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Werthead

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

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George say this, and George say that... Who cares? I know of certain things he have said that hasn't come true...

Seriously though, I totally figured they were of Valyrian descent since I read about those (haunting)purple eyes.

But there you go again, it is a risk of colossal magnitude to claim that a child has any specific parent whatsoever since the child can look just about any way, and how...

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Its probably already been dissected and analyzed but i started thinking about pregnancy... It lasts a long time right? So if Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegarr she must have been away from Robert a long time.
Away from Winterfell for a long time. Even if we suppose she waited untill belly really started to show - that would be about three months, right? and had a premature birth at seventh month that means 4 months of being away from sight of Robert.

Did anyone try to check timeline and where she was during pregnancy based on this?

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If Lyanna gave birth around the time that Ned found her at the Tower of Joy, shortly after the war ended with the Sack of Kings Landing and Aerys' murder, it's not likely that Robert was the father. He would have had to impregnate her after she disappeared, and it's odd to think that he would have found her, had sex with her, and just left her in the Tower of Joy without telling Ned, his best friend and Lyanna's brother, where she was.

It's generally assumed, I think, that if she had a baby the father was Rhaegar.

We know that Ned found her near the Dornish mountains in the Tower of Joy. We don't know how long she had been there or where she had been before. To the best of my knowledge, after she disappeared from the north (which caused her brother Brandon to gather his squires and ride to Kings Landing to challenge Rhaegar to a duel), we don't know where she was until Ned found her in the Tower of Joy.

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I didnt mean to say Robert was the father. Thats obviously not true.

I mean to say that she had to be out of sight of anyone who knew her in order to keep pregnancy secret - for a long time.

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Shewoman.

Now I am being a bit lazy(so I won't check this with the book itself), but when I bought "A Game Of Thrones" in 1997(time flies when you are having fun), I got the distinct impression that the forthcoming series would last for two more books. I am pretty sure I directly or indirectly got that impression from the author. Also I have some vague recollection of predictions about when certain books would come out, and if there would be a five year-gap or not.

Still, I was making a joke, since George's word is , of course, law(regarding the contents and their meaning of the books of ASOIAF).

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[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1657732' date='Jan 22 2009, 01.51']I mean to say that she had to be out of sight of anyone who knew her in order to keep pregnancy secret - for a long time.[/quote]

I think its generally accepted that she was out of sight of pretty much everyone during the entire duration of the war.

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She was abducted by Rhaegar, and if she had been with Robert, I'm wiling to bet they would have rode after him to catch and stop him, without waiting to petition from the king first. So, there was probably ample time away from each other, even before the war broke out. We also don't know when she was taken to the ToJ, and she could have been there for the duration of the war, with only the three Kingsguard and Rhaegar for company. (And maybe Wylla, for added intrigue. After all, I doubt the Kingsguard and Rhaegar are competent in assisting in child birthing.)

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It seems to be the general assumption in Westeros that she ran away with or was abducted by Rhaegar. As far as I know there's no reason to think she was taken from Kings Landing, but we don't actually know that either of those options is true.

Wylla would have been at the ToJ in order to nurse a baby, if one happened along (and, perhaps, to help with delivery. She must have had a child herself at some point). If Rhaegar was ever at the ToJ, he wasn't there all the time. He left to fight at least once.

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Hey, I never said Rhaegar was there the entire time, did I? Only that he visited from time to time. That still qualifies as out of sight, and I retracted the Kings Landing bit. We don't know where she was "abducted", could have been from KL, could have been from anywhere. Hell, she could have been in Starfall, visiting and talking with Ashara about her brother, Eddard, for all we know.

And, is it ever said that the three kingsguard and Lyanna were the [b]only[/b] ones at the ToJ?

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Ned's men were there as well. In Ned's memory of finding Lyanna and seeing her die, he remembers that Lyanna cried "Promise me," in a room that smelled of blood and roses . . .She smiled when he agreed. He was apparently the only one there at that point. Howland and at least one other person later found him holding her body. (GoT, American edition, pp. 43-4).

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Yes, obviously the men accompanying Eddard Stark were there. What I meant was, did Eddard discover anyone at the ToJ besides the three kingsguard and Lyanna?

And no, I fail to see how his memory of Lyanna proves the only two people in the room were Eddard and Lyanna. All that memory tells us is the room smelled of roses and blood. And that Lyanna made him promise something. It does not say it was an empty room. There could have been another person there, either someone unnamed or Howland Reed. Not to mention, it's a tower. There could have very easily been someone else in a different room or floor of the tower, and they were just not present in the room as Lyanna died. I know that, if I was in the care of a baby, I would have taken him to another room so that he wouldn't see his mother die.

Not saying that there is 100% someone else there, just that there's a possibility, unless someone knows of a point in the books where it explicitly says otherwise. Or if Martin himself said otherwise.

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We don't know that a baby was ever in that room. Howland and someone else found Ned holding Lyanna's body. No one else is mentioned. If there was someone else there, I'd think that Ned, who seems later to be quite concerned to keep people from knowing Jon's parentage, would have tried to stop "someone else" from talking about what he or she might have seen or deduced. Certainly no one in the books that I'm aware of has surfaced to offer a suggestion as to Jon's parentage except Edric Dayne (whose information comes from his Aunt Allyria), and Catelyn (who asked Ned if Ashara was Jon's mother and was so frightened by his response that she never raised the issue again).

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[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1658439' date='Jan 22 2009, 14.23']Yes, obviously the men accompanying Eddard Stark were there. What I meant was, did Eddard discover anyone at the ToJ besides the three kingsguard and Lyanna?[/quote]

The one clue we have that there were others in the ToJ comes from Ned's first chapter:

[i]Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. [b]They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. [/b]The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.[/i]

"[b]They [/b]had found him" suggests at least two people were there. Howland Reed alone is insufficient for the plural pronoun. This makes me think there were others there. Of course, it makes no claim as to who "they" were, but that doesn't stop us from speculating. A wet nurse and midwife/maester would make sense, but, again, there is no evidence for anyone particular. As Shewomen says, we don't even know if the Lyanna is currently in the location where Jon was (theoretically) born (though it would certainly makes sense if she was.).

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[quote name='Shewoman' post='1658618' date='Jan 22 2009, 15.46']We don't know that a baby was ever in that room. Howland and someone else found Ned holding Lyanna's body. No one else is mentioned. If there was someone else there, I'd think that Ned, who seems later to be quite concerned to keep people from knowing Jon's parentage, would have tried to stop "someone else" from talking about what he or she might have seen or deduced. Certainly no one in the books that I'm aware of has surfaced to offer a suggestion as to Jon's parentage except Edric Dayne (whose information comes from his Aunt Allyria), and Catelyn (who asked Ned if Ashara was Jon's mother and was so frightened by his response that she never raised the issue again.[/quote]

I didn't say a large number of people, did I? But if there was someone, such as perhaps Wylla...ohshi, she's already in on it isn't she, since she's claiming to be Jon's mother? So is Howland.

Just because GRRM hasn't said for a fact there were more people in the ToJ other than Eddard, Lyanna, and Howland, doesn't mean there weren't. And Eddard, when he's remembering Lyanna's last moments...well, he's going to be remembering Lyanna. Not how Howland was standing, or that there was someone in the next room, or even the dead bodies of the Kingsguard outside. Or any wounds he or Howland had sustained from battling the Kingsguard. His focus is on Lyanna only, and that's what we see.

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Yes, Wylla does seem to be involved in the situation. Howland has not made any claims about Jon. But I do have to disagree with one thing: I think that, given Ned's concern for Jon and worry over what may happen to him, he would remember who, if anyone, might know what passed between him and Lyanna discussed before she died and how they might act on any information they might have. That conversation utterly changed his life.

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Lets get back to pregnancy.

Lyanna must have been away from Roberts sight or he would have gone berserk immediately upon seeing or finding out she is pregnant.
She should have been out of the sight of her family too but apparently wasnt up until shortly before the "abduction".

War started shortly after that, correct?
Therefore she had to be pregnant long before that and yet no one reported it to her family or Robert.

If Rhaegar was the father it was not a rape. Therefore he had no reason of abducting her.

Doesnt add up.


-edit-
no matter, i see its discussed in promise thread at length.

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Jaquen, your timeline is a little confuddled I think.

-Lyanna goes missing, reportedly taken by Rhaegar.
-(short time passes, a couple weeks probably)
-Brandon goes to KL to call Rhaegar out on this. Is captured and held ransom.
-Lord Stark goes to get him, is also Captured, later they're both killed along with a couple other well-esteemed lords and heirs.
-(short time passes)
-War breaks out lead by Robert who is claiming the throne based on being a second cousin or whatever since the king is obviously unfit to rule and Rhaegar is the douche who kidnapped his girl.
(nearly a year passes)
-Kings landing is sacked, king is killed. War is essentially over.
-The siege of Storms End is ended. War is officially over.
-Ned goes to ToJ to get Lyanna after learning of her whereabouts from someone.

Lyanna was away from her friends and family for at least, and more likely more than, a year. She could have become pregnant at any time after the war starts up to about halfway into it and still been able to bare a viable child shortly before Ned gets there.

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[quote name='Piper' post='1658636' date='Jan 23 2009, 11.09']The one clue we have that there were others in the ToJ comes from Ned's first chapter:

[i]Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. [b]They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. [/b]The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.[/i]

"[b]They [/b]had found him" suggests at least two people were there. Howland Reed alone is insufficient for the plural pronoun. This makes me think there were others there. Of course, it makes no claim as to who "they" were, but that doesn't stop us from speculating. A wet nurse and midwife/maester would make sense, but, again, there is no evidence for anyone particular. As Shewomen says, we don't even know if the Lyanna is currently in the location where Jon was (theoretically) born (though it would certainly makes sense if she was.).[/quote]

It also makes no claims as to whether the "theys" other than Howland ever made it out of the room alive. The "theys" might have been slaughtered out of grief, or as a caluculated move to keep knowledge of the baby limited to as few living people as possible.

And that is how Ned's secret re Lyanna (whether it be Jon or not) will come to light: someone (Mel?)will hold a seance and speak to one of the "theys" from beyond the veil.

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