Three Mounts for Daenerys

[StarkMyrmidon]

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1661561' date='Jan 25 2009, 01.52']...And Dany will soon employ one nasty dwarf as her counter espionage expert.

I think Victarion will succeed in kidnapping one of the dragons for a short time but nothing much more.
And he does have that nice fleet with him.

I think dread could mean going to meet Others actually. But nothing prevents us having a bit of Bolton roast along the way.[/quote]
I didn't think anything could possibly get me more excited to read the Danaerys chapters in ADwD, but your theory has done it. As to your discussion with Tom O'Sevens regarding whose forces would more likely outwit their opponent (Iron Fleet vs. Dany's Crew), you both make good points. I think it most likely that a betrayal of Dany by one of those you mentioned will occur and casue some sort of temporary setback for Dany ... but in the long run I agree with you, JH, that it will be Dany who "mounts" / comes to Westeros in command, not as one being commanded.

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1661561' date='Jan 25 2009, 01.52']I think you very well might be right. the introduction of Darkstar was very sudden and heavy handed. I always wondered why George chose to introduce him in such a manner that clearly speaks "Im important" but i didnt pay attention to descriptions.

I think there is one more posibility here...
Jon and Darkstar could have been just switched after birth to muddle the tracks more.
So Jon is actually a Dayne - new sword of the morning, and not Targ at all.
I think i would actually like that even more.[/quote]
I need to read AFfC again -- I missed the heavy-handedness of the introduction of Darkstar, but agree that such an intro does portend future significance in the series. I look forward to Blauer Dragon's responses to this thread ... R+L theorizing for him to hate, and "Jon's a Dayne" for him to love ... Blauer Dragon, you're in for quite a Monday of posting. :)

As to the possibility of Theon being the one at the prow of a ship in Dany's fleet ... I [b]like [/b]the idea. I just can't see how Theon (given where he starts in his first ADwD chapter) would end up sailing east with Victarion. Though on the other hand, if karma is to strictly apply, it would be most fitting if Dany, bored on a long boat trip, used Theon for her pleasure in the same way that Theon once used a ship captain's daughter -- and in a similarly peremptory and insouciant fashion. ;)

[Edward the Great]

[quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1661207' date='Jan 24 2009, 17.20']3) Darkstar and Jon are twins. Eddard and Ashara split them up so that if one was caught the other would still be safe. Eddard took the one with dark coloring North because he was less likely to draw suspicion, Ashara faked her death and took Gerold into hiding to raise as a cousin of the Daynes.[/quote]

This make sense. I don't buy that Ashara's suicide was faked, but Jon and Darkstar are twins would be a cool idea. On the other hand, the notion that Jon is not half Stark is some of the most retarded speculation I've seen on these boards.

[General_Lee]

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1661953' date='Jan 25 2009, 21.06']blablablablablabla blabla blablablabla
[b]
Unless! unless they use that horn to take control of dragons for a short wile and blackmail her into submitting.[/b]

Of course then they are in a whole different sea of problems that they see as less as you, presuming she is just a silly little girl that has everything handed to her.
Result - faces melting, eyes running down the noses, screaming, burning hair - the lot.

I bet they believe its enough just to blow the horn once and it has a permanent effect on Dragons who just listen to every word they say from then on. With their mother close by. Oooh yeaahh....
:idea: :thumbsup:

blabla[/quote]

Well, sorry for the 'blabla' part but that's just how it sounds to me. I just don't see the point in comparing Ironborn to Unsullied. We haven't seen them fight each other yet, but the unsullied die just like other men. What matters here is numbers, but forget about that anyway because it won't come to a fight. Maybe you don't like the thought of Victarion blowing that fancy magical horn of his but that's exactly how it's gonna end. I mean, he's probably not going to blow it because Dany is smart enough not to challenge oldschool Valyrian magic. I actually think they're going to make a deal... one that Dany is not going to like but that she has to agree to. Maybe Euron is to sit the Iron Throne and Dany gets her share of the pie... I don't know.

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1661953' date='Jan 25 2009, 21.06']Theon lost his nice smile, dont you know?
Euron on the other hand has not and he does smile a lot.[/quote]

[b]!!Carefull spoilers ADWD!![/b]

Well things that are lost can be found. I mean, Theon IS ironborn after all. I don't think he's gonna be a broken servant of Bolton forever. He has yet a big part to play, I know it. He's the rightful heir of Balon after all...
I mean, Euron does smile every now and then but it was [b]the[/b] typical feature of Theon throughout the whole series. I bet 10$ it's Theon!

[ohmahgaw]

[quote name='Cersei's #1 Fan' post='1661931' date='Jan 25 2009, 14.35']You can find incest disgusting but that's not the point. Not everyone finds it so and a lot of readers can separate what they find acceptable in a fantasy world from the real world. In the real world murder in almost all situations is wrong but in a fantasy world without the laws and order then right and wrong becomes more muddled. And I don't know what you know about Jon that would gives you impression that he'd be find it weird. So far I haven't heard his opinion on it.

I personally have no problem with Jaime/Cersei in the book except that the fact that there is little actual love left between them. Next you'll be trying to tell me I can't support any homosexual pairings because you find them gross too. Please don't try to force your values on me.[/quote]


i consider myself to be very liberal, and i would never want to force my values on anyone, especially in respect to homosexuality (which i very much so support).
yes i am biased because i have siblings, and i could never fathom why anyone would want to shack up with their own family. and, yes because i am a double major one of which is biology, i recognize that there are implications outside of social phobia, that make incest, while not morally wrong in many aspects, naturally 'unsafe.'
i know that martins world is fantasy, and i know that in the real world, everyone is the product of incest, and i know many royal, and non royal families have practiced this.
its not even a moral case i am trying to make, and im not trying to attach a societal view of incest that can be applied to this world to the martin world, but i DO recall people in the books condemning incest....like cersei/jaime
and that they simply overlooked the targs, if i am not mistaken.
i am somewhat disquieted however, at the number of people who think i am narrow minded for having a problem with incest.....do you people have siblings? would YOU find it acceptable to shack up with your own family member? i dont know, sorry for ranting, because i know thats not what this topic is really about. in my state, you can marry your first cousin, and just because it is legal, it is still considered incest, so its not about laws necessarily. just because in some places, it is acceptable, doesnt mean people dont label it as incest. incest isnt itself a negative term, just something that has an attached stigma to it.

[ohmahgaw]

[quote name='Cersei's #1 Fan' post='1661931' date='Jan 25 2009, 14.35']You can find incest disgusting but that's not the point. Not everyone finds it so and a lot of readers can separate what they find acceptable in a fantasy world from the real world. In the real world murder in almost all situations is wrong but in a fantasy world without the laws and order then right and wrong becomes more muddled. And I don't know what you know about Jon that would gives you impression that he'd be find it weird. So far I haven't heard his opinion on it.

I personally have no problem with Jaime/Cersei in the book except that the fact that there is little actual love left between them. Next you'll be trying to tell me I can't support any homosexual pairings because you find them gross too. Please don't try to force your values on me.[/quote]


i consider myself to be very liberal, and i would never want to force my values on anyone, especially in respect to homosexuality (which i very much so support).
yes i am biased because i have siblings, and i could never fathom why anyone would want to shack up with their own family. and, yes because i am a double major one of which is biology, i recognize that there are implications outside of social phobia, that make incest, while not morally wrong in many aspects, naturally 'unsafe.'
i know that martins world is fantasy, and i know that in the real world, everyone is the product of incest, and i know many royal, and non royal families have practiced this.
its not even a moral case i am trying to make, and im not trying to attach a societal view of incest that can be applied to this world to the martin world, but i DO recall people in the books condemning incest....like cersei/jaime
and that they simply overlooked the targs, if i am not mistaken.
i am somewhat disquieted however, at the number of people who think i am narrow minded for having a problem with incest.....do you people have siblings? would YOU find it acceptable to shack up with your own family member? i dont know, sorry for ranting, because i know thats not what this topic is really about. in my state, you can marry your first cousin, and just because it is legal, it is still considered incest, so its not about laws necessarily. just because in some places, it is acceptable, doesnt mean people dont label it as incest. incest isnt itself a negative term, just something that has an attached stigma to it.

[Trystane]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1662073' date='Jan 25 2009, 18.07']

SPOILER: [b]!!Carefull spoilers ADWD!![/b]

Well things that are lost can be found. I mean, Theon IS ironborn after all. I don't think he's gonna be a broken servant of Bolton forever. He has yet a big part to play, I know it. He's the rightful heir of Balon after all...
I mean, Euron does smile every now and then but it was [b]the[/b] typical feature of Theon throughout the whole series. I bet $10 it's Theon!

[/quote]

That's how you're supposed to do a spoiler post. Here's an example from a mod on how to use spoiler text.

[quote name='Xray the Enforcer']For reference, use the following text tags (just remember to remove all the extra spaces between the tags and the square brackets):

[ spoiler=Topic of Discussion ] Here be spoilers [/ spoiler ]

What you will see is:

SPOILER: Topic of Discussion

Here be spoilers

[/quote]

Nothing against you General Lee, I just figured I should show you how to use spoiler text.

[israfel070]

[quote name='iheartseverus' post='1661842' date='Jan 25 2009, 09.53']I'm wondering what everybody here thinks of General Lee's suggestion that the smiling grey corpse at the helm is NOT VIctarian--but Theon! I love this theory--who do we know who smiles all the time, who also happens to be an ambitious treacherous turn-cloak. And, if Theon's not 'grey' yet after Ramsay's treatment of him, perhaps at some point, Uncle Damphair will drown him and bring him back, which should 'grey' him up nicely. So, Dany presumably a prisoner or captive on an Ironborn ship with captain Theon at the helm? What say you all?[/quote]
I like it, but Victarion is already on his way to the eastern continent, while SPOILER CHAPTER:: Theon is in the North being flayed alive in a Bolton cell.

I think the second parts of the House of the Undying prophecies (including the smiling corpse man) will be taking place in DwD; it was originally going to be the second book out of three. That doesn't leave Theon much time to escape, heal from his wounds, and hightail it to the eastern continent to pull such a heist.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='ohmahgaw' post='1662113' date='Jan 25 2009, 19.01']i am somewhat disquieted however, at the number of people who think i am narrow minded for having a problem with incest.....do you people have siblings? would YOU find it acceptable to shack up with your own family member? i dont know, sorry for ranting, because i know thats not what this topic is really about. in my state, you can marry your first cousin, and just because it is legal, it is still considered incest, so its not about laws necessarily. just because in some places, it is acceptable, doesnt mean people dont label it as incest. incest isnt itself a negative term, just something that has an attached stigma to it.[/quote]

I have no problem with you having a problem with it honestly. You are wrong though that incest is pre-defined. It is not. It is a legal term so from different countries and places the meaning is varied. Some States and Countries have a different definition of what is considered incest. You personally might still consider it such in you own beliefs but the law does not always label it as such. I have no problem with first cousins marrying I've known a few but brother and sisters I generally do but I honestly don't care if someone else does it. I might not approve of such a couple but I'd not lose any sleep worry about it either. My own point is you seemed to be shocked that not everyone automatically shares your opinion on the subject, or separates their fictional world/real world beliefs or even care what other people do in private.

There is a bit of hypocrisy in the book about how people treat Jaime/Cersei vice the Targs. The Seven Kingdoms own beliefs are that it a crime but the Targs are from Valyria and don't consider themselves subject to those same standards. Whether right or wrong it has become an accepted standard for them. Story-wise them turning out to be related is a plus for a possible relationship. It ties them together like Aegon and his sisters.

[The SmilingKnight]

[quote]I need to read AFfC again -- I missed the heavy-handedness of the introduction of Darkstar, but agree that such an intro does portend future significance in the series.[/quote]
Well, maybe heavy handedness isnt the right term but it he just appeared and started saying his "I am of the night bla, blah, blah" and prince Doran calling him most dangerous man in the world or something...
I was just "Hey Hootah, quick, kick him in the gonads!"
But he already rode away... bastard.

[quote]I think it most likely that a betrayal of Dany by one of those you mentioned will occur and casue some sort of temporary setback for Dany[/quote]
I dont doubt it will be a bloody massacre on the whole and greatest threat Dany has faced since dragons were born.

[quote]Well, sorry for the 'blabla' part but that's just how it sounds to me. I just don't see the point in comparing Ironborn to Unsullied. We haven't seen them fight each other yet, but the unsullied die just like other men.[/quote]
Even if i put my arguments in a little bit humorous style i talked about factual differences between Ironborn and Unsullied.

Unsullied die just like anyone else thats true. But in combat their ability not to feel any pain or fear is a great advantage that completely nullifies Ironborn greatest advantage. Their ferocity, cruelness and fear they instill in their opponents.
Unsullied simply wouldnt care and would continue to fight no matter how wounded or butchered they are individually. Which in turn instills fear into any opponent that they fight.
And each of them is an expert fighter too that did nothing else but train and fight all their lives.

As a fighting force that makes them better than any other in Songs and with the right commander that wont use them just as meat shield and send them to slaughter blindly they can beat any other force, basically.

Ironborn would have the advantage only if they fought them on sea - which is impossible.

Why not compare them to each other? We know enough about each to make reasonable guesses if we have the ability to consider the matter objectively.

If you just want to refuse to listen to facts because of your personall prejudice against Dany or whatever then thats your problem.
One that would make you unfit to lead any battle or war, usually, or be direct cause why you would loose each.

[quote]Maybe you don't like the thought of Victarion blowing that fancy magical horn of his but that's exactly how it's gonna end.[/quote]
Why would you think i dont like that idea?
Thats how its going to end and i said so.

Ironborn just cannot fight in the open. it was never their style. They are raiders that attack swiftly, suddenly and usually against an opponent thats much weaker then they are.
Considering that Dany is surrounded by thousands of Unsullied and even more thousands of people who consider her their mother and simply go berserk if anyone tries to kill her there is no possibility to lead an open attack against her.

Victarion and the crew can only hope to get close to her by treachery and use the horn.


[quote]I bet 10$ it's Theon![/quote]
Ill take that bet.


[quote]if Dany, bored on a long boat trip, used Theon for her pleasure[/quote]
Please, Dany has taste.

[i]
Oh and apologies for that spoiler, i did it first not General Lee.[/i]

[General_Lee]

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1662395' date='Jan 26 2009, 08.34']Even if i put my arguments in a little bit humorous style i talked about factual differences between Ironborn and Unsullied.

Unsullied die just like anyone else thats true. But in combat their ability not to feel any pain or fear is a great advantage that completely nullifies Ironborn greatest advantage. Their ferocity, cruelness and fear they instill in their opponents.
Unsullied simply wouldnt care and would continue to fight no matter how wounded or butchered they are individually. Which in turn instills fear into any opponent that they fight.
And each of them is an expert fighter too that did nothing else but train and fight all their lives.

As a fighting force that makes them better than any other in Songs and with the right commander that wont use them just as meat shield and send them to slaughter blindly they can beat any other force, basically.

Ironborn would have the advantage only if they fought them on sea - which is impossible.

Why not compare them to each other? We know enough about each to make reasonable guesses if we have the ability to consider the matter objectively.

If you just want to refuse to listen to facts because of your personall prejudice against Dany or whatever then thats your problem.
One that would make you unfit to lead any battle or war, usually, or be direct cause why you would loose each.[/quote]
Okay, we probably have a misunderstanding here (and it's most likely my fault, sorry). I never doubted that the Ironborn would be hard pressed to defeat Danys Forces if they met them in equal numbers. What I was trying to say is that we will never see an Ironborn army facing an unsullied army.
I don't think that Vicatrion will take a great force with him. Maybe a score of ships, but not more. They don't want to [i]fight[/i] Dany, they want to ally with her (or threaten her with the horn if she doesn't agree).

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1662395' date='Jan 26 2009, 08.34']Why would you think i dont like that idea?
Thats how its going to end and i said so.[/quote]

Well, again sorry. Your post sounded to me like you [b]don't[/b] think that it's gonna be as easy as "hey, we have a horn to control your dragons, so you better do as we say". I think it will be like that.

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1662395' date='Jan 26 2009, 08.34']Ironborn just cannot fight in the open. it was never their style. They are raiders that attack swiftly, suddenly and usually against an opponent thats much weaker then they are.
Considering that Dany is surrounded by thousands of Unsullied and even more thousands of people who consider her their mother and simply go berserk if anyone tries to kill her there is no possibility to lead an open attack against her.

Victarion and the crew can only hope to get close to her by treachery and use the horn.[/quote]
We totally agree on that one ;)

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1662395' date='Jan 26 2009, 08.34']Ill take that bet.[/quote]
Good, I'll gladly sent to 10$ (or I'll make it 10 Euros since I don't have $ ;) ) if Theon ends up as Boltons little pet and Eurons the smiling one to meet Dany.
[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1662395' date='Jan 26 2009, 08.34']Please, Dany has taste.[/quote]
you sure about that? She's got a big thing for that sellsword captain... do you call that taste?

Well, I'm not gonna use spoiler tags because Theon's POV in ADWD has been mentioned a hundred times in this thread before I made my post so a
[b]'!!careful spoilers adwd!!'[/b] should be enough:

[quote]I like it, but Victarion is already on his way to the eastern continent, while SPOILER CHAPTER:: Theon is in the North being flayed alive in a Bolton cell.[/quote]

Well, maybe Vicatrion is on his way, but much and more can happen before he reaches and wins Dany! Maybe we'll have roasted Victarion as an aperitive in aDwD and only the seven know what will happen to Theon in the future.

[panther]

Ok, back to the topic. I'll simply summarize other posts and reinforce with my thoughts. Great post #46 by israfel070 lays it out very well, I think. I think this theory that the sections of prophecy are related seems the most plausible. The only place I differ is that I agree with a couple of others here and think the mounts may well be literally mounts ridden to something, not men.

So the mount ridden to bed is her silver, as suggested previously. Silver takes her to her 'bedding' with Drogo, starting a very important chapter in her life, the beginning of her self-confidence and leadership, an the chapter in which the other #1s happen, Mirri Maz Dur's blood treason, and the fire lit for the life of her dragons.

The next mount is most likely a dragon, probably Drogon, but again I'd say she was riding TO dread, not on dread (although it could certainly be both). Dread is the destination, so I agree with others that she is riding a dragon into war. In this sense I agree with Jaquen Hgharr that a good guess would be that she's riding a dragon to meet the others (into dread). This is another important chapter in her life. I think we can all guess that at some point dragons will meet others. The fire for death, then, could also make sense in this context. Wights and Others are destroyed by fire. What better way to clear a town of them? Lots of fires will be lit for death, I imagine. Betrayal for gold? Could be anyone or anything at this point. Lots of people like gold. It could be Jorah, who would love to have money and respect back, or anyone else who's in her 'army'.

Love? This is the hardest since it will come last (if order matters). What mount will she ride on her way to love? Who knows at this point? Another horse? A motorcycle? a ship? Hodor? Fire lit for love? Maybe she gets married and lits a unity candle at the ceremony. Betrayal for love? Maybe someone close to her is jealous that she married someone else and tries to get rid of her husband so he can have her for himself. Jorah/Jon/Tyrion/probably others. Or, in a truly romantic tragedy, she and Jon fall in love and marry, but the great Other still survives and comes after them. Dany plans to meet the Other on a dragon, but because he loves her, fears for her life and wants to save her from death, Jon locks her up and goes to face the other himself. In the battle, both die and Dany is left without her love. The end. (Sorry to ruin the end of the series for you all.)

Although I think the mounts are literal, they could be both literal and figurative. So, in summary:
Dany's life chapter #1: The Beginning: The Drogo Years
Mount ridden to bed: Silver (and Drogo)
Fire lit for life: Dragon birth (and Drogo lighting a fire in her - lust for life, reason for life)
Treason for blood: Mirri

Dany's life chapter #2: The War
Mount ridden to dread: One of the dragons (riding dread to dread. Who knows, maybe Euron or something involved too.)
Fire lit for life: War
Treason for gold: anyone

Dany's life chapter #3: Settling down: Love of her life
Mount ridden to love: ? (Mammoth?)
Fire lit for love: ? (unity candle?)
Treason for love: ? Jon disobeys her plans and orders, takes on the Others himself and dies.

[The SmilingKnight]

[quote]Your post sounded to me like you don't think that it's gonna be as easy as "hey, we have a horn to control your dragons, so you better do as we say". I think it will be like that.[/quote]
The problem is not getting killed while doing it and not getting killed little later on.
The horn is not really user friendly... and since its best used by those who can withstand extreme heat... it might be just the thing Dany needs to control her dragons better.

[quote]Good, I'll gladly sent to 10$ (or I'll make it 10 Euros since I don't have $ wink.gif ) if Theon ends up as Boltons little pet and Eurons the smiling one to meet Dany.[/quote]
The bet was just that theon wont be the one. No other conditions. :cool:


[quote]you sure about that? She's got a big thing for that sellsword captain... do you call that taste?[/quote]
Compared to Theon - yes. Generally - no, according to my own tastes.
Anyway she didnt do anything yet with him and i hope she doesnt and its just a phase every girl must go through.


[quote]The only place I differ is that I agree with a couple of others here and think the mounts may well be literally mounts ridden to something, not men.[/quote]
i dont think so... i think those mounts are different characters she will ride (use) to get to dread and love.

[israfel070]

Mount to Dread... Dany riding an Other's ice spider!

[General_Lee]

[quote]The bet was just that theon wont be the one. No other conditions. cool4.gif[/quote]

Fair enough :smoking:

[StarkMyrmidon]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1662521' date='Jan 26 2009, 08.26'][quote]if Dany, bored on a long boat trip, used Theon for her pleasure[/quote]
[quote]Please, Dany has taste.[/quote]
you sure about that? She's got a big thing for that sellsword captain... do you call that taste?
[/quote]
That's what I'm talking about. Dany does seem to have ... [i]eclectic [/i] is the most forgiving word that comes to mind ... tastes in her various fantasies. And in that game where someone names two people and you have to pick which one you'd rather "do," I'd pick Theon over the sellsword captain any day.

[iheartseverus]

[quote name='StarkMyrmidon' post='1665130' date='Jan 28 2009, 03.40']in that game where someone names two people and you have to pick which one you'd rather "do," I'd pick Theon over the sellsword captain any day.[/quote]

Ahem. Remembering that in the prophecy the man at the wheel of the ship is a 'smiling grey corpse'...UnTheon? eep. Bring on the sellsword captain, dude!

*a girl shudders*

[General_Lee]

I'd be happy to see her end up as a Lesbian, maybe with one of the Sand Snakes :thumbsup:
Okay I'm sick *lol*

[StarkMyrmidon]

[quote name='iheartseverus' post='1665144' date='Jan 28 2009, 03.54']Ahem. Remembering that in the prophecy the man at the wheel of the ship is a 'smiling grey corpse'...UnTheon? eep. Bring on the sellsword captain, dude!
*a girl shudders*[/quote]
To clarify, I was referring to the pre-spoiler (pre-spoiled?) version of Theon. Not saying that he has a great personality or anything, just that I might not throw him out of bed, especially if he were down there ... taking care of business.

iheartseverus, you of all people should know that I wouldn't go for a zombie. You know from my posts about a certain poster that Loras and Rhaegar are much more to my liking. ;)

And General_Lee, that doesn't make you sick. It just makes you male. :cool:

[israfel070]

I like Victarion as the sadly-smiling corpse captain, with his pallor either signifying his death or his religious conversion to the Drowned God/"baptism".