Arya vs. Dareon

[Anatole Kuragin]

I thought the title of this thread was Arya vs. Dragon and was expecting to be a lot more entertained.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1633197' date='Dec 29 2008, 13.30']I thought the title of this thread was Arya vs. Dragon and was expecting to be a lot more entertained.[/quote]

That would be more entertaining!

I'm not sure if she could take down a Dragon though...

Maybe she'll hook up with someone and steal one though! :pirate:

I just wish that people would quit acting like she's some sort of psychotic killer just because she dispensed a little justice. :tantrum: Dareon had it coming, and it is the first person Arya has killed that has not been solely for survival purposes... and she was proud of it (as she rightly should have been)... It's a sign that our little lady of Winterfell is growing up and becoming a very Noble creature! :thumbsup: I say we should salute her actions, not condemn them! :cheers:

[Valkyrja]

Argh....I feel bad. I just really don't like Arya anymore. I am still interested in learning what happens to her, but as a character I just don't like her. I don't really know why this is......but perhaps its because all the things that I did like about her had to to with her Stark-ness (being a die-hard fan of all things "North" that I am). I don't like that she doesn't have her wolf anymore, I don't like that she's never found her family and that she even stopped trying (thinking they are mostly all dead of course). I don't like that she probably never will reunite with her family (it doesn't even have to be a happy reuinion, just something, dangit!), and I *really* don't like the kind of 'faceless person' she thinks she needs to become right now. I realize that this development may be just temporary and I do understand that that is just GRRM's way---that no character in this series is going to have a happy ending. I've accepted that at least. However, I have steadily been growing to like Arya less and less since the beginning of book 2, and I feel bad about it since it seems that everyone else really likes her and even considers her their favourite character. Its not just about the fact that she kills "too easily". Its more than that.....its like she is barely human.....just this creepy creaturue who is, lets face it, really depressing to read about. I suppose that should muster my sympathy for her, but I just can't for some reason, and find it hard to explain why. I wish I did like her still, since she is a such a main character. I still like Jon (for now) and he still has his wolf (for now), and the same thing with Bran----he still has Summer. Maybe that's part of it, for I *really* care about the direwolves and don't like their deahts or their separation from their humans. I dunno....maybe someone can help me here....? I am a horrible fan for not LOVING Arya? :dunno:

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1633173' date='Dec 29 2008, 21.10']I have no expertise in that. Neither, probably, have you. Neither, in fact, has GRRM.[/quote]
I'm not an expert, but I have an opinion. It seems to me really obvious that this list is only a vague indication for the normal situation of our modern world. I think it's a matter of a simple rational thought. Then, if someone else, on the contrary, thinks that the list should most probably be interpreted in an absolute, literal and obtuse way, that's his opinion. And I disagree.

[quote]My claim is merely that “GRRM wanted Arya to be a sociopath”.[/quote]
I don't know. Maybe.
But I think that if he wants that, it will be really shown by other future much more significant and "real" signs (and I do not even consider almost any point in that list to be a sign, in the particular situation). I'm judging what we have already read and I think that [i]now[/i] there aren't valid reasons to say what you are asserting.
I have no idea if [i]after the next books[/i] my opinion will change or not.
I want to make it clear: I understand the statement "Arya is getting darker, risks to become immoral/sociopath and so on". I have this opinion too.

[quote]In fact, I’d go so far as to venture that he consulted a standard list of traits normally associated with sociopathy, similar or identical to the list from Wikipedia that has been quoted on these threads for years. (Alternatively, he may only have [i]implicit[/i] knowledge of this list, since it features as a cliché in popular culture in serial killer movies and cop shows [i]ad nauseam[/i].) He then took this list and modelled Arya’s character according to it, including notable traits that are not obviously [i]violent[/i], such as a propensity for aliases, problems with authority, bad “mind-reading” ability, and even having lack of perseverance to be her opening sentence: Arya’s stitches are crooked.[/quote]
There is a [i]huge[/i] difference between: "serial killers and/or sociopaths have these traits" and "people who have these traits are serial killers and/or sociopaths". I probably agree with the first statement, but I really disagree with the second. And, I repeat, the difference between them is huge.

And, in particular, I repat, on the contrary she is very determined. Saying that lack of perseverance is a significant trait of hers, only because she doesn't persist with a job she hates (and, especially, [i]when there was nothing more to do[/i] with that embroidery), it's like saying that I'm an anorexic only bacause I refuse to eat mushrooms (that I hate) after having had a very abundant dinner (even if I usually eat very much other food and enjoy it). And, if you think that [i]opening sentences[/i] are temselves particulary important, I say that the opening sentence "Arya’s stitches are crooked" doesn't even mean lack of perseverance, but incapability of embroidering. And yes, [i]this[/i] is a particular Arya's trait.

[quote]It could be [i]coincidence[/i] that Arya fits this list so well, and that sociopathy is [i]also[/i] a standard trait of serial killers and that Arya [i]also[/i] embarks on training to be an assassin. GRRM [i]could[/i] have wanted for Arya to not be a sociopath, because he really thought his series needed a tomboy princess with a heart of gold who is secretly beautiful yet feels alienated and no good friend with her cheerleader sister.

But [i]really[/i]…[/quote]
Oh, it may [i]really[/i] be a "coincidence". I see nothing unreasonable in asserting that. As I've said above: there is a [i]huge[/i] difference between: "serial killers and/or sociopaths have these traits" and "people who have these traits are serial killers and/or sociopaths".

Let's see... let's think about some other traits that serial killers always (or almost always) have in the movies:
- adult age
- sad family past situation
- being a smoker
- not working as a priest
- being able to use a gun
Do you think that a person is probably a serial killer only for having these traits? Do you think that "maybe he isn't, it could ba a coincidence, but really..."? For instance, if a policeman is a smoker and have had some family problems in the past, do these facts make reasonable to say he's secretly a serial killer? Would you say "Oh, it's curious! The serial killers have these traits! So, probably..."
I made a different list, but:
1) The both are fit to the common serial killer stereotype, aren't they?
2) My point is that I think: both the wikipedia list and my list are too wide and generic. It's fundamental to see [i]the particular situation[/i], not stating that a person/character is probably a sociopath/was created on the sociopath model only because of the point 1).

Regarding the assassin training... training isn't the same thing as actually doing this job; professional killer isn't the same thing as "movie sociopath serial killer". IMHO.

And I add...
[quote]because he really thought his series needed a tomboy princess with a heart of gold who is secretly beautiful yet feels alienated and no good friend with her cheerleader sister.[/quote]
I've never said that. I've never said Arya is this and that GRRM wanted to make her this way. I think he definitely didn't.
There aren't only the extremes.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='SwiftSnowmane' post='1633282' date='Dec 29 2008, 22.30']. Its more than that.....its like she is barely human.....just this creepy creaturue who is, lets face it, really depressing to read about.[/quote]
I completely disagree. I think she's very human. Regardless of the fact she's moral/immoral/sane/sociopath and so on, she's [i]very human[/i]. She has strong inner consequences, she feels a lot of emotions (good or bad) and she's really understandable, IMHO. I think she would have been much less human if she went on being [i]the same[/i] as in AGOT, after all her experiences. It seems to me really unrealistic. She's also a grey character, who has contrasting traits and emotions, who provokes a lot of different opinions and discussions. That is a sign of the depth and of the humanity of the character too.
No, she isn't just creepy. She has a lot of moments that definitely aren't creepy.
Yes, reading about her is sad. But IMHO this is a good thing in a character, because sadness is a powerful emotion. I like sad stories in novels and in movies (if they are done well, not in a pathetic way).

[quote]I am a horrible fan for not LOVING Arya? :dunno:[/quote]
No, of course :P It's a subjective thing.
But anyway... it's better loving Arya than not loving her :lol:

[Valkyrja]

Hahaha.....Ok, then, I'll try to at least like her again. Maybe someday I'll even love her.

As for her killing Daeron, I think it was necessary for her character to do it. I think it was a mistake, but I think she needed to do it....maybe in order to realize it was a mistake to just kill for her own pleasure? (Instead of killing for an outside purpose)

[AryaSnow]

Hmm, but she didn't kill him "for pleasure", she killed him because in her opinion he deserved to die. The reason was "the justice". Then it's true that it wasn't really just, but she thought it was and I quite understand why.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Hmm, but she didn't kill him "for pleasure", she killed him because in her opinion he deserved to die.[/quote]
She did. But I ask: what the heck?
Since when is that Arya's to wreak?
My own body count
Is a saner amount
[i]Because[/i] I can keep that in check.

[King Nobody]

[quote name='SirRots' post='1633021' date='Dec 29 2008, 13.38']what makes you think he gives a damn about what Arya is doing.[/quote]Probably the fact that he pulled her off.

[quote]Arya was also well within her rights to kill Dareon[/quote]No, she wasn't, citizens do not have a "right" to carry out justice, neither do fugitive children that are criminals themselves, the killing was rather hypocritical, would you people cheer if an actual representative of the king traveled to Braavos and executed Arya for the murder of the crown's subjects?

[quote]he was a deserter from the Nights Watch, his life is forfiet were ever he went[/quote] It is still undetermined whether his life is forfeit wherever he goes, like I said before, there is more textual evidence to assume Westerosi laws do not apply in the free cities.

[quote]Add onto to the fact at the time she is the Lady Winterfall (in the eyes of the Lannisters anyway)[/quote]No, in the eyes of the Lannisters she is dead, they know full well their Arya is fake, commiting fraud to further their position isn't the same as endorsing Arya as lady of Winterfell.

[quote]The main problem people seem to be having with this is the fact that shes both a girl and young, if it had being Jon people would be saying he was correct and had it being a castellen the same would be true.[/quote]No, the main problem people seem to be having is understanding that Arya is in no way qualified to carry out justice. If it was Jon, yes, I would be saying he was correct because like I said before, he has that authority, but again, we still don;t know if it would be completely legal if it was done in the free cities. And again, yes, if it was a castellan, you can assume that grants him all of the power the lord would have had, so in that case, yes, he would have been right in doing it, but again, probably not in that setting.

[quote]she killed him because in her opinion he deserved to die[/quote]Oh, thats wonderful, you best go down to your local penitentiary right now and let those murderers know that as long as they thought the person deserved to die, they've been falsely imprisoned, because of course they had every right to take the life of someone as long as they thought they deserved to die.

[quote]Then it's true that it wasn't really just, but she thought it was and I quite understand why.[/quote]I sure am glad your not a judge. "really? you had good intentions in mind when you murdered that person? by all means then, go free."

Alot of you just seem biased because you didn't like Dareon and you like Arya, Arya has a terrible personality, no matter which way you look at it, she may be interesting to read about but she is a brat. O but you gotta take into account her experience right? what about Dareon's experience? he managed to break away from a place that he didn't belong in(falsely accused of rape), that he may have had a position to die in, and he managed to do it without killing anyone, remember when Arya escaped from Harrenhall? This situation is much like that one, she was in no immediate danger, she was even treated pretty well(as cupbearer), but she could have been in danger when Vargo Hoat took over, so she killed a guard and escaped. And before you tell me that Dareon was off to become a recruiter, that's not all fancy awe inspiring songs to get people coming along with you, that's also hardened criminals who don't want to go to the wall, and seeing how young and soft Dareon is, he was in a pretty good position to be killed.

And I know someone is going to say Dareon can't be trusted, what if he actually did rape the girl? But why would he lie about that once he reached the wall, once he was already at the wall he would have no reason to lie about that.

And AryaSnow, please stop using the word opinion like it instantly debunks any factual evidence, sure, you can have an opinion, and your opinion can also be proved wrong by specialists who perform studies on human behavior.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='King Nobody' post='1633753' date='Dec 30 2008, 10.06']No, she wasn't, citizens do not have a "right" to carry out justice, neither do fugitive children that are criminals themselves, the killing was rather hypocritical, would you people cheer if an actual representative of the king traveled to Braavos and executed Arya for the murder of the crown's subjects?[/quote]
It wasn't only a legal matter, from her point of view, but also a moral one. It was a matter of principle. She thinks that deserters are "bad" people, not only people who did an illegal thing (she knows that she did illegal things too and doesn't think that all the people who did them deserve to die), and that they deserve to die for [i]this specific crime[/i].
I don't say that she's [i]right[/i], but that she's [i]understandable[/i].

[quote]No, the main problem people seem to be having is understanding that Arya is in no way qualified to carry out justice. If it was Jon, yes, I would be saying he was correct because like I said before, he has that authority, but again, we still don;t know if it would be completely legal if it was done in the free cities. And again, yes, if it was a castellan, you can assume that grants him all of the power the lord would have had, so in that case, yes, he would have been right in doing it, but again, probably not in that setting.[/quote]
I disagree. I wouldn't have been right in these cases too. Legal doesn't mean (morally) right. Gregor Clegane is legal too, 'cause he does what his Lord, and then his king too, allows to him. On the contrary, a peasant who tries to kill Gregor to protect his wife is illegal, a "criminal".
Killing Dareon in Braavos would have been morally wrong even if done by Jon or anybody else. And not because in Braavos there are other laws, but because it would have been definitely unnecessary.

[quote]Oh, thats wonderful, you best go down to your local penitentiary right now and let those murderers know that as long as they thought the person deserved to die, they've been falsely imprisoned, because of course they had every right to take the life of someone as long as they thought they deserved to die.[/quote]
This answer would have sense if I said that she's right. But I explicitly said the opposite.
[i]Then it's true that it wasn't really just.[/i]

[quote]I sure am glad your not a judge. "really? you had good intentions in mind when you murdered that person? by all means then, go free."[/quote]
What makes you think that I'm talking from a legal point of view? And, anyway, where did I say that if I was a judge I would let her free?
I'm not interested in doing immaginary legal trials to the characters from a book. I see no sense in that. I'm interested in understanding them from a moral and a human point of view. And it's a very different thing.

[quote]Alot of you just seem biased because you didn't like Dareon and you like Arya, Arya has a terrible personality, no matter which way you look at it, she may be interesting to read about but she is a brat.[/quote]
Yes, she's a brat. But in my opinion she is neither "bad" nor "sociopath", although she definitely has apparent "dark traits". And she has very admirable traits too. That's not only because I like Arya, I can say this about characters I dislike too.
I don't like Dareon as a person, true. And then? I don't say he deserved to die for this reason.

[quote]O but you gotta take into account her experience right? what about Dareon's experience? he managed to break away from a place that he didn't belong in(falsely accused of rape),[/quote]
I dislike him mostly because he abandoned Sam, Aemon, Gilly and the baby before deserting. He could help them before, at least bringing them money and food he earned. It really wouldn't have cost him much. And [i]then[/i] he could desert. Anyway, I don't think he deserved to die for this reason.

[quote]and he managed to do it without killing anyone, remember when Arya escaped from Harrenhall?[/quote]
And then? It's easy escaping without killing anyone when killing is absolutely unecessary and even useless to your escape. It doesn't seem to me a merit :P

[quote]she was in no immediate danger,[/quote]
And then? Not [i]immediate[/i], but very high, serious and concrete, and I can't see other ways to escape. This is the important thing.

[quote]she was even treated pretty well(as cupbearer)[/quote]
And then? What the heck? Does it reduce your right to survive? Does it reduce the danger?
On the contrary, her cupbearer job was one more reason to try to escape immediately and not later. Her position made her plan work better. If she hadn't been in that position, probably the guard wouldn't have trusted her and she wouldn't have succeed.

[quote]but she could have been in danger when Vargo Hoat took over[/quote]
And it was a very serious danger itself.
And not only Vargo, Gregor too. This is even more dangerous, because she was the girl of the weasel soup and some servant would have told him that.

[quote]And before you tell me that Dareon was off to become a recruiter, that's not all fancy awe inspiring songs to get people coming along with you, that's also hardened criminals who don't want to go to the wall, and seeing how young and soft Dareon is, he was in a pretty good position to be killed.[/quote]
Hmm... yes, this can be a reason.
But Dareon talked about other motivations. Obviously, we can't exclude these motivation too, right.
Anyway, as I said, the reason why I dislike Dareon is a different one. I don't blame him very much for the desertion itself in any case. And, even if I dislike him, I agree that killing him wasn't right.
[i]My point is that Arya's action is understandable and doesn't necessarily make her an horrible monster and/or a sociopath. I've never said that she did well and that Dareon deserved it.[/i]

[quote]And AryaSnow, please stop using the word opinion like it instantly debunks any factual evidence, sure, you can have an opinion, and your opinion can also be proved wrong by specialists who perform studies on human behavior.[/quote]
I see no factual evidence and no expert of human behaviour here.
Please, stop using your opinions and your interpretations as factual evidences :P

[King Nobody]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1633834' date='Dec 30 2008, 07.32']This wasn't only a legal matter, from her point of view, but also a moral one. It was a matter of principle. She thinks that deserters are "bad" people, not only people who did an illegal thing (she knows that she did illegal things too and doesn't think that all the people who did them deserve to die), and that they deserve to die for [i]this specific crime[/i].
I don't say that she's [i]right[/i], but that she's [i]understandable[/i].[/quote]Ned did a pretty poor job raising her if she believes murder is above desertion.


[quote]I disagree. I wouldn't have been right in these cases too. Legal doesn't mean (morally) right. Gregor Clegane is legal too, 'cause he does what his Lord, and then his king too, allowes to him. On the contrary, a peasant who tries to kill Gregor to protect his wife is illegal, a "criminal".
Killing Dareon in Braavos would have been morally wrong even if done by Jon or anybody else. And not because in Braavos there are other laws, but because it would have been definitely unnecessary.[/quote]I was talking on a completely legal level there, though I do not believe it was morally right either, glad we agree.



[quote]Yes, she's a brat. But in my opinion she is neither "bad" nor "sociopath", although she definitely has apparent "dark traits".[/quote]When you are speaking of a spectrum, dark is the "bad" side, she also shows many signs of being a sociopath.



[quote]And then? Not [i]immediate[/i], but very high, serious and concrete, and I can't see other ways to escape. This is the important thing.[/quote]I agree, I was simply trying to point out the similarities in their situation.


[quote]And then? What the heck? Does it reduce your right to survive? Does it reduce the danger?
On the contrary, her cupbearer job was one more reason to try to escape immediately and not later. Her position made her plan work better. If she hadn't been in that position, probably the guard wouldn't have trusted her and she wouldn't have succeed.[/quote]Again, simply pointing out similarities.


[quote]And it was a very serious danger itself.
And not only Vargo, Gregor too. This is even more dangerous, because she was the girl of the weasel soup and some servant would have told him that.[/quote]Yup


[quote]Hmm... yes, this can be a reason.
But Dareon talked about other motivations. Obviously, we can't exclude these motivation too, right.
Anyway, as I said, the reason why I dislike Dareon is a different one. I don't blame him very much for the desertion itself in any case. And, even if I dislike him, I agree that killing him wasn't right.
[i]My point is that Arya's action is understandable and doesn't necessarily make her an horrible monster and/or a sociopath. I've never said that she did well and that Dareon deserved it.[/i][/quote]Of course he had other motivations, he's not just going to want to desert then spend the rest of his life as an urchin.I agree that you can understand why she did it, this doesn't make it right, or legal however, it just means she at least had a reason beyond just wanting to kill.


[quote]I see no factual evidence and no expert of human behaviour here.
Please, stop using your opinions and your interpretations as factual evidences :P[/quote]I wasn't referring to anything I said, I was referring to sociopathy, and that Arya has shown signs of it, just because its "your opinion" that she hasn't, doesn't mean she hasn't, consult an expert.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='King Nobody' post='1633845' date='Dec 30 2008, 13.21']Ned did a pretty poor job raising her if she believes murder is above desertion.[/quote]
It depends from the killing.
There are killings she considers justifiable and killings she considers horrible.

[quote]I was talking on a completely legal level there, though I do not believe it was morally right either, glad we agree.[/quote]
I'm not interested in talking on this level, I put myself out of this kind of discussion.
Anyway, I agree that it's not morally right. I'm just saying that I understand (not justify) her and don't label her "bad" or "sociopath".

[quote]When you are speaking of a spectrum, dark is the "bad" side, she also shows many signs of being a sociopath.[/quote]
Oh, I don't say she's a dark character on the whole. She has [i]dark traits[/i]. It's different.

[quote]I agree that you can understand why she did it, this doesn't make it right, or legal however...[/quote]
Yes...

[quote]...it just means she at least had a reason beyond just wanting to kill.[/quote]
Hmmm, not only. There are reasons and reasons. Her reason is wrong. But there are wrong reasons that I can understand much more than others.
She did a wrong action but I understand her. There are wrong actions which I can understand much less, putting myself in the place of the character.

[quote]I wasn't referring to anything I said, I was referring to sociopathy, and that Arya has shown signs of it, just because its "your opinion" that she hasn't, doesn't mean she hasn't, consult an expert.[/quote]
Since there is no expert in this topic, all the things we say are just opinions.
If I express an opinion, it means that I really don't see the factual evidence of the opposite.
Which signs? Do you think that all the points of the list are absolutely and necessarily signs of sociopathy? Don't you think that the theme is much more complicated and that it's also important to see the motivations and the situations? For instance, if "lying often" is a sign of sociopathy, don't you consider this statement too general and vague? Don't you think that it's also important to see why and in which situation a person lies? And so on...
I don't know what you think about that, but it's my arguement, and it doesn't seem to me that there are factual evidences of the opposite. And, honestly, it also seems me a much more reasonable thing to think. You can disagree. You can think that it you show a point of the list, regardless of the particular circumstance, it's automatically a sign of sociopathy. But it's your point of view, not a factual evidence.

[Maia]

[quote name='King Nobody' post='1633753' date='Dec 30 2008, 05.06']No, she wasn't, citizens do not have a "right" to carry out justice, neither do fugitive children that are criminals themselves,[/quote]

My, aren't you hard on Robb! So, you were saying that noble children, whom some may consider criminals, don't have a right to carry out justice?
I guess that you consider Bran killing Ironborn and wildlings via Summer criminal and sociopathic too? After all, he is a kid, right? And he was in far less danger from Theon than Arya was from Vargo Hoat, too. Yet he chose to kill to escape.

Re: Daeron, as a self-confessed NW deserter "every man's hand was against him" and most Westerosi would have seen it as their duty to kill him. Possibly it would be wrong, from the in-series POV, to do so on Braavosi soil, though. Comparisons with our contemporary morality are quite useless, however. Nobody in ASOIAF could be expected to subscribe to it.

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1633173' date='Dec 29 2008, 16.10']He then took this list and modelled Arya’s character according to it, including notable traits that are not obviously [i]violent[/i], such as a propensity for aliases, problems with authority, bad “mind-reading” ability, and even having lack of perseverance to be her opening sentence: Arya’s stitches are crooked.[/quote]

OK, the aliases were first forcibly imposed on Arya from without and then were essential for her continued survival. In her new life in Braavos she is still strongly encouraged to adopt them. It isn't something that she chose. We actually see Sansa and some other characters going through it, too.
This says nothing about their natural inclination. Dunk, Egg and Hot Pie were the characters, who voluntarily chose to hide behind the aliases, etc.

Bad "mind-reading" ability, i.e. ability to read people? How so? She was better than both Sansa and Robb in that department and is really pretty good for her age.

Lack of perseverance? Are you kidding me? Arya's perseverance got her weapons training (which she pursued with zeal) and her attempts to get back to her family were very perseverant, indeed and only derailed by the events outside her control. She works hard at her current training as well.
Quality of Arya stitching has as little to do with her being a sociopath as Sansa's lamentable math skills have with her own sociopathic potential.

I grant you problems with authority, but of course Jon had those too.

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1633039' date='Dec 29 2008, 13.50']Murder is not a symptom, but it encompasses several, like lack of remorse, lying, considering oneself above laws, acting impulsively and rashly, being irritable and aggressive, or disregarding one's safety. Arya exhibits all that and more during her journey, consistently.[/quote]

As do most other POVs, including 2 of her borthers ;) . I guess that they are all a merry band of socio- and psychopaths, then. Or maybe living in a vastly different society than ours, they should be judged by different standards, eh?

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Maia' post='1633861' date='Dec 30 2008, 13.59']Bad "mind-reading" ability, i.e. ability to read people? How so? She was better than both Sansa and Robb in that department and is really pretty good for her age.[/quote]
I had the impression that Arya is consistently presented as somebody who misreads other people. She is completely wrong about Sandor, she actually thinks Robb and Catelyn won’t take her back, … Maybe I can find textual evidence at some other time.

[quote]Lack of perseverance? Are you kidding me? Arya's perseverance got her weapons training (which she pursued with zeal) and her attempts to get back to her family were very perseverant, indeed and only derailed by the events outside her control. She works hard at her current training as well.[/quote]
Oh, she works hard at learning to kill people. No question about that. But otherwise? She doesn’t seem to have the skill to devote herself to a task that doesn’t fascinate her, such as stitching or learning heraldry. If properly motivated, internally or externally, such as by Weese, she can obsess about things just as much as the next nerd. No question about that. Nerds can memorise all of Monty Python, but can’t clean the bathroom. I’m like that. Arya is like that. Sociapaths are like that (or so I believe).

[quote]Quality of Arya stitching has as little to do with her being a sociopath as Sansa's lamentable math skills have with her own sociopathic potential.[/quote]
Sansa’s lamentable maths skills would normally taken as evidence of a high empathy – unsystematic mind. The opposite of Arya’s, and also the opposite of my own, I might add. I didn’t know that such a trait was associated with sociopathy, in fact, I think the opposite is true.

[quote]I grant you problems with authority, but of course Jon had those too.[/quote]
You cannot disprove a claim of the type “You have property X if you exhibit traits T1, T2, ..., Tn. Y has all those traits. Hence she has property X.” by pointing to somebody else who has trait T_4 and T_7 but not property X. You would need to point to somebody who has [i]many[/i] of the traits, but without property X.

If Jon had killed Ygritte, and his only reaction would have been “I guess the blood will wash off in the snow,” I guess I’d be eager to discuss his sociopathy. If he had killed the old man south of the wall without any hesitation or internal monologue. Or the Halfhand’s final task hadn’t come as a complete surprise to him. If his inner thoughts at any sign of conflict would be,
[quote]"Well?" Janos Slynt demanded of Jon harshly. "Do you deny it? Or will you claim Qhorin commanded you to kill him?"
Jon looked around. [i]Maybe I could kill Slynt, and two more men.[/i] But they were too many. Too many men, too many swords.[/quote]

[King Nobody]

[quote name='Maia' post='1633861' date='Dec 30 2008, 07.59']My, aren't you hard on Robb! So, you were saying that noble children, whom some may consider criminals, don't have a right to carry out justice?[/quote]Robb, as lord of Winterfell, had a right to go to war for his independence, although he was not carrying out justice, he was looking to settle a personal vendetta because his father was executed for treason. He did not know of the Lannister's incest, so he was not trying to depose a false king, his motives were revenge. Robb lost his rebellion and now his family is suffering the consequences. And yes, I was saying that noble children, who are considered criminals by the crown, do not have a right to carry out justice. Winterfell does not even belong to the starks anymore, Roose or Ramsay will probably take it, and it will be inherited by a Bolton (of course this could change, but I speak of the present.).

[quote]I guess that you consider Bran killing Ironborn and wildlings via Summer criminal and sociopathic too? After all, he is a kid, right? And he was in far less danger from Theon than Arya was from Vargo Hoat, too. Yet he chose to kill to escape.[/quote]

1st off, Bran has never killed wildlings "via" Summer, Summer has killed wildlings, there is a difference. Secondly, we do not know if Bran warged the kills of the ironborn. There is a world of difference between killing someone and your pet killing someone. Also, reread through Bran's warging sessions, I always get more of an impression that he can;t control Summer, but more he is sharing the body with summer, he can see through his eyes, feel what he feels, taste what he tastes, even influence his actions with his thoughts but not outright control him.

Also, I condoned Arya escaping Harrenhall, I condoned Dareon escaping the watch, it only stands to reason that I would condone Bran escaping from the ironborn.Your logic is flawed.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1633899' date='Dec 30 2008, 14.45']I had the impression that Arya is consistently presented as somebody who misreads other people. She is completely wrong about Sandor, she actually thinks Robb and Catelyn won’t take her back, … Maybe I can find textual evidence at some other time.[/quote]
Completely wrong about Sandor? I really don't think so :P
Anyway, sometimes misreading poople is a completely normal thing, especially for a child. It's a common thing between among characters too, even among the adults, who made a really stupid mistakes misreading people.
And, for instance, she was right about not trusting to Roose Bolton.

[quote]Oh, she works hard at learning to kill people. No question about that. But otherwise?[/quote]
The same as the 99% of the Westeros warriors/wannabe warriors.

[quote]She doesn’t seem to have the skill to devote herself to a task that doesn’t fascinate her,[/quote]
The same as the most of the people, expecially young people. And many people not even have the skill to strongly devote themself to a task that [i]does[/i] fascinate them.

[quote]You cannot disprove a claim of the type “You have property X if you exhibit traits T1, T2, ..., Tn. Y has all those traits. Hence she has property X.” by pointing to somebody else who has trait T_4 and T_7 but not property X. You would need to point to somebody who has [i]many[/i] of the traits, but without property X.[/quote]
You would be right if really: T1, T2, T3 etc--->sociopathy
But IMHO your arguement is completely senseless, since the points T are normal or at least quite common, in general or in her particular situation.

[quote]If Jon had killed Ygritte, and his only reaction would have been “I guess the blood will wash off in the snow,” I guess I’d be eager to discuss his sociopathy.[/quote]
Why? Do you think that men should be kind with enemies warriors, only because they are women? If they don't care about the sex of the enemy, they are automatically sociopaths? In any case, Arya has no reason to be chivalrous to women, since she's not a male. And guard was not even a woman. Moreover, Jon didn't need to kill Ygritte to survive, Arya did. So the comparison really hasn't sense.
And Jon had no regret about the first wilding he killed and about all the wilding he killed after. Why do you pretend that from Arya?
In addition to this, about Jon, what do you think about [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=32648&st=20&p=1607096&#entry1607096"]his almost killing Alliser Thorne and never thinking after about what he's almost done (and hasn't do only because other people stopped him)[/url]?

[quote]If he had killed the old man south of the wall without any hesitation or internal monologue. Or the Halfhand’s final task hadn’t come as a complete surprise to him. If his inner thoughts at any sign of conflict would be[/quote]
A senseless comparisons, since Arya's situations weren't like these.
The old man was: absolutely innocent, absolutely disarmed, with no fault, not hostile to Jon, a man who Jon swore to protect. Anyway, I don't think killing him would have been wrong. Not doing it, Jon seriosly risked to be killed by the wilding. And this would have made lose the last hope for the NW. They would have been attacked aback and surely defeated, and much more innocent people would have died. Honestly, I think in that moment Jon has been a litte stupid. But he was incredibly lucky, because Summer helped him.
Qhorin's situation was different from Arya's too, since he was his companion, friend, a loyal NW and a man who he admired.

[AryaSnow]

[quote name='King Nobody' post='1633906' date='Dec 30 2008, 15.10']1st off, Bran has never killed wildlings "via" Summer, Summer has killed wildlings, there is a difference.[/quote]
I see no difference. Bran was into Summer, his "soul" was into Summer. He really killed him via Summer.

[quote]Secondly, we do not know if Bran warged the kills of the ironborn.[/quote]
No, we don't. But in any case Bran controls his wolf. Summer obeys to him.
Are you saying that, in your opinion, Bran had no desire to kill that man and that it was only Summer? Is seems to me much more logical that they had a plan to escape and they wanted to kill the guards to do it, because it was necessary.

[quote]There is a world of difference between killing someone and your pet killing someone[/quote]
No there isn't, if you are controlling your pet and you are even in its body.
-If your pet is alone and kills someone, there is obviously a difference.
-If your pet is with you and kills someone, but you tried to stop him and he disobeyed, there is obviously a difference.
-If you are in the body of your pet and kill, there is no difference.
-If you command to your wolf "kill him" and he does it, there is no difference.
-If your pet attacks someone and you let him do, not even a command to stop him, there is no difference.

[quote]Also, reread through Bran's warging sessions, I always get more of an impression that he can;t control Summer, but more he is sharing the body with summer, he can see through his eyes, feel what he feels, taste what he tastes, even influence his actions with his thoughts but not outright control him.[/quote]
My impression is that he doesn't have the [i]complete[/i] control, but he can somehow control him. And after he never thought: "Oh, I didn't want to kill them, but I lost my control... What an horrible experience!". If he had been that "sweet boy" who all the people say and had big problems with the killing and the death (since many people say that even in Westeros not-sociopath children should have them), he would have been shoked by the experience of killing a man and even eating him, especially if he never killed before. Even if we assume that he has no control on his wolf (but I disagree), he had the physical direct experience of the killing and of the tasting human flesh. Oh, I don't want to say that Bran is a sociopath. Simply, in Westeros not being shocked by these things seems to be pretty normal, even for the children.
Ah, this last arguement isn't necessarily "against" you, I don't know what you think about the indifference to death. It's a general arguement against a common opinion ;)

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='AryaSnow' post='1633955' date='Dec 30 2008, 16.09']No there isn't, if you are controlling your pet and you are even in its body.[/quote]The difference here is that Bran is protecting family from certain death the only way he can, and it is not an habit for him to unleash his pet on people, or to even think to unleash him on people.

There is no comparison between occasional self defence, fighting in a war, and killing a guy you don't like in a back alley of a foreign city.

[AryaSnow]

We were comparing Bran to the killing of the Harrenhall guard, not to the killing of Dareon.

Killings like Dareon's one aren't an habit for her. It has been an exeption and a particular case. And she had special (even if not justifiable) reasons, she didn't simply "want to kill somebody because it's her habit", and he wasn't simply "a guy she disliked".
All the other Arya's killings were right, like Bran's killings.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1633899' date='Dec 30 2008, 14.45']Sansa’s lamentable maths skills would normally taken as evidence of a high empathy – unsystematic mind. The opposite of Arya’s, and also the opposite of my own, I might add. I didn’t know that such a trait was associated with sociopathy, in fact, I think the opposite is true.[/quote]


Sansa is the one who tends to misread people - Joffrey, Cersei, Sandor, Dontos etc. Arya is consistently better than she in this department. She easily sees through Joffrey and Cersei, she also seems to understand Sandor far better than Sansa.