Israeli-Palestinian peace

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1636923' date='Jan 3 2009, 17.21']Not further destroying infrastructure in Gaza, thereby lowering the living standards of the residents and making Hamas more powerful isn't a good idea?[/quote]

Alternative to destroying Hamas infrastructure in attempt to stop rocket fire is...

ETA: This could go around in circles for days. Truth is this thread just proves the point, no one really knows in the short term what to do.

And Pax, go back to you Mossad buddies, we see right through you.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1636816' date='Jan 3 2009, 20.54']1) Anyone think this is gonna go well?

2) Anyway, stay safe various borders in the area.[/quote]
1) It won't go well. We have no other choice at this time.
2) I'll do my best.
P.S
Shryke, you do know where the name David comes from, don't you?

[Shryke]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1636927' date='Jan 3 2009, 17.25']Alternative to destroying Hamas infrastructure in attempt to stop rocket fire is...[/quote]

Attempting to address the issues that cause the rocket fire in the first place?

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1636931' date='Jan 3 2009, 17.27']Attempting to address the issues that cause the rocket fire in the first place?[/quote]

See edit above: That is a long term goal.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1636931' date='Jan 3 2009, 16.27']Attempting to address the issues that cause the rocket fire in the first place?[/quote]

The cause of rocket fire is Hamas deciding to fire rockets. Right now Hamas is being 'addressed'. When Hamas decides that the cornerstone of their existence is no longer dedicated to ensuring Israel ceases to exist, they can be addressed in other terms. This is pretty fundamental. And the key reason that they have no moral high ground whatsoever, nor any notable standing with the international community. Until they remove that passage from the 'party platform', it'll be clear to all participants and most observers that they haven't grown up yet and aren't serious about anything but war. If Hamas wants to govern, they must act like it.

[Shryke]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1636934' date='Jan 3 2009, 17.28']See edit above: That is a long term goal.[/quote]

And I've said repeatedly that a short-term goal of ending the attacks is simply impossible. That is also a long-term goal.

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1636887' date='Jan 3 2009, 16.28']To a certain extent, although they have also successfully killed several high-ranking Hamas leaders in the past few days, so this isn't exactly going the way Hamas probably intended.



Interesting and singularly unhelpful. I believe that the area within Gaza where the rockets have been fired from is called 'Gaza'. So good luck with that.[/quote]
Haha, right. People often forget how small that piece of land really is. The Gaza strip is roughly rectangular, 25 miles long and in average about 5 1/2 miles wide, i.e. about 140 square miles of land. There's about 1.4 million people squeezed in there i.e. a population density of about 10,000 people per square mile. This is comparable with the city of Philadelphia in terms of size and density.

[Samalander]

And what really gets my goat, is that I was so looking forward to tonight's episode of CSI (the Las Vegas original, not the crappy copycats!!!).
But they cancelled it because of the ground offensive. :(

[Shryke]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1636936' date='Jan 3 2009, 17.32']The cause of rocket fire is Hamas deciding to fire rockets. Right now Hamas is being 'addressed'. When Hamas decides that the cornerstone of their existence is no longer dedicated to ensuring Israel ceases to exist, they can be addressed in other terms. This is pretty fundamental. And the key reason that they have no moral high ground whatsoever, nor any notable standing with the international community. Until they remove that passage from the 'party platform', it'll be clear to all participants and most observers that they haven't grown up yet and aren't serious about anything but war. If Hamas wants to govern, they must act like it.[/quote]

No, the cause is the conditions the Palestinians live in. Hamas draws it's power from the support it gains by being the only person in Gaza who seems to the locals to give a shit about them.

Horrible living conditions breed violence. Once people have something to lose, violence becomes a much less attractive option and extremists solutions become less popular.

This is no different then any other occupation. You win when you get the people on your side.

[the silent speaker]

It's probably just as well. Had Israel kept to aerial bombardment, in a couple of days Hamas would have started rushing children into any building they thought was about to get bombed in the hope of getting themsleves some deaths to point to.

[Samalander]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1636989' date='Jan 4 2009, 01.23']It's probably just as well. Had Israel kept to aerial bombardment, in a couple of days Hamas would have started rushing children into any building they thought was about to get bombed in the hope of getting themsleves some deaths to point to.[/quote]
Sarcastic and snarky, but sadly spot on.
"Prior to striking Rayyan's house the IDF warned his family about the imminent attack and urged them to evacuate the place, but they refused to do so hopping that the underground shelter (loaded with arms and ammunitions) would eventually protect them. Prior to the attack the Israeli army held deliberations regarding the legality of striking homes used as weapons storages when sufficient warning is given to the residents. It has been decided that this falls within the boundaries of international law and is therefore legitimate. Most of Hamas' leaders have gone into hiding since the Israeli operation in Gaza began, but Rayyan recently pledged not to leave his house under any circumstances."
"Similarly, the Sheikh thought of the idea to camp out on roofs of houses in Gaza that Israel threatened to bomb from the air, and as such to prevent their bombing. In 2006 it was Dr. Rayyan, who cynically initiated to use the Palestinian civil population as a human shield to protect Hamas' targets and homes against Israeli air strikes, knowing the sensitivity of the Israeli army in avoiding civilian casualties. Hamas used this fact in their terrorist build up of infrastructure during the recent temporary cease fire."
Full Link : [url="http://www.rightsidenews.com/200901023181/global-terrorism/the-mujaheed-sheikh-dr.-nizar-rayyan-taken-out-by-israeli-air-strike.html"]http://www.rightsidenews.com/200901023181/...air-strike.html[/url]

[the silent speaker]

Snarky, but sadly not sarcastic. I haven't a link to point to as proof, but I think they've actually done that before.

[Adelle Tully]

[quote name='Stego' post='1633837' date='Dec 30 2008, 21.45']Death to Israel and Peace are mutually exclusive.[/quote]

I say we let them sign a 7 year peace treaty so revelation can just get on with it already.

In regards to rushing children into the bombing targets: And people actually WANT peace with these people? I guess some people might after these idiots who do such things have undergone intensive psychiatric treatment.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1636948' date='Jan 3 2009, 16.36']No, the cause is the conditions the Palestinians live in. Hamas draws it's power from the support it gains by being the only person[b] in Gaza[/b] who seems to the locals to give a shit about them.

Horrible living conditions breed violence. Once people have something to lose, violence becomes a much less attractive option and extremists solutions become less popular.

This is no different then any other occupation. You win when you get the people on your side.[/quote]

Israel wasn't in Gaza when this most recent flareup started. I have no doubt that they'd love to never have to go back. But Hamas kept knocking on their door with several hundred rockets, so they answered. I don't see the point in being too critical with the manner of the answer, Hamas was in fact begging for this with their actions.

The conditions in Gaza could be much better. But the leadership there apparently doesn't want that. Or at least they're unwilling to take the steps necessary to improve things. Israel is not going to tire. And the international community is much more skeptical than usual. Hamas' strategy at the moment seems to be provoking Israel til they respond than wait for the death toll to get high enough til the rest of the world says 'BAD ISRAEL'...its not happening this time. Everything that is happening right now Hamas brought on themselves. They had a ceasefire, they broke it a couple hundred times, they're paying the price.

Innocent civilian casualties are unfortunate, but they are an unavoidable reality of war and they're not being specifically targeted. If democracy is still functioning there, perhaps next time around they'll elect a group that won't fuck them.

[Shryke]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1637359' date='Jan 4 2009, 04.46']Israel wasn't in Gaza when this most recent flareup started. I have no doubt that they'd love to never have to go back. But Hamas kept knocking on their door with several hundred rockets, so they answered. I don't see the point in being too critical with the manner of the answer, Hamas was in fact begging for this with their actions.

The conditions in Gaza could be much better. But the leadership there apparently doesn't want that. Or at least they're unwilling to take the steps necessary to improve things. Israel is not going to tire. And the international community is much more skeptical than usual. [b]Hamas' strategy at the moment seems to be provoking Israel til they respond than wait for the death toll to get high enough til the rest of the world says 'BAD ISRAEL'...its not happening this time.[/b] Everything that is happening right now Hamas brought on themselves. They had a ceasefire, they broke it a couple hundred times, they're paying the price.

Innocent civilian casualties are unfortunate, but they are an unavoidable reality of war and they're not being specifically targeted. If democracy is still functioning there, perhaps next time around they'll elect a group that won't fuck them.[/quote]

Um ... What? That's EXACTLY what's happening this time. It's just like Lebanon again. Israel rolls in, blows shit up, Hamas will help the locals pick up the pieces and suddenly they are MORE popular then before.

Also, the Palestinians conditions are in large part due to the blockade. Hamas is smuggling in food and supplies along with weapons, hence their popularity.

[Shryke]

[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/world/middleeast/26hebron.html?_r=1&ref=middleeast"]An article on the West Bank, where apparently cooperation is working:[/url]
[quote]Hebron, the West Bank’s most explosive city, with a combustible mix of hard-line Jewish settlers and Palestinian militants from Hamas and other groups, is undergoing a shake-up through the introduction of hundreds of Palestinian security officers who over the past month have stopped car thefts, foiled drug deals and arrested scores of Hamas gunmen, even seizing explosives and suicide belts. They have also focused on quality-of-life issues like fighting clans and the sales of outdated food and medicine by criminal gangs.

The Palestinian commander, Brig. Gen. Sameh al-Sifi, has dubbed the deployment Homeland Rising. And while that may seem a lofty name for a law-and-order operation, he has a point. The injection of the newly trained security forces into Israeli-occupied Hebron is, both sides agree, a significant step if there is ever to be a Palestinian state.[/quote]
[quote]This is the second phase of a plan to install in the West Bank a Palestinian security force sponsored by the United States and trained by Jordan. The first, begun in May in the northern area of Jenin, has been widely praised. But Jenin was selected as a pilot partly because it has neither Hamas nor Jewish settlers in any significant numbers. Yet here too the deployment is going better than expected.[/quote]

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1637495' date='Jan 4 2009, 11.50']Um ... What? That's EXACTLY what's happening this time. It's just like Lebanon again. Israel rolls in, blows shit up, Hamas will help the locals pick up the pieces and suddenly they are MORE popular then before.

Also, the Palestinians conditions are in large part due to the blockade. Hamas is smuggling in food and supplies along with weapons, hence their popularity.[/quote]

And the blockade is due to frequent attacks and not aided by the Hamas 'Destroy Israel' party platform.

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1637523' date='Jan 4 2009, 19.56']And the blockade is due to frequent attacks and not aided by the Hamas 'Destroy Israel' party platform.[/quote]
That argument would hold more ground if these harmless attacks were actually worth being upset about in the first place.

[Shryke]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1637523' date='Jan 4 2009, 13.56']And the blockade is due to frequent attacks and not aided by the Hamas 'Destroy Israel' party platform.[/quote]

And the bloackade only strengthens Hamas, leading to more attacks.

But, really, politics has been leading to strategically dubious choices in Israel for ages now, so it's not like this is a surprise.


It's funny though, you keep acting like we haven't seen something like this before. This is just an occupation scenario and you need to treat it the same.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637536' date='Jan 4 2009, 14.22']That argument would hold more ground if these harmless attacks were actually worth being upset about in the first place.[/quote]

Hehe, good one. :thumbsup:




....Wait, haven't 15 Israeli civilians (at least) been killed by these rockets? Ah, fuck them right? Don't worry, you had it right the first time. :thumbsup: