cat, none of that was really her invention, her initiative.

This being said, this is indeed her job now, and everything she lived through prodded her in that direction, and I can definitely see the reflection of that list in Arya's behaviour.

[quote]People’s traits are [i]expressed[/i] in environments. But they aren’t [i]defined[/i] by environments.[/quote]What about: People's traits take different forms and importance depending on their environment?


[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1603525' date='Nov 30 2008, 11.31']This term is used to indicate a sort of "mental disease".
All the things you have pointed out are untrue or they aren't indications of a mental illness at all. They are just personalty traits or things that any person with a normal survival instinct would do. At most, you have some mental illness if you [i]refuse[/i] to assume another identity in her situation in ACOK.[/quote]That it is something most would do to survive doesn't make them any less anormal when they persist in a normal environment. I don't think Happy Ent really cares about saying Arya is mentally Ill or not, here, he's saying that she has an extraordinary personality (ie out of the ordinary) that combined with what she went through, fits the description of sociopathy given above. Either way, you are both saying the same thing: she is out of the ordinary, it has been brought forth somewhat by her ordeal but was there at the beginning, and it seems we even all agree about what she is, only calling it with different names

That's where I lean more towards the interpretation that her cold blooded killing has bad moral and story implication, when you don't.

[quote]No, she really isn't like serial killers in the movies.[/quote]
[quote]This list can be interpreted in many ways. If you interpret it in an absolute and obtuse way, you will have a lot of absurdities, as I've shown.[/quote]Powerful argumentation, where did you show that, I'm afraid I missed it. there is nothing to interpret in the list, HE said he didn't try to make the list fit what sociopathy really is, he said he just saw the similarity between it and Arya, while specifying that it didn't matter if that wasn't describing a real mental disorder. I think that he meant that in a sense that list describes an archetype that Arya totally fits.

[quote]No. He had in mind a rebellious little girl, with a strong survival ability, with a warrior attitude, hardened by her tragic experiences.[/quote]Since when can you read GRRM's mind? Or are you GRRM? Or do you mean you only think he meant to do that, but cannot find a definitive argument that cannot be interpreted to demonstrate Arya's descent into dark territory?

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1603584' date='Nov 30 2008, 06.57']She's never a loner in the true sense of the term, as she is always with someone, as Sansa comments, and anyone is fine. One can even say that among the Stark children, she is one who shows the most her deep bond for her siblings.[/quote]
And family in general. I think you can see her trying to recreate her pack throughout the books, she is definitely the most pack-minded Stark.

I think later she becomes desensitized, hard to keep caring when you keep losing those whom you care about, and so this again goes back to why I still agree with what A wilding said. It's a matter of where she's going, not where she is now or was before.

I don't know if I quite agree that bonafide sociopath is the only respectable direction GRRM can take her character ... if the next two books go like the last two for her, then yes it's only logical. But I'm not sure avoiding that means that he is letting her have her cake and eat it too (IE tease us with a dark direction for a while and then let her be the plucky tomboy ugly duckling turned swan at the end).

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Ran' post='1603583' date='Nov 30 2008, 12.54']So, she played and interacted with others just fine, except for Sansa really, and it takes two to tango there. I think GRRM doesn't envision her a sociopath by nature, but specifically because of circumstances of her life.[/quote]
I want to point out that also in AFFC she still has this personality. She is still a very curious girl and she socializes with a lot of people. Dareon is the exception, because she has particular (right or wrong) reasons to hate him.

[quote]In any case, I believe her behavior as of AFfC is sociopathic. She's on the way to becoming an assassin, and even the head assassin goes and tells her it's really rare for women to enter that position, so not only is she aberrant, but she's especially aberrant.[/quote]
1) We don't know if she will become an assassin or if she won't. Let's wait. Now she's very desperate and confused, then we'll see what her true decision will be.
2) In any case, being an assassin doesn't necessary mean being a sociopath. It's like being a mercenary. It means being a cynical person, who gives more importance to the personal gain than to morals. I don't think Bronn has "mental illnesses", so I don't think the FM have them.
3) I think your statement about the fact she's a female is really sexist. I completely disagree. A woman who doesn't want to behave like typical women of their society isn't a sociopath :rolleyes: Anyway, if this is your opinion (but I wonder how a XXI century person can have this sort of opinion, it's really sad...), you have to say that Asha and Brienne are sociopaths too. Also they are often told that their job doesn't fit to a woman.

[dragonslayer]

Arya or Sansa, Sansa or Arya, can't somebody like both sisters for once?

The problem I have with badasses with a heart of gold in general is that they marry both a highly cynical attitude (it takes a wolf to catch a wolf) with uncycnical beliefs (justice, hope). That a person is capable of a high degree of violence and a less than stellar regard for human life is able to turn it off like a tap. While all of Arya kills except for the singer may be justifed, expecting that after all this she can just go back to being the person she was, only with an edge or be a warrior woman in a bikini, is imho wrong.


Oh, and since this is all a thread jack anyway, Syrio is dead baby, dead. ;)

Sheesh, and people accuse Sansa of being unrealistic :rolleyes:

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='dragonslayer' post='1603606' date='Nov 30 2008, 13.30']Arya or Sansa, Sansa or Arya, can't somebody like both sisters for once?[/quote]I do, but Sansa was created as a foil to Arya, GRRM said it directly and it's obvious in the writing, so that readers identifying strongly with one would have opposite feelings towards the other is only normal.

Anyway, Sansa has nothing to do with this discussion

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1603605' date='Nov 30 2008, 13.27']3) I think your statement about the fact she's a female is really sexist. I completely disagree. A woman who doesn't want to behave like typical women of their society isn't a sociopath :rolleyes: Anyway, if this is your opinion (but I wonder how a XXI century person can have this sort of poinione, it's really sad...), you have to say that Asha and Brienne are sociopaths too. Also they are often told that their job doesn't fit to a woman.[/quote]It was a direct quote from the books, something the kind old man said, and as far as we know it's fact for him that women do not work, in general, for Him of Many Faces.

Your beef is with GRRM.

[Ran]

AryaSnow,

[quote]We don't know if she will become an assassin or if she won't.[/quote]

I said she's on her way. I didn't say she is. Maybe something will shake her off that path, but she [i]is[/i] on that path at the moment.

As to that little screed at the end, you can back up and re-read what I wrote.

[quote][b]and even the head assassin goes and tells her it's really rare for women to enter that position[/b], so not only is she aberrant, but she's especially aberrant.[/quote]

It's [i]in the text[/i] that it's especially aberrant for a woman to become a Faceless Man. In the setting, according to GRRM, this is especially aberrant. You can go argue with George about it.