Theory about the Tower of Joy...

[TDH523]

Why would that not be true. He is a male. Males think about sex ever 10 seconds. Rhaegar is human as far as I can tell. He sees Lyanna wants a piece then falls in love. Just because he does not visit brothels does mean he does not think of having sex with Lyanna. Plus as in this broad Ned is only expressing his opinion. In the quote Ned only thinks Rhaegar did not visit brothels. But he does not really know for sure. A IMO opinion I don't Rhaegar would have visited a brothel either. But we just don't know. Once again males, yes I am a male, think with their Johnson and not their bairns. That's how we get into trouble.

[TDH523]

SFDanny

First having been in the military I know "pissing and groaning" when I hear it. I know that's not important but it does go to Jamie's desire for combat. Once again not on point. I'm not a believer that Hightower was sent to TOJ to get him out of the way. I feel that Rhaegar wanted him guarding Lyanna. That's it.

I still feel Lyanna is a replace for Elia. She almost died two times she gave birth so the odds are not in her favor. Is it possible that Rhaegar felt Elia may die giving birth and sees Lyanna as her replacement? Personally I feel her is in love with Lyanna and not Elia. Once again I don't buy the theory that he raped her.

[bacchys]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1714424' date='Mar 9 2009, 23.42']I should also say that many others have raised the possibility that Hightower's orders sending him to the Tower of Joy maybe part of getting him out of the way for these larger changes to be made - meaning Hightower might have been an obstacle to those changes, specifically if Rhaegar means to remove Aerys. I'm not sure I agree with this because Rhaegar has a legally acceptable way to remove the king through the calling of a Great Council. Or at least it would appear so. Perhaps he doesn't have the authority to call such a Council, but we do know that the Council can set aside a claimant to the throne on the grounds of mental instability. I would have to know more of the details of the process before I'd agree that Hightower would necessarily object.[/quote]
I think it more than likely that Rhaegar has the ability to call a Great Council and either set Aerys aside or craft a new precedent and simply strip him of his power but not his crown.

He's the Crown Prince, and he's obviously high up in the King's councils and esteem. High enough that Aerys wants/expects Rhaegar to lead the royal forces in putting down the Rebellion.

Perhaps, also, Rhaegar has some ability to control Aerys. He's nuttier than a fruitcake, we know, but none of his more crazed acts of which we are aware come with Rhaegar close at hand. Something or someone brought him out of the Red Keep for the first time in years (since Duskendale?) to attend the Harrenhal tourney. While any such influence would probably not be enough to get Aerys to step aside or allow for a regency of sorts (indeed, a direct approach would probably backfire given his paranoia), it might well allow for Rhaegar to either be appointed Hand or to have a Hand willing to due his bidding (Connington, perhaps?). Given the Hand's place in the government of the Seven Kingdoms, he has to have the authority to convene a Great Council. So if Rhaegar can't do it of his own authority, he can probably cause it happen.

His words to Jaime certainly lead one to believe he had every confidence he could make whatever changes he had in mind. There's not "I'm going to try" sentiment there, and the little we know of Rhaegar does not suggest a man given to false bravado.


[quote]Here I think we disagree. I do think Rhaegar has fallen in love with Lyanna. There is just too much in the text that points to this being the case. With the Targaryen practice of polygamy, however, I don't think Rhaegar has the need to set aside Elia. The vision Daenerys has of Rhaegar with Elia and the baby Aegon suggests to me that, on top of the many references to Elia's poor health, that Prince and Princess have an understanding. I think any trouble in this regard would come from Elia's brothers, not from Elia. That is my take upon it anyway; other point of views can certainly be argued.[/quote]
I certainly think Rhaegar could/would latch onto a polygamous arrangement even if the "modern" reality of Westeros means even the Targaryens can't get away with it anymore. They haven't had a polygamous marriage (that we now of) in several generations, and it's possible that it wouldn't be acceptable to the population of Westeros anymore. But that doesn't mean Rhaegar would be aware of that, and the option is certainly there in his family history.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1714424' date='Mar 9 2009, 22.42']I should also say that many others have raised the possibility that Hightower's orders sending him to the Tower of Joy maybe part of getting him out of the way for these larger changes to be made - meaning Hightower might have been an obstacle to those changes, specifically if Rhaegar means to remove Aerys. I'm not sure I agree with this because Rhaegar has a legally acceptable way to remove the king through the calling of a Great Council. Or at least it would appear so. Perhaps he doesn't have the authority to call such a Council, but we do know that the Council can set aside a claimant to the throne on the grounds of mental instability. I would have to know more of the details of the process before I'd agree that Hightower would necessarily object.[/quote]
while I don't know the details of Great Council calling authority either, obviously, Hightower possibly objecting to such is not the only factor. Would paranoid [i]Aerys[/i] object? I think we can be extremely confident that he would. That being the case, if gave Hightower a direct order to kill or imprison Rhaegar, would Hightower do so? The evidence that we've seen so far is that Hightower took a fairly absolutist approach to king's orders; KG should [i]obey[/i] them. He did try to talk Aerys into sending him back to the Red Keep so Jaime could participate in the Harrenhal tourney, but he acceded to the king's will nonetheless. The younger KG may or may not have been more pliant than him, but for Rhaegar to call the great Council would have been a delicate task, and I'd be astonished if Aerys didn't view it as treason.

[The Boar of Gore]

[quote name='TDH523' post='1714449' date='Mar 9 2009, 23.05']Once again I don't buy the theory that he raped her.[/quote]

Neither do I. We only have Robert's word that he did and Robert was not reasonable on the subject of Targaryens. Everything else we know about Rhaegar points to him being an exceptional, and very moral, person.

[SerShakey]

Well, I don't know if that has been brought forward before (well, I'm sure it's been), anyway.

I just watched israfel070's animation of the Tower of Joy scene and I was wondering if it might be possible that the Kingsguard did loose the fight because they had orders not to harm Eddard Stark.

We all know that the three Kingsguard at the ToJ were three of the best fighters in all of Westeros. Well, Eddard and his friends may have been good and seasoned fighters, but not as extraordinarly skilled as their three oponents.

Another thing that bothers me is that only Ned and Howland Reed survive the fight.

I mean, why them and not 2 others? And wouldn't the Kingsguard try to kill Ned first? After all, he and his kin are one of the main reasons for Robert's rebellion and one of the first great Houses to rise against King Aerys so why not kill the worst enemy first?

I assume that's because they had orders not to harm Eddard. Rhaegar loved Lyanna, of that I'm sure and maybe he didn't want to hurt her by killing her brother. And maybe he knew that if he fell on the Trident and the royalists lost, Eddard would be the only one to keep their child (or children ;) ) save.

We know the Kingsguard was faithfull to the last back then, even if it meant their deaths. That might as well explain why Arthur Dayne says "Now it begins". He knows that Rhaegar is dead and they have to start with plan B.

What do you say?

Thank you for asking this question. You now have 10 pages of dialogue on this subject, which underscores what is likely to be a pivotal revelation in the series (regarding what appears to be, for me anyhow, the lineage of Jon Snow and him possibly being one of the heads of the 3-headed dragon prophecy by the Undying to Daenerys at Qarth [although I am less certain on this point than I am on Jon Snow being not a bastard of Ned's, but the heir or Rhaegar and Lyanna]). Regardless, it's a great mystery for the reader and reminds me of another (Dark) Tower enigma in another great fantasy series (although hopefully GRRM will not make us wait until the very end of this series to reveal why Eddard and the crannogman survived Ser Dayne ;)

[Reposado]

I keep seeing people talking about why The White Bull and others were sent to the TOJ. This strikes me as odd, as I never imagined that they were sent there. They accompanied Rhaegar there. We are told that he was out of most the war, clearly because he was with Lyanna at the TOJ. When he left to join the war, he told the Kingsguard to remain there.

I realize this is a fairly minor point into discussing the why of it, but it drives me nuts when I see someone say they were sent there. They were left there.

[Cydal]

Even so. The way that I see it, He was a Targaryen who is described as having become "obsessed" with the prophecy and trying to bring it about. Once you add the word "obsessed" to someone who has a well establish genetic pre-disposition for going absolutely bat-shit crazy (with or without warning signs), then you have a clear picture of someone that may act completely contrary to their prior established self.

This would explain why a man who was so heroic, honorable, and revered could have done something so despicable and not cared that it plunged the entire empire kingdom into civil war. The human side of his persona (the regret and guilt that was overpowered by his insanity) probably guided him to try and appease his victim by showering her with the pretty blue flowers that she liked. Maybe that will make her stop crying. Maybe that will make her understand that I have to do this. Maybe a few more flowers? That's not working! Why isn't it working? Maybe some lemon cakes? Why won't she just stop crying? She liked those flowers so much at Summerhall. Doesn't she see that I didn't want to hurt her? I didn't want to force her. I had to! The Dragon Must have three heads. I had to! Three Heads has the Dragon.

Hey, So 2 years and a book later, Do you still think Rhaegar was a fiend?

[Lionbane]

Here's my theory of how the fight played out.

Ser Arthur Dayne: And now it begins.

Ned: No. Now it ends.

Dayne shouts a battle cry and charges towards Ned. Ser Mark Ryswell cuts between them and trades a few blows with Dayne. Dayne slays Ryswell. Ned and Dayne begin a one-on-one duel.

Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, and Theo Wull charge towards Lord Commander Gerold Hightower and duel three-on-one.

Lord Willam Dustin and Howland Reed duel Ser Oswell Whent two-on-one.

Hightower sustains early injuries but manages to slay Glover. Later, Hightower runs his sword through Wull's chest. A split second later, Cassel runs his sword through Hightower's chest. The corpses of Hightower and Wull fall to the ground.

Across the battlefield, Whent swings his sword in a swift sideways semi-arc that knocks Reed to the ground and makes Dustin stumble backwards. Whent slays Dustin before he can regain his balance. Cassel charges at Whent from behind and cuts off his sword arm. Whent falls to his knees, and Cassel cuts off his head.

Meanwhile, Dayne has gained the upper hand in the duel against Ned. Dayne makes a deadly downward slash. Ned parries but the force of the blow knocks him on his back. As Dayne prepares for the killing blow, Cassel comes charging from the side. Dayne turns around and pivots, causing Cassel's killing strike to miss. Dayne slays Cassel. Dayne turns back towards Ned, who is still on the ground, Ice lying a few yards away.

Suddenly, Reed shoots Dayne with a poisoned arrow. Ned gets up and retrieves Ice. Knowing it's the end, Dayne says his final words. Ned beheads Dayne with Ice.

[Arya's a boss]

This last sentence is my main problem with your theory. It leaves out that Ned and his friends, although they may not have been as accomplished fighters as the Kingsguard, outnumbered them by better than 2-to-1 odds! That is a considerable advantage that can't be lightly dismissed. One would expect Ned and company to win, even over highly skilled opponents with those kind of odds. As such there is no need to explain the loss by the Kingsguard by any orders to hold back when it came to fighting Ned. What is amazing is that so many of Ned's men die in this encounter, not that the Kingsguard lose the fight. That testifies to some level of skill advantage, or luck, on the part of the Kingsguard, not a holding back. Secondly, we don't know that all of the ToJ Kingsguard are among the "best fighters in all of Westeros." We know from other accounts that Ser Arthur Dayne is considered such, but we have only the fact that the other two are extremely seasoned, experienced fighters with an unknown level of skill with arms at this point. Don't get me wrong, I would bet they were highly skilled fighters - the outcome of the battle would tend to support that, but I don't think we can make the assumption that they were all that much better than Ned and his friends. What really sets the three Kingsguard apart is a long history of service that has made people think of them as the epitome of what it means to be honorable knights.

Ned's men are all bannermen and sworn swords that would fight to keep him alive, as others have pointed out. It's not a question of the Kingsguard just being able to pick out who they want to kill first so the fact that Ned and Howland are still alive tells us next to nothing about the Kingsguard's strategy in this fight.

This is an amazing assumption. I don't argue that Rhaegar may well have not wanted to kill any of Lyanna's relatives, but the idea that he therefore made the decision that if he died at the Trident, if he could foresee his forces being routed after his death, and furthermore that if he could foresee his father and his wife and children dying and the entire collapse of the loyalist forces, he then would work out that Ned was the most likely person to keep his child safe is a truly amazing set of assumptions. Rhaegar very likely did take precautions for Lyanna. He did hide her away in an obscure tower, and he seems to have assigned three members of the kingsguard to safeguard her, and possibly her child, there. It doesn't follow that he gave orders to not kill Ned if he was the one who found them.

I say a much better explanation is that the Kingsguard were fulfilling their vow to safeguard the heir to the throne. They die at the Tower of Joy, not holding back in a battle they would rather not fight with Lyanna's brother, but fight with everything they have against overwhelming odds - almost winning the battle - and sacrificing their lives to keep their vows. Remember in Ned's dream it is the Kingsguard that begins this battle, not Ned or his men. They tell us why they are there - because they swore an oath. It is Ned who seems reluctant to fight. It is Ned who holds back and asks them why they are there. It is Ned who has the motive to not fight - all he wants is his sister and if the Kingsguard will step aside he seems quite willing to take her and go. It is Ned who reluctantly says, "no, now it ends."

I agree with what you say. Just because they were KG doesn't mean they were phenomenally more skilled than Ned and his men. I'm guessing that there weren't many people who would've picked Robert over Rhaegar at the battle of the trident but he smashed Rhaegar. So I don't think we should assume that Arthur Dayne was unbeatable, although Ned states that he is the best knight he'd ever seen.