shadowbinding shoe Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Oh, and since this is a brainstorming thread for finding a solution to the situation there's this: To gain an Israeli citizenship you can convert to Judaism. Doing this you will have automatic full citizenship. Israel has for many years given authority in religious matters to the Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox's procedure for converting to Judaism is long and arduous. If Israel could be made to accept an easier route as valid conversion (for example the Reform one), Palestinians would have a way to gain a place in the state of Israel if they wished. the problems of the non-Jewish arabs in this land could be solved easily and quickly with a simple religious ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1636292' date='Jan 2 2009, 15.56']Oh, and since this is a brainstorming thread for finding a solution to the situation there's this: To gain an Israeli citizenship you can convert to Judaism. Doing this you will have automatic full citizenship. Israel has for many years given authority in religious matters to the Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox's procedure for converting to Judaism is long and arduous. If Israel could be made to accept an easier route as valid conversion (for example the Reform one), Palestinians would have a way to gain a place in the state of Israel if they wished. the problems of the non-Jewish arabs in this land could be solved easily and quickly with a simple religious ceremony.[/quote] This may be the craziest peace idea I have ever read. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungtotte Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 No it's good. The solution to anti-american terrorism is of course that all Americans convert to Islam. Why has nobody ever thought of this before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Cocomaan' post='1636323' date='Jan 2 2009, 23.52']There needs to be a religious reconciliation if anything is actually going to get done.[/quote] And you would know, beacuse you are a ... (enter relevent religious denomination) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Cocomaan' post='1636323' date='Jan 2 2009, 16.52']Joking aside, the solution lies in outside of the secular language currently being used. There needs to be a religious reconciliation if anything is actually going to get done.[/quote] I'm not following. Could you elaborate? Samalander: Coco is a Muslim. Of some sort of Sufi persuasion IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pom-bear Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Homat Magen occurred along time before Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians to govern Gaza. Israel never accepted the result of the Palestinian elections. It did support Fatah to overthrow Hamas in a military coup. I wouldn't call Gaza a state in any sense of the word it's more like the world's largest ghetto or as some have termed it an open air prison. The embyonic Jewish state emerging from the British Mandate was imposed by force on, and against the will of, the indigenous Palestinian population. On no generally accepted principles of morality or law could this flagrant violation of the Palestinians' right to self determination be justified. Is there any example in history of a people voluntarily relinquishing a fragment, let alone most, of their country to settlers coming abroad to colonize it & then drive them out? The UN Partition Resolution, giving Zionists title to part of Palestine appeared to ratify their ursupation as well flouting a fundamental principle of the UN organization itself - the imposition of a form of government against the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants. As David Ben-Gurion stated: “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?†On November 4, the Israelis broke the ceasefire with Hamas knowing full well that when they killed six militants in Gaza the Palestinians would retaliate. Richard Falk, UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights, has condemned Israel's airstrikes aimed at civilians areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East. Hamas has also warned Israel that it will respond to the attack on Gaza with rocket fire. Israeli residents in areas susceptible to rocket attack can now pack their belongings & move to a safer location. The IDF intelligence report at the time itself undermines the traditional official Israeli explanation of a mass flight ordered or incited by the Arab leadership for political-strategic reasons. This IDF intelligence makes no mention of any blanket order issued over Arab radio stations or through other means to Palestinians to evacuate their homes & villages. If their had been it would be documented. As Erskine Childers an Irish diplomat & journalist explained: "Examining every official Israeli statement about the Arab exodus, I was struck by the fact that no primary evidence of evacuation orders was ever produced." Also the BBC monitored all Middle East broadcast throughout 1948. Childer went through all the transcripts: "There was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civillians of Palestine to stay put." From a moral perspective, the question of whether the Palestinians ran way "under orders" or "under pressure" is a secondary one. Whatever prompted their flight, they had a right to expect to return home after the end of hostilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I always like to know a few things about people I'm discoursing with. So, pom-bear, where are from? What are your hobbies? Do you now or have you ever had any affilation to "Islamic Charities"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='pom-bear' post='1636335' date='Jan 3 2009, 00.09']I wouldn't call Gaza a state in any sense of the word it's more like the world's largest ghetto or as some have termed it an open air prison.[/quote] There is no international law that says Israel or Egypt have to keep open borders with a hostile entity. As for the sea blockade, they brought it on themselves, smuggling in rockets and whatnot to shoot at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Dinsdale!' post='1636329' date='Jan 2 2009, 16.58']Samalander: Coco is a Muslim. Of some sort of Sufi persuasion IIRC.[/quote] Coco is an American Middle East and Islam scholar. I don't know if he considers himself a Muslim or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Inigima' post='1636347' date='Jan 2 2009, 17.24']Coco is an American Middle East and Islam scholar. I don't know if he considers himself a Muslim or not.[/quote] Ok. I thought he was, because I thought he celebrated Ramadan this year. :unsure: Well, I guess we can always ask him: Coco, do you consider yourself Muslim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1636325' date='Jan 2 2009, 16.55']And you would know, beacuse you are a ... (enter relevent religious denomination)[/quote] Clearly he is a member of the tribe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='pom-bear' post='1636335' date='Jan 2 2009, 17.09']<snip> From a moral perspective, the question of whether the Palestinians ran way "under orders" or "under pressure" is a secondary one. Whatever prompted their flight, they had a right to expect to return home after the end of hostilities.[/quote] I'm taking it that you are in favor of the full Right of Return One State Solution. But what makes you think that will make the area peaceful? It just seems like a one way path to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='pom-bear' post='1636335' date='Jan 3 2009, 00.09']1) The embyonic Jewish state emerging from the British Mandate was imposed by force on, and against the will of, the indigenous Palestinian population. On no generally accepted principles of morality or law could this flagrant violation of the Palestinians' right to self determination be justified. Is there any example in history of a people voluntarily relinquishing a fragment, let alone most, of their country to settlers coming abroad to colonize it & then drive them out? The UN Partition Resolution, giving Zionists title to part of Palestine appeared to ratify their ursupation as well flouting a fundamental principle of the UN organization itself - the imposition of a form of government against the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants. 2) On November 4, the Israelis broke the ceasefire with Hamas knowing full well that when they killed six militants in Gaza the Palestinians would retaliate.[/quote] 1) I went over this ad nosium in previous threads so I'm not going to repeat myself. On a personal level, you repulse me. 2) a. They were shooting rockets long before that. They just took a break (it's tough work, shooting rockets all the time : you have to set it up, aim carefully at a school or hospital if possible, then light it up and run like hell, before the launch is detected). b. Those guys were digging a tunnel into the sovreign state of Israel with the intent of useing it to "obtain" (apparently the board doesn't like it when I use the word "kidnap") Israeli soldiers for future use as bargaining chips. We should have just let them carry this out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 First you and other should move your arguments to another thread like the one started at the beginning of the Israeli current attack. They and Brainstorming have the connection: none. [quote name='pom-bear' post='1636335' date='Jan 3 2009, 00.09']Homat Magen occurred along time before Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians to govern Gaza.[/quote] You were talking about a cease of suicide bombing. They pretty much stopped after Homat Magen. The Hamas did very much exist at this time though not yet in total control of Gaza. So to which suicide bombing were you referring to? [quote]Israel never accepted the result of the Palestinian elections. It did support Fatah to overthrow Hamas in a military coup.[/quote] Strange how words twist to say something that is the complete opposite of truth. Hamas was never in control, it just won an election to the parliament and thought that entitled them to replacing the government with their own men. Since election of Presidents and parliament members is separated this is problematic. They then performed a military coup and took over Gaza. Hence why they rule there. [quote]I wouldn't call Gaza a state in any sense of the word it's more like the world's largest ghetto or as some have termed it an open air prison.[/quote] Gaza unlike your hypothetical prison is self ruled. By its own people. They control internal policy and external policy of Gaza. Sounds like a state to me even if they decided to make war on their neighbors. [quote]On November 4, the Israelis broke the ceasefire with Hamas knowing full well that when they killed six militants in Gaza the Palestinians would retaliate.[/quote] They were already shooting rockets from Gaza before Israel destroyed a tunnel on the border that was dug in order to kidnap Israeli. [quote]This IDF intelligence makes no mention of any blanket order issued over Arab radio stations or through other means to Palestinians to evacuate their homes & villages. If their had been it would be documented.[/quote] I'm not an expert historian, for all I know it was talked about in the media, but did any of these radio stations belong to the Palestinian leaders? This order to leave their homes was given by the Palestinian leadership, not by Egyptian or any of the other Arab neighbors so they would use the means available to them. Also how many of the Palestinians had radios in their homes? If not many (which I think is the case) than radio would not have been the means to send this message. Finally, when you fight a war, you need to surprise your enemies, not broadcast your strategy on the open waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Dinsdale!' post='1636362' date='Jan 2 2009, 18.37']It just seems like a one way path to war.[/quote] The status quo you mean. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='snake' post='1636369' date='Jan 2 2009, 17.43']The status quo you mean. ;)[/quote] I don't think you appreciate the capacity for events to go from bad to worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Dinsdale!' post='1636387' date='Jan 2 2009, 19.05']I don't think you appreciate the capacity for events to go from bad to worse.[/quote] Different degrees of severity but generally the situation never changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1636344' date='Jan 3 2009, 00.20']I always like to know a few things about people I'm discoursing with. So, pom-bear, where are from? What are your hobbies? Do you now or have you ever had any affilation to "Islamic Charities"?[/quote] Did you pack on your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1636715' date='Jan 3 2009, 15.48']Did you pack on your own?[/quote] :lol: People who have never been in an Israeli airport will never get this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hnv Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 [quote name='Datepalm' post='1636715' date='Jan 3 2009, 08.48']Did you pack on your own?[/quote] I don't advice anyoen to be a smart ass a friend of mine back in highschool when we went to poland answered the question with: "I gave my arab gardner from jenin Rafiq to pack my bag" the secruity didn't find it funny :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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