Arya vs. Dareon

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1632372' date='Dec 28 2008, 21.57']Yes.[/quote]
Ah, ok.
I don't agree with you, I think in some situations killing is justified or at least "not appalling". And in ASOIAF there were many situations of this kind. But if your opinion about the ASOIAF characters in general is this, I can understand more your opinion about Arya.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1632385' date='Dec 28 2008, 22.13']But if your opinion about the ASOIAF characters in general is this, I can understand more your opinion about Arya.[/quote]
That makes no sense. I just told you that I’d probably be appalled by the behaviour of pretty much everyone in Westeros. So why are you suddenly able to understand my opinion about Arya, whom I claim to be a [i]sociopath[/i] and [i]appalling[/i] even by the standards of Westeros? I think Arya is [i]especially[/i] sociopathic. How does my [i]universal[/i] opinion about everybody else make that opinion [i]more[/i] understandable?

But as I said, I don’t find my own judgements noteworthy or interesting. I tactfully responded to a direct question of yours, and tried to do it honestly, but it’s really not something I think much about.

And I still seem to fail to communicate my message:

1) I claim that GRRM intended Arya to be a sociopath. (My own opinion about sociopaths, or yours, does not enter into this argument. I could find sociopaths to be perfectly nice people – in fact, I share many of Arya’s more pathological aspects, such as very bad “mind-reading” abilities.)

2) I claim that by the standards of Westeros, Arya’s behaviour is appalling. Especially, her indifference to killing is [i]not normal[/i] by the standards of that society, and Arya has not experienced things that are especially terrible for a random Westerosi. (She [i]has[/i] had it rough by the standards of a highborn princess, so maybe one could form an argument from that.)

Note that the two arguments are different, and used to counter different opinions. The first argument is at variance with “There’s nothing wrong with Arya”. The second argument is at variance with “Well, there may be something wrong with Arya, but we have to keep in mind that she as experienced X, Y, and Z.”

[Maia]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1632762' date='Dec 29 2008, 04.55']Especially, her indifference to killing is [i]not normal[/i] by the standards of that society, and Arya has not experienced things that are especially terrible for a random Westerosi.[/quote]

Except that all of the POVs apart from Brienne kill with equal or greater ease, yes? And those whom we have seen make their first kill (Jon, Tyrion, Cat, Bran) had even less reaction to it than Arya. So, I honestly fail to see where the idea that Arya is abnormal comes from. She is young, but so is Bran. Pod is only a couple of years older.

And according to Brienne the killer instinct is essential for a warrior.

Re: Hot Pie, he was A-OK with abandoning an infant to certain death and otherwise was a callous git, worse than Arya by far. Being indecisive and sqeamish isn't a virtue. Ditto Gendry, to lesser degree.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1632762' date='Dec 29 2008, 09.55']That makes no sense. I just told you that I’d probably be appalled by the behaviour of pretty much everyone in Westeros. So why are you suddenly able to understand my opinion about Arya, whom I claim to be a [i]sociopath[/i] and [i]appalling[/i] even by the standards of Westeros? I think Arya is [i]especially[/i] sociopathic. How does my [i]universal[/i] opinion about everybody else make that opinion [i]more[/i] understandable?[/quote]
The opinion which is more understandable is your statement "I think Arya's bahaviour is appalling". Stop.
Instead, the statement "Arya' bahaviour is [i]especially[/i] appalling" is [i]not[/i] more understandable.
Clear?

[quote]1) I claim that GRRM intended Arya to be a sociopath. (My own opinion about sociopaths, or yours, does not enter into this argument. I could find sociopaths to be perfectly nice people – in fact, I share many of Arya’s more pathological aspects, such as very bad “mind-reading” abilities.)[/quote]
1) And why do you think so about GRRM?
2) Anyway, the fact that GRRM intended Arya to be a sociopath is different from the fact that [i]you[/i] think she's a sociopath (not only from your considering it bad or nice). And, moreover, it seems to me useless to talk about what GRRM thinks: we don't know him.

[quote]2) I claim that by the standards of Westeros, Arya’s behaviour is appalling. Especially, her indifference to killing is [i]not normal[/i] by the standards of that society, and Arya has not experienced things that are especially terrible for a random Westerosi. (She [i]has[/i] had it rough by the standards of a highborn princess, so maybe one could form an argument from that.)[/quote]
And I disagree.
It could be [i]quite uncommon[/i] (not "appalling") for a child and [i]particulary uncommon[/i] for a child female. Not for Westeros people in general. And, to be really precise, we also have to make a distinction between "indifference to killing" and "having killed". The fact that most children and especially female children haven't actually killed doesn't mean that they are horrified by the [i]idea[/i] of taking a human life.
Anyway, "uncommon" doesn't necessarily mean "more immoral", "more scary" or "sociopath". Correct me if I'm wrong but, as far as I know, the word "appalling" is used with this kind of meaning.

[quote]The first argument is at variance with “There’s nothing wrong with Arya”.[/quote]
I don't understand.
Before you said: "[i]My own opinion about sociopaths, or yours, does not enter into this argument. I could find sociopaths to be perfectly nice people[/i]" Now you say that there is something [i]wrong[/i] with Arya.
It sounds like a contradiction.
Usually we don't consider wrong a thing as something "nice".
And if in your opinion she's wrong, you are making a personal judgement.

[quote]The second argument is at variance with “Well, there may be something wrong with Arya, but we have to keep in mind that she as experienced X, Y, and Z.[/quote]
1) The fact that many other children with her experiences haven't killed doesn't mean that they haven't done it because they think killing is appalling.
2) Anyway, considering her experiences is important in any case, because anyway these experiences makes you [i]much more ready to kill[/i] than "normal conditions", even if most of other people in the same tragic situation don't actually do it. Many poor people don't steal, but anyway I understand much more a poor person who steals than a rich person who steals.

[quote name='Maia' post='1632780' date='Dec 29 2008, 10.40']Pod is only a couple of years older.[/quote]
In the AFFC appendix I read that Pod is 10 years old, so he's one year youger than Arya.
Does your version of the book confirm that?

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1632787' date='Dec 29 2008, 10.58']I don't understand.
Before you said: "[i]My own opinion about sociopaths, or yours, does not enter into this argument. I could find sociopaths to be perfectly nice people[/i]" Now you say that there is something [i]wrong[/i] with Arya.[/quote]

To me, it clearly seems that there’s “something wrong” with Arya. Absolutely. And I also think we have enough instances that show us that many Westerosi agree. It’s the “wrongness” that Jaquen H’gar recognises immediately. The wrongness that makes even Sandor pull her off the Tickler, when even Sandor thinks that enough violence has been meted out. The wrongess that impressed even the Kindly Old Man. You and I may be perfectly sympathetic to that wrongness, just like Jaquen and Sandor are. If we were shopping for apprentices to a secret death cult, we would find that kind of [i]wrongness[/i] really nice.

(To be honest I don’t think I am sympathetic to Arya’s “wrongness”. But it’s [i]really[/i] not something I think about. It’s not why I read books. I don’t emote with fictional characters – heck, I hardly emote with [i]real[/i] people! I like Arya’s character because GRRM makes her internally consistent and believable. I get to be inside the head of somebody completely alien, and while I’m in their head I find their behaviour to be completely [i]not wrong[/i]. I don’t much care about the mental exercise of asking myself if [i]I (the Happy Ent)[/i] would have done the same or [i]like[/i] the character. That’s the [i]opposite[/i] of why I read. The mental exercise would [i]estrange[/i] me from that character and diminish my reading experience. That may explain why I so stubbornly refuse to enter a discourse about “what I really feel”. Because I try to avoid feeling anything. I want to know [i]what Arya feels[/i].)

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1632792' date='Dec 29 2008, 11.15']To me, it clearly seems that there’s “something wrong” with Arya. Absolutely.[/quote]
What do you men with "wrong"?
Immoral? Crazy?

[quote]It’s the “wrongness” that Jaquen H’gar recognises immediately.[/quote]
When did he say "there's something wrong with you"?

[quote]The wrongness that makes even Sandor pull her off the Tickler, when even Sandor thinks that enough violence has been meted out.[/quote]
When does he say that "enogh violence has been meted out"? It's honestly difficult to me thinking about the Hound like this :D. He stopped her, but it really seems to me that he just wanted to show that the Ticker was already dead and it was useless going on stabbing him.

[quote]The wrongess that impressed even the Kindly Old Man.[/quote]
When did he say that there is something wrong with her? He said that it's difficult, not wrong.

But, anyway, the most important thing is that:
[quote]And I also think we have enough instances that show us that many Westerosi agree.[/quote]
This is unimportant to my opinion. Many Westerosi agree with many things I disagree with.

[quote](To be honest I don’t think I am sympathetic to Arya’s “wrongness”. But it’s [i]really[/i] not something I think about. It’s not why I read books. I don’t emote with fictional characters – heck, I hardly emote with [i]real[/i] people! I like Arya’s character because GRRM makes her internally consistent and believable. I get to be inside the head of somebody completely alien, and while I’m in their head I find their behaviour to be completely [i]not wrong[/i]. I don’t much care about the mental exercise of asking myself if [i]I (the Happy Ent)[/i] would have done the same or [i]like[/i] the character. That’s the [i]opposite[/i] of why I read. The mental exercise would [i]estrange[/i] me from that character and diminish my reading experience. That may explain why I so stubbornly refuse to enter a discourse about “what I really feel”. Because I try to avoid feeling anything. I want to know [i]what Arya feels[/i].)[/quote]
On the contrary, I think very much about this. Books are are useful also (obviously, not only) for a reflection about the life and the moral in general.

[King Nobody]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1632787' date='Dec 29 2008, 04.58']And I disagree.
It could be [i]quite uncommon[/i] (not "appalling") for a child and [i]particulary uncommon[/i] for a child female. Not for Westeros people in general. And, to be really precise, we also have to make a distinction between "indifference to killing" and "having killed". The fact that most children and especially female children haven't actually killed doesn't mean that they are horrified by the [i]idea[/i] of taking a human life.[/quote]Most of the peasants probably will fight back in times of war, but I honestly can't picture some random farmer seeing a deserter from the night's watch, and taking it upon himself to kill them. Arya might not be "indifferent to killing" but IMO, if you can kill someone for any reason other than self defence, you certainly don't have much of a problem with it.


[quote]I don't understand.
Before you said: "[i]My own opinion about sociopaths, or yours, does not enter into this argument. I could find sociopaths to be perfectly nice people[/i]" Now you say that there is something [i]wrong[/i] with Arya.
It sounds like a contradiction.
Usually we don't consider wrong a thing as something "nice".
And if in your opinion she's wrong, you are making a personal judgement.[/quote]Finding a problem with sociopaths and finding a problem with Arya, even if you believe her to be a sociopath, are two different things. Not all sociopaths are killers.


[quote]In the AFFC appendix I read that Pod is 10 years old, so he's one year youger than Arya.
Does your version of the book confirm that?[/quote]Mine says the same thing, but it was reasonable mistake seeing as Pod's age is never given, only estimated by other characters in the books, and it always estimated as older than Arya. Not everyone reads the appendix.

[quote]When does he say that "enogh violence has been meted out"? It's honestly difficult to me thinking about the Hound like this biggrin.gif. He stopped her, but it really seems to me that he just wanted to show that the Ticker was already dead and it was useless going on stabbing him.[/quote]Seriously? You pretty much agreed right there, you just had to pick apart the wording, he might not have said that, but people do not need to say things for their actions to imply them.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='King Nobody' post='1632819' date='Dec 29 2008, 12.22']Most of the peasants probably will fight back in times of war, but I honestly can't picture some random farmer seeing a deserter from the night's watch, and taking it upon himself to kill them. Arya might not be "indifferent to killing" but IMO, if you can kill someone for any reason other than self defence, you certainly don't have much of a problem with it.[/quote]
He wasn't talking about the particular case of Dareon's killing, but about Arya's killings and behaviour in general, even before Dareon.
Anyway, I think that killing Dareon was wrong, but that it doesn't necessarily mean that she hasn't many problems with killing in general. She hasn't much problem with killing people who she thinks it's right to kill, and she has a very strong morality about this (in fact, in other situations, she disappoves many killings and even saves other prople's life). In [i]almost[/i] all her killings in my opinion she [i]was[/i] right. In Dareon's case no, she only [i]thought[/i] it was right. But I understand her point of view, because it was a strong and secular tradition she was taught. She's wrong, but I don't judge her too hard for this. And I don't think it necessarily makes her crazy, sociopath, immoral and so on.
I don't know if a random farmer would have killed Dareon at first because I don't know if farmers had a particular teaching about the deserters. It's probably more a Strak education. And if they had this education and hadn't have killed him, it would also have been important to see [i]the reason[/i]. Not killing because you think that what you were taught (the deserter should die) is maybe actually wrong is different from not killing because you don't want to loose you time with this things, because you prefer to give him to the Lord (who will kill him) or something like this. The second and the third reasons don't make you a more compassionate person.

[quote]Finding a problem with sociopaths and finding a problem with Arya, even if you believe her to be a sociopath, are two different things. Not all sociopaths are killers.[/quote]
It seems to me that he talked in particular about "sociopaths like Arya". Anyway, if he wants to, he can clarify what he meant.

[quote]Mine says the same thing, but it was reasonable mistake seeing as Pod's age is never given, only estimated by other characters in the books, and it always estimated as older than Arya. Not everyone reads the appendix.[/quote]
I've never attacked anyone for this mistake (especially Maia, who also agrees with me) :D I've just said it's a mistake :P

[quote]Seriously? You pretty much agreed right there, you just had to pick apart the wording, he might not have said that, but people do not need to say things for their actions to imply them.[/quote]
And I really disagree with that implication.

[Maia]

[quote name='King Nobody' post='1632819' date='Dec 29 2008, 07.22']Most of the peasants probably will fight back in times of war, but I honestly can't picture some random farmer seeing a deserter from the night's watch, and taking it upon himself to kill them.[/quote]

OK, so let me quote Jon on the matter (it is from AGOT, the chapter where he attempts to desert):

"...he would need to live a lie, [b]lest every man's hand be raised against him[/b]."

So, yes according to Jon, a peasant _would_ kill a deserter if he could. No mention of any judgement by a lord here either.

Re: Gareth, re-reading this chapter helped me make sense of his situation. It seems that when the NW _knows_ that somebody has deserted, they inform the surrounding lords and those inform their people. In which case see above. But in Gareth's case, he wasn't proclaimed a deserter since NW didn't even know that he was still alive.
_That's_ why he was captured rather than killed out of hand - because the smallfolk couldn't be sure that he was a deserter. Jon ruminates that men in black are viewed suspiciously and reported by the northern peasants, but they can also be on legitimate Watch business, so they aren't attacked out of hand.
That's what Ned's "judgement" was about and why Ned was called in the first place - to establish that Gareth was indeed a deserter. If Gareth was _known_ to be a deserter, then everybody could and should have killed him like a rabid dog.

[King Nobody]

[quote name='Maia' post='1632835' date='Dec 29 2008, 08.20']"...he would need to live a lie, [b]lest every man's hand be raised against him[/b]."[/quote]I see that more figuratively than literally, the smallfolk would report him to their lords, maybe even personally apprehend him, but probably not murder him. Their "hand raised against him" to me means they would work against him. It wouldn't do if the smallfolk saw a man in black and instantly tried to kill him, he could be a recruiter, or be on other official watch business. Benjen got to go to Ned's feast, this probably has something to do with his nobility and the fact that the Starks are so closely associated and allied with the watch, but men still go to mole's town, and while technically they aren't allowed to do this, I don't see anyone from mole's town raising a fuss. even if the NW alerted the lords of deserters being about, ravens take time, and it takes even more time to alert every one of your smallfolk, a measure that IMO they would not go to, because it would probably take to long and be to difficult.

[Bolton Bastard]

To AryaSnow and Happy Ent

Arya hasn't shown any signs from her POV of having antisocial personality disorder, except for her murderers, which is generally regarded as caused by being a sociopath and not an actual symptom.

[Daeric]

[quote]The wrongness that makes even Sandor pull her off the Tickler, when even Sandor thinks that enough violence has been meted out.[/quote]

So we are going to pass judgement on her partly based on a moment of high emotion while stabbing a man that she watched torturing many innocent civilians to death in a barn.

Sandor pulled her off not because it was wrong but because it was pointless to continue stabbing a corpse. This is a man who rode down an unarmed butcher boy and laughed about it afterwards, what makes you think he gives a damn about what Arya is doing.

Arya was also well within her rights to kill Dareon, he was a deserter from the Nights Watch, his life is forfiet were ever he went pretty much like how Tyrions is.

Just because hes in Braavos doesn't mean he is then exempt from the death penalty its just means it was more unlikely that someone will do it.

Add onto to the fact at the time she is the Lady Winterfall (in the eyes of the Lannisters anyway), and the North has always stood by the fact that the man who passes the judgement should swing the sword. She passed judgement, he was guilty of sin and he died.

The main problem people seem to be having with this is the fact that shes both a girl and young, if it had being Jon people would be saying he was correct and had it being a castellen the same would be true.

[Errant Bard]

Hasn't shown any sign? If a character has shown these signs, it's her, go back one thread and find that discussion already covered:

[url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=24930&st=200&p=1268344&hl=Failure%20conform&#entry1268344"]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...p;#entry1268344[/url]

Murder is not a symptom, but it encompasses several, like lack of remorse, lying, considering oneself above laws, acting impulsively and rashly, being irritable and aggressive, or disregarding one's safety. Arya exhibits all that and more during her journey, consistently.

I mean, we got her PoV, we know she kicks corpses of friend because she is suddenly disappointed, has murderous anger gushing out at the sight of a mere bard, has no remorse at all for anything she did up to and including murder, lies all the time and sees no problem in going to fight against an entire army alone. We [i]know[/i] she is not tragically misunderstood because we have her PoV.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SirRots' post='1633021' date='Dec 29 2008, 18.38']The main problem people seem to be having with this is the fact that shes both a girl and young, if it had being Jon people would be saying he was correct and had it being a castellen the same would be true.[/quote]No we would not, as you can see by merely reading this thread or others devoted to Jon or Tyrion, whatever.

You think people would have cheered if Jon killed Ygritte back then for example? Not a chance, it's one of the nuances telling us that Jon is soft/caring/good, killing in those kind of situation marks the character as a "villain type" so to speak. Only the fanatics of a specific character refuse to see it when it happens to their chosen one.

Martin even has to go to length and make his villains cartoonishly black when he wants good guys to kill and stay untainted, like Dany with the slavers. And even yet, it raises questions.

[AryaSnow]

As I said [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=32010&view=findpost&p=1603214"]here[/url], that definition of sociopathy is really unreasonable, overall if you interpret it a litteral and absolute way.

[quote]we know she kicks corpses of friend because she is suddenly disappointed[/quote]
Very undeestandable, in a moment of desperation. It really means nothing.

[quote]has no remorse at all for anything she did up to and including murder[/quote]
Many ASOIAF "good" characters kill without remorse.

[quote]lies all the time[/quote]
She would have been an idiot if she hadn't lie in her situations, not "mentally sane".

[quote]sees no problem in going to fight against an entire army alone[/quote]
Maybe yes, [i]this[/i] can be a [i]sign[/i].
But it may also be a childish act of unreasonableness in particulary diesperate situations. The fact she is a child on the contrary makes it more understandable.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1633070' date='Dec 29 2008, 19.09']Maybe yes, [i]this[/i] can be a [i]sign[/i].[/quote]Yeah, look, he said:
[i]Arya hasn't shown any signs from her POV of having antisocial personality disorder[/i]

Nobody is more blind that one who refuses to see. It reminds me of those who argue regularly that Renly and Loras cannot be gay, sure it can depend on interpretation but signs are there that can be interpreted this way, you know, the ones that are argued not to exist at all.


Also, I notice you bring up justifications for some "signs" usually structured "yes, but it's because of X", yet she still did what she did. Personality disorders are not things that allow you to say "sociopathy made me do it", there is always an external trigger and the reaction fits, or not, the pathology.

As for the "people do it all the time", I suppose you can come up with characters in ASOIAF which shows all the non-signs (since they don't exist) Arya exhibits?

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1633041' date='Dec 29 2008, 18.51']You think people would have cheered if Jon killed Ygritte back then for example? Not a chance, it's one of the nuances telling us that Jon is soft/caring/good, killing in those kind of situation marks the character as a "villain type" so to speak. Only the fanatics of a specific character refuse to see it when it happens to their chosen one.[/quote]
No, I wouldn't have considered him a villain for this reason. Not only because I like very much Jon. It would have been the same if I hated this character. And, if I hated Arya's character, my opinion about her morality and mental state would have been the same. It's not important if the character is a "chosen one" or not, my defense of Arya is consistend with my general view.
Anyway, Jon wouldn't have been a villain. Maybe a little darker, but I don't know, because the fact that prevent him from killing her is the fact she was a woman, and also with this he has almost killed her. If she had been a man, he would have slitted his throat. It doesn't seem to me an event that makes a distinction between a "soft/caring/good" and a "villain". [i]Maybe[/i] it shows a [i]little[/i] moral difference, but surely not much.
And, even if Jon is my second favourite character (after Arya), I think people really exaggerate his goodness. Yes, he's "good", but not so much as people say, IMHO.
And, about Jon (whom, I repaet, [i]I adore[/i]) [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=32648&view=findpost&p=1607096"]here[/url] I made another comment.

[quote]Yeah, look, he said:
[i]Arya hasn't shown any signs from her POV of having antisocial personality disorder[/i][/quote]
If your aim is only to say there is a sign, I can agree. But I know your opinion about Arya, and so there is nothing too strange if I make other clarifications in addition to the direct answer.
I think that has nothing to do with being blind or not.

[quote]Also, I notice you bring up justifications for some "signs" usually structured "yes, but it's because of X", yet she still did what she did.[/quote]
And it's the right thing to do! The circumstances and the motivations can (and, very frequently, are) be [i]fundamental[/i] to judge action.
This is my opinion. Surely not because I like Arya, but it seems to me a general and obvious thing. Then, everybody is free to think in a different way...

[quote]Personality disorders are not things that allow you to say "sociopathy made me do it", there is always an external trigger and the reaction fits, or not, the pathology.[/quote]
It depends from [i]what[/i] the trigger is. It's not only a matter of the action itself.

[quote]As for the "people do it all the time", I suppose you can come up with characters in ASOIAF which shows all the non-signs (since they don't exist) Arya exhibits?[/quote]
If they are non-signs, it's not important how much of them a character shows :P

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1633093' date='Dec 29 2008, 19.44']No, I wouldn't have considered him a villain for this reason.[/quote]Since you don't consider Arya even slightly villainish either, I don't think your opinion is relevant on this point.


[quote]If your aim is only to say there is a sign, I can agree. But I know your opinion about Arya, and so there is nothing too strange if I make other clarifications in addition to the direct answer.[/quote]"Yeah it can be a sign but really it's not"? There is no clarification to make, I know your stance too.


[quote]And it's the right thing to do! The circumstances and the motivations can (and, very frequently, are) be [i]fundamental[/i] to judge action.[/quote]No it's not when analysing a behaviour pattern. When a guy is an alcoholic, does it matter what drove him to that, does it change his problem?


[quote]If they are non-signs, it's not important how much of them a character shows :P[/quote]I see you cannot come up with any name, as expected.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1633106' date='Dec 29 2008, 20.00']Since you don't consider Arya even slightly villainish either, I don't think your opinion is relevant on this point.[/quote]
I always express [i]my own[/i] opinion, obviously.
Your are free to consider it relevant or not.

Anyway, if with "slightly villainish" you mean "not completely white", I absolutely agree. And she's far from this. If you mean "more black than white", yes, I don't consider her "slightly villainish".

[quote]"Yeah it can be a sign but really it's not"? There is no clarification to make, I know your stance too.[/quote]
When did I say that "it's really not a sign"? I said it's maybe a sign (so, [i]maybe[/i] it is, [i]maybe[/i] it's not, I'm really not sure about how to consider it).
So no, you didn't know my stance.

[quote]No it's not when analysing a behaviour pattern. When a guy is an alcoholic, does it matter what drove him to that, does it change his problem?[/quote]
Yes, because being alcoholic means = being depending on alcohol. If you are depending on alcohol, you are an alcoholic [i]by default[/i].
But having the points of the list doesn't necessarily mean sociopathy. And if you think that points of the list necessarily mean--->sociopathy, I disagree with your concept of the word.

[quote]I see you cannot come up with any name, as expected.[/quote]
And then? I've not even tried, because it's absolutely unimportant and senseless, given the fact that I think those are non-signs :P I have no reason to care about that.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1633130' date='Dec 29 2008, 20.23']But having the points of the list doesn't necessarily mean sociopathy.[/quote]
I have no expertise in that. Neither, probably, have you. Neither, in fact, has GRRM.

My claim is merely that “GRRM wanted Arya to be a sociopath”. In fact, I’d go so far as to venture that he consulted a standard list of traits normally associated with sociopathy, similar or identical to the list from Wikipedia that has been quoted on these threads for years. (Alternatively, he may only have [i]implicit[/i] knowledge of this list, since it features as a cliché in popular culture in serial killer movies and cop shows [i]ad nauseam[/i].) He then took this list and modelled Arya’s character according to it, including notable traits that are not obviously [i]violent[/i], such as a propensity for aliases, problems with authority, bad “mind-reading” ability, and even having lack of perseverance to be her opening sentence: Arya’s stitches are crooked.

It could be [i]coincidence[/i] that Arya fits this list so well, and that sociopathy is [i]also[/i] a standard trait of serial killers and that Arya [i]also[/i] embarks on training to be an assassin. GRRM [i]could[/i] have wanted for Arya to not be a sociopath, because he really thought his series needed a tomboy princess with a heart of gold who is secretly beautiful yet feels alienated and no good friend with her cheerleader sister.

But [i]really[/i]…