Samalander Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1637541' date='Jan 4 2009, 21.27']It's funny though, you keep acting like we haven't seen something like this before. This is just an occupation scenario and you need to treat it the same.[/quote] It's like you read everything I write, and it just flows right out of your head. What fucking "occupation scenario" are you talking about? We were out of Gaza before they started shooting (Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in...) and we will get the hell out once we show them the error of their ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637536' date='Jan 4 2009, 20.22']That argument would hold more ground if these harmless attacks were actually worth being upset about in the first place.[/quote] I call bullshit. They actually did kill and injure a number of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khaleesi Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 How do we measure collateral damage? 15 Israelis, 500 or so Palestinians. who can weigh human lives in the balance? why are some supposedly more or less important than others? every life lost is a tragedy. My solution to the problem - go back to Madrid/ Oslo accord 1, and the US favour both Israel and the Palestinians equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Prisoner' post='1637553' date='Jan 4 2009, 20.42']....Wait, haven't 15 Israeli civilians (at least) been killed by these rockets? Ah, fuck them right? Don't worry, you had it right the first time. :thumbsup:[/quote] Just to clarify, by 'harmless' I mean harmless compared to the Israeli response. There's more than a 1,000 missiles causing 15 deaths. Compare that to a single strike by an Israeli F-16. This is just another example of the Israeli "head for a tooth" approach to the conflict. Someone throws a rock at you, the response is fire at them with a gun. Someone throws a grenade, the answer - a Hellfire missile. The death of Israeli civilians are unfortunate, but I don't see why 15 dead Israelis is worse than a few hundred Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637623' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.02']Just to clarify, by 'harmless' I mean harmless compared to the Israeli response.[/quote] Do you think rape is harmless in comparison to murder? That's certainly not a very elegant way to use the word "harmless" regardless of what you meant. [quote]There's more than a 1,000 missiles causing 15 deaths. Compare that to a single strike by an Israeli F-16. This is just another example of the Israeli "head for a tooth" approach to the conflict. Someone throws a rock at you, the response is fire at them with a gun. Someone throws a grenade, the answer - a Hellfire missile. The death of Israeli civilians are unfortunate, but I don't see why 15 dead Israelis is worse than a few hundred Palestinians.[/quote] How do you think Israel should have answered? I don't like seeing so many Palestinian deads either, but I honestly don't know what alternative Israel does have (at this point). Grit their teeth and let missiles keep endangering more and more people (until... what? The Hamas get tired of it?)? Only bomb enough to kill ten people as well (to what purpose? Do you think that would have discouraged the people throwing rockets?) Immediately make concessions to whatever the Hamas is asking? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637623' date='Jan 4 2009, 16.02']Just to clarify, by 'harmless' I mean harmless compared to the Israeli response. There's more than a 1,000 missiles causing 15 deaths. Compare that to a single strike by an Israeli F-16. This is just another example of the Israeli "head for a tooth" approach to the conflict. Someone throws a rock at you, the response is fire at them with a gun. Someone throws a grenade, the answer - a Hellfire missile.[/quote] Your statement is idiotic. This is not some numbers game "They killed 15 of ours, lets kill 15 of them." Fuck proportionally, it has no place in this discussion. Each side has different goals. Hamas's goal is to solely kill civilians by targeting population centers. Israel's goal is to prevent Hamas from doing so. If it was proportionate, Israel would just kill 15 Palestinian civilians outright in an attack and be done with it. Instead, they are using targeted missiles to take down Hamas in one of the most densely populated regions in the world. And I have read civilian casualties range from 15% to 25%. [quote]The death of Israeli civilians are unfortunate, but [s]I don't see why[/s] 15 dead Israelis is [s]worse[/s] better than a few hundred Palestinians.[/quote] Fixed that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sToNED_CAT Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1637495' date='Jan 4 2009, 13.50']Um ... What? That's EXACTLY what's happening this time. It's just like Lebanon again. Israel rolls in, blows shit up, Hamas will help the locals pick up the pieces and suddenly they are MORE popular then before.[/quote] Actually today it looks like Israel was much more sucessfull in Lebanon than many people thought. Certainly Hezbollah seems to be afraid to start firing rockets on Israel now, although they have great oportunity for propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Prisoner' post='1637635' date='Jan 4 2009, 23.17']And I have read civilian casualties range from 15% to 25%.[/quote] Which is pretty gosh darned good. You think the US army or the Russian army get stats like that? They wish (if they cared about stuff like this...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637623' date='Jan 4 2009, 23.02']This is just another example of the Israeli "head for a tooth" approach to the conflict. Someone throws a rock at you, the response is fire at them with a gun. Someone throws a grenade, the answer - a Hellfire missile.[/quote] "They put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue". Sean Connery on the subject of fighting crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Etrangere' post='1637631' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.13']Do you think rape is harmless in comparison to murder? That's certainly not a very elegant way to use the word "harmless" regardless of what you meant.[/quote] Point taken. [quote name='Etrangere' post='1637631' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.13']How do you think Israel should have answered? I don't like seeing so many Palestinian deads either, but I honestly don't know what alternative Israel does have (at this point). Grit their teeth and let missiles keep endangering more and more people (until... what? The Hamas get tired of it?)? Only bomb enough to kill ten people as well (to what purpose? Do you think that would have discouraged the people throwing rockets?) Immediately make concessions to whatever the Hamas is asking? What?[/quote] The blockade of Gaza was certainly not the way to solve it. By increasing the suffering of the people of Gaza, all they achieve is strengthening support for Hamas. If they want a stop to violence, they have to make life liveable for the people in Gaza and the West Bank (and no mistake, even following the pull-out from Gaza, Israel still had full control of who and what went in and out of Gaza). As long as all their measures have been aimed at physically protecting Israelis while targeting Palestinians, they won't get anywhere. As for gritting their teeth, at least they have bomb shelters and places to hide from the missiles - a luxury not afforded to the people of Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1637644' date='Jan 4 2009, 16.25']"They put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue". Sean Connery on the subject of fighting crime.[/quote] Except he's only talking about Chicago there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637645' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.26']The blockade of Gaza was certainly not the way to solve it. By increasing the suffering of the people of Gaza, all they achieve is strengthening support for Hamas.[/quote] Point taken. [quote]If they want a stop to violence, they have to make life liveable for the people in Gaza and the West Bank (and no mistake, even following the pull-out from Gaza, Israel still had full control of who and what went in and out of Gaza).[/quote] If their control were that great, they would be able to stop those weapons from coming in. [quote]As long as all their measures have been aimed at physically protecting Israelis while targeting Palestinians, they won't get anywhere.[/quote] Perhaps. [quote]As for gritting their teeth, at least they have bomb shelters and places to hide from the missiles - a luxury not afforded to the people of Gaza.[/quote] So you do think that's what they should have done? Disregard entirely their responsibility as the government elected by Israeli to protect their inhabitant, just relying on bomb shelters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1637644' date='Jan 4 2009, 16.25']"They put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue". Sean Connery on the subject of fighting crime.[/quote] Ah, I love the sweet smell of [i]justice[/i] in the morning. It smells like ... hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [mod] Please keep this discussion civil. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Xray the Enforcer' post='1637661' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.44'][mod] Please keep this discussion civil. [/mod][/quote] I think it's the first time mods erased one of my comment... should I celebrate? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Etrangere' post='1637649' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.32']If their control were that great, they would be able to stop those weapons from coming in.[/quote] The control is great enough to prevent bulk imports of stuff. Some minor smuggling is hard to totally prevent. It's easier to smuggle in what's necessary to build one of these missiles, than a few 100 kg of consumer products or medicines. [quote name='Etrangere' post='1637649' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.32']So you do think that's what they should have done? Disregard entirely their responsibility as the government elected by Israeli to protect their inhabitant, just relying on bomb shelters?[/quote] Building bomb shelters is a way to protect their inhabitants, so is improving the warning systems. Another way to protect their inhabitants is to do something to stop the conflict. Using the old testament as a guideline for how to treat you neighbours will get you nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1637668' date='Jan 4 2009, 22.57']Building bomb shelters is a way to protect their inhabitants, so is improving the warning systems. Another way to protect their inhabitants is to do something to stop the conflict.[/quote] That's fair. [quote]Using the old testament as a guideline for how to treat you neighbours will get you nowhere.[/quote] That's not. (and shows a remarkable ignorance of the Thalion Law and what it's about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khaleesi Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Another way to protect inhabitants is comply with UN security council 242. And get rid of illegal settlements. And stop killing so many Palestinian civilians. BTW - in which universe is civilian casualties of 15 - 25% "pretty gosh darn good" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Etrangere' post='1637670' date='Jan 5 2009, 00.01']That's fair.[/quote] No, it isn't. We can't just turtle ourselves to oblivion. Nobody deserves to live like this. More bunkers, more safe rooms, more underground shelters... Who can live this? I have a room with a two inch steel door and a window with steel shutters. All new buildings in Israel are required to have them. Some countries have hurricanes, and we have rocket attacks, is that the way of it? We should just get used to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='The Khaleesi' post='1637673' date='Jan 4 2009, 17.05']BTW - in which universe is civilian casualties of 15 - 25% "pretty gosh darn good" ?[/quote] Israel is fighting against an enemy that lives among the civilian population in one of the most densely populated region in the world, and Hamas does not wear a uniform. Hamas sets up weapon caches and bases near hospitals, mosques, and other population centers. To go to war with such a force in such a place and have such a low civilian casualty rate is an accomplishment. It is not a "good thing" but it is unavoidable. ETA: That is what pisses me off about people equating the Israeli military with Hamas. It is bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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