Theory about the Tower of Joy...

[General_Lee]

Well, I don't know if that has been brought forward before (well, I'm sure it's been), anyway.
I just watched israfel070's animation of the Tower of Joy scene and I was wondering if it might be possible that the Kingsguard did loose the fight because they had orders not to harm Eddard Stark.
We all know that the three Kingsguard at the ToJ were three of the best fighters in all of Westeros. Well, Eddard and his friends may have been good and seasoned fighters, but not as extraordinarly skilled as their three oponents.
Another thing that bothers me is that only Ned and Howland Reed survive the fight.
I mean, why them and not 2 others? And wouldn't the Kingsguard try to kill Ned first? After all, he and his kin are one of the main reasons for Robert's rebellion and one of the first great Houses to rise against King Aerys so why not kill the worst enemy first?
I assume that's because they had orders not to harm Eddard. Rhaegar loved Lyanna, of that I'm sure and maybe he didn't want to hurt her by killing her brother. And maybe he knew that if he fell on the Trident and the royalists lost, Eddard would be the only one to keep their child (or children ;) ) save.
We know the Kingsguard was faithfull to the last back then, even if it meant their deaths. That might as well explain why Arthur Dayne says "Now it begins". He knows that Rhaegar is dead and they have to start with plan B.
What do you say?

[Ser Hot Pie]

Don't forget that Ned was the Lord of the six men that accompanied him. Presumably they were invested in keeping him protected. If the intent was not to harm Ned, why fight at all?

[General_Lee]

[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1697865' date='Feb 24 2009, 15.27']Don't forget that Ned was the Lord of the six men that accompanied him. Presumably they were invested in keeping him protected. If the intent was not to harm Ned, why fight at all?[/quote]
Well, they swore to protect Lyanna, so they fight the men that try to invade the Tower, but they were also ordered not to kill Eddard Stark, so they don't harm him ... and hence get killed.
I think that would be pretty cool and the Kingsguard would appear even more elite :thumbsup:

[Winter Crow]

Quite an interresting theory you've got there Lee.
But if they had vowed to keep Lyanna, and her possible child(ren), safe, then why not just abbandon the ToJ and seek refuge at a castle with a Maester? I know that Lyanna (maybe) was about to give birth, yet they could still have moved her before that (possibly as soon as Rhaegar died). Then, after the child was delivered, and Lyanna might have survived, then they could escape to the Free Cities with the child (and possibly her as well). I know that "The Kingsguard does not flee", but since their mission would be to protect Lyanna and make sure Ned didn't die, then this would only be a tactical retreat, until the child is of age or something like that.

[Shewoman]

We know that Howland Reed did something that enabled Ned to survive Arthur Dayne. It's been suggested that perhaps he warged into Arthur (but we don't really know what actually happened). But if it was something greenseerish like that, Arthur probably had not encountered it before and would not be prepared to deal with it. Reed's action underscores Ser Hot Pie's point that Ned's men would be trying to protect their lord.

If you're suggesting that Rhaegar told the KG not to kill Ned, I find that a little hard to buy. Ned was one of Robert's generals and the war itself wasn't near the Tower of Joy. Rhaegar would know that General Stark wouldn't be likely to abandon his duty on the field to go to (or near) Dorne. The odds of Ned showing up there unless someone told him where Lyanna was weren't good.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1697857' date='Feb 24 2009, 09.18']Well, I don't know if that has been brought forward before (well, I'm sure it's been), anyway.
I just watched israfel070's animation of the Tower of Joy scene and I was wondering if it might be possible that the Kingsguard did loose the fight because they had orders not to harm Eddard Stark.
We all know that the three Kingsguard at the ToJ were three of the best fighters in all of Westeros. Well, Eddard and his friends may have been good and seasoned fighters, but not as extraordinarly skilled as their three oponents.[/quote]
This last sentence is my main problem with your theory. It leaves out that Ned and his friends, although they may not have been as accomplished fighters as the Kingsguard, [b]outnumbered them by better than 2-to-1 odds![/b] That is a considerable advantage that can't be lightly dismissed. One would expect Ned and company to win, even over highly skilled opponents with those kind of odds. As such there is no need to explain the loss by the Kingsguard by any orders to hold back when it came to fighting Ned. What is amazing is that so many of Ned's men die in this encounter, not that the Kingsguard lose the fight. That testifies to some level of skill advantage, or luck, on the part of the Kingsguard, not a holding back. Secondly, we don't know that all of the ToJ Kingsguard are among the "best fighters in all of Westeros." We know from other accounts that Ser Arthur Dayne is considered such, but we have only the fact that the other two are extremely seasoned, experienced fighters with an unknown level of skill with arms at this point. Don't get me wrong, I would bet they were highly skilled fighters - the outcome of the battle would tend to support that, but I don't think we can make the assumption that they were all that much better than Ned and his friends. What really sets the three Kingsguard apart is a long history of service that has made people think of them as the epitome of what it means to be honorable knights.

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1697857' date='Feb 24 2009, 09.18']Another thing that bothers me is that only Ned and Howland Reed survive the fight.
I mean, why them and not 2 others? And wouldn't the Kingsguard try to kill Ned first? After all, he and his kin are one of the main reasons for Robert's rebellion and one of the first great Houses to rise against King Aerys so why not kill the worst enemy first?[/quote]
Ned's men are all bannermen and sworn swords that would fight to keep him alive, as others have pointed out. It's not a question of the Kingsguard just being able to pick out who they want to kill first so the fact that Ned and Howland are still alive tells us next to nothing about the Kingsguard's strategy in this fight.

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1697857' date='Feb 24 2009, 09.18']I assume that's because they had orders not to harm Eddard. Rhaegar loved Lyanna, of that I'm sure and maybe he didn't want to hurt her by killing her brother. And maybe he knew that if he fell on the Trident and the royalists lost, Eddard would be the only one to keep their child (or children ;) ) save.[/quote]
This is an amazing assumption. I don't argue that Rhaegar may well have not wanted to kill any of Lyanna's relatives, but the idea that he therefore made the decision that if he died at the Trident, if he could foresee his forces being routed after his death, and furthermore that if he could foresee his father and his wife and children dying and the entire collapse of the loyalist forces, he then would work out that Ned was the most likely person to keep his child safe is a truly amazing set of assumptions. Rhaegar very likely did take precautions for Lyanna. He did hide her away in an obscure tower, and he seems to have assigned three members of the kingsguard to safeguard her, and possibly her child, there. It doesn't follow that he gave orders to not kill Ned if he was the one who found them.
[quote name='General_Lee' post='1697857' date='Feb 24 2009, 09.18']We know the Kingsguard was faithfull to the last back then, even if it meant their deaths. That might as well explain why Arthur Dayne says "Now it begins". He knows that Rhaegar is dead and they have to start with plan B.
What do you say?[/quote]
I say a much better explanation is that the Kingsguard were fulfilling their vow to safeguard the heir to the throne. They die at the Tower of Joy, not holding back in a battle they would rather not fight with Lyanna's brother, but fight with everything they have against overwhelming odds - almost winning the battle - and sacrificing their lives to keep their vows. Remember in Ned's dream it is the Kingsguard that begins this battle, not Ned or his men. They tell us why they are there - because they swore an oath. It is Ned who seems reluctant to fight. It is Ned who holds back and asks them why they are there. It is Ned who has the motive to not fight - all he wants is his sister and if the Kingsguard will step aside he seems quite willing to take her and go. It is Ned who reluctantly says, "no, now it ends."

[Onion Knight]

Nah. if Rhaegar really cared about her family he would intervened and stop his crazy father from klling brandon and his father.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Onion Knight' post='1698149' date='Feb 24 2009, 14.15']Nah. if Rhaegar really cared about her family he would intervened and stop his crazy father from klling brandon and his father.[/quote]
Of course Rhaegar isn't in King's Landing when Brandon comes calling for him to come out and fight, and he is in a location unknown to his father when Aerys wants Rhaegar to take over for Lord Merryweather, so it is quite possible Rhaegar knows nothing about Aerys' actions with Brandon and Rickard - at least on a timely basis whereby he could try to intervene. All of which means, it is likely that whether Rhaegar cared, or didn't care, about Brandon and Rickard's fate, he couldn't do much of anything to stop it.

[The_Black_Fish]

Hey this reminds me of a question I had. Who ever told Ned where to find his sister? Does it ever say anything about that in the books?

[General_Lee]

[quote]This is an amazing assumption. I don't argue that Rhaegar may well have not wanted to kill any of Lyanna's relatives, but the idea that he therefore made the decision that if he died at the Trident, if he could foresee his forces being routed after his death, and furthermore that if he could foresee his father and his wife and children dying and the entire collapse of the loyalist forces, he then would work out that Ned was the most likely person to keep his child safe is a truly amazing set of assumptions. Rhaegar very likely did take precautions for Lyanna. He did hide her away in an obscure tower, and he seems to have assigned three members of the kingsguard to safeguard her, and possibly her child, there. It doesn't follow that he gave orders to not kill Ned if he was the one who found them.[/quote]

I disagree. I think it wasn't hard for a very clever person like Rhaegar to foresee this outcome of the rebellion, or at least to take it under consideration.
He knew he would face a mighty host of angry Northerners and knights from the Vale, the Riverlands and the Stormlands. He had the greater numbers, sure, but still. A defeat wasn't unlikely and Rhaegar knew that.
I also think that he wasn't as naive as his father concerning the Lannisters. We also knew Rhaegar as a pessimistic person, so it wouldn't surprise me if he made those preparations before he left for war. Once the war was lost, who else would come looking for Lyanna but Ned? Robert maybe, but "his is the fury". If he saw that she had a child/children from Rhaegar he would've likely killed them.
Anyone else who may have chance upon the ToJ would also have called the Robert, the new king (just to gain his favour).
Ned was Rhaegars only chance. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it wasn't coincidence that Ned learned of the ToJ but another of Rhaegars arrangements.

[The_BlauerDragon]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I still see Rhaegar as the fiend that Robert took him for. I also don't think for an instant that any of the KG would have allowed Ned to overpower and kill them just because they were ordered not to harm him. They probably would have beaten him to a bloody pulp, maybe chopped off his hand, and then called for a maester and left it at "We did as you said, we did not kill him."... Face it, they fought for their lives and they lost.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1698006' date='Feb 24 2009, 17.31']It's been suggested that perhaps he warged into Arthur (but we don't really know what actually happened). But if it was something greenseerish like that, [...][/quote]
Just so that we get the magic system right: Howland is [i]not[/i] a greenseer. Here’s Meera’s story about the crannogman:
[quote]Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"
"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."[/quote]
Wargs and greenseers are not the same. Bran is a warg; Jojen is a greenseer. The very fact that Meera and Jojen know such a damn lot about warging [i]without either of them being a warg[/i] makes it tempting to think that Howland was a warg.

I’m sure he is at least some kind of level 20 animist, possibly levelled up through the roof after spending an entire Winter at the Isle of Faces. But I prefer to think of him as a superwarg og skills comparable to Varamyr Sixskins or half a Bran’s talent (yet with 10 times the training).

[Ser Hot Pie]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1698330' date='Feb 24 2009, 14.02']I still see Rhaegar as the fiend that Robert took him for.[/quote]
Geez, really? With everything that we've learned about both of them since the early chapters of AGOT? Even Ned (and through Ned's flashbacks Lyanna) saw serious flaws in Robert, and Ned gave a grudging nod to Rhaegar's honor. Not to mention Jorah Mormont or Barristan Selmy who obviously saw Rhaegar as an heroic individual. GRRM does a lot of misdirects, especially early on in the series, and painting Rhaegar as a vilian is one of them, one that falls apart with every revelation of his character that follows. Similarly, the more we learn of Robert, the less we are inclined to view him as honorable (he's a glutton, a drunkard, he shirks responsibility, he's blind to the depravity of those around him, he fathers bastards left and right and leaves them to whatever fate has in store, he's a wife beater, a child abuser, and vain and vengeful beyond reason).

Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1698356' date='Feb 24 2009, 13.20']Geez, really? With everything that we've learned about both of them since the early chapters of AGOT?[/quote]
Even so. The way that I see it, He was a Targaryen who is described as having become "obsessed" with the prophecy and trying to bring it about. Once you add the word "obsessed" to someone who has a well establish genetic pre-disposition for going absolutely bat-shit crazy (with or without warning signs), then you have a clear picture of someone that may act completely contrary to their prior established self.
This would explain why a man who was so heroic, honorable, and revered could have done something so despicable and not cared that it plunged the entire [s]empire[/s] kingdom into civil war. The human side of his persona (the regret and guilt that was overpowered by his insanity) probably guided him to try and appease his victim by showering her with the pretty blue flowers that she liked. [i]Maybe that will make her stop crying. Maybe that will make her understand that I have to do this. Maybe a few more flowers? That's not working! Why isn't it working? Maybe some lemon cakes? Why won't she just stop crying? She liked those flowers so much at Summerhall. Doesn't she see that I didn't want to hurt her? I didn't want to force her. I had to! The Dragon Must have three heads. I had to! Three Heads has the Dragon.[/i]

[SFDanny]

[quote name='The_Black_Fish' post='1698320' date='Feb 24 2009, 14.53']Hey this reminds me of a question I had. Who ever told Ned where to find his sister? Does it ever say anything about that in the books?[/quote]

No, lots and lots of speculation on this topic, including the who, the where, and the when of it.

[Shewoman]

The Black Fish, to the best of my knowledge we haven't been told how Ned knew to go to the ToJ.

Happy Ent, thanks for setting me straight.

[Ser Hot Pie]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1698411' date='Feb 24 2009, 15.05']Even so. The way that I see it, He was a Targaryen who is described as having become "obsessed" with the prophecy and trying to bring it about. Once you add the word "obsessed" to someone who has a well establish genetic pre-disposition for going absolutely bat-shit crazy (with or without warning signs), then you have a clear picture of someone that may act completely contrary to their prior established self.
This would explain why a man who was so heroic, honorable, and revered could have done something so despicable and not cared that it plunged the entire [s]empire[/s] kingdom into civil war. The human side of his persona (the regret and guilt that was overpowered by his insanity) probably guided him to try and appease his victim by showering her with the pretty blue flowers that she liked. [i]Maybe that will make her stop crying. Maybe that will make her understand that I have to do this. Maybe a few more flowers? That's not working! Why isn't it working? Maybe some lemon cakes? Why won't she just stop crying? She liked those flowers so much at Summerhall. Doesn't she see that I didn't want to hurt her? I didn't want to force her. I had to! The Dragon Must have three heads. I had to! Three Heads has the Dragon.[/i][/quote]
All right. I don't see things the way that you do, but your analysis of the situation is not without merit. I will say that until GRRM himself sets the record straight, I hold to my own interpretation of the prose, but allow for alterante distillations.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1698493' date='Feb 24 2009, 15.11']All right. I don't see things the way that you do, but your analysis of the situation is not without merit. [b]I will say that until GRRM himself sets the record straight, I hold to my own interpretation of the prose, but allow for alterante distillations.[/b][/quote]
That is all I have ever asked of anyone here, and that is why they call it a [i]Theory[/i]. I can certainly respect your difference of opinion. :cheers:

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

[quote name='The_Black_Fish' post='1698320' date='Feb 24 2009, 12.53']Hey this reminds me of a question I had. Who ever told Ned where to find his sister? Does it ever say anything about that in the books?[/quote]

My little pet theory is that Ashara told Ned where to find Lyanna. I haven't considered the when and where too much, but she has a positive connection/relationship with several of the parties involved: Ned & Arthur, obviously, but also Rhaegar through both Elia and Arthur. Wylla could also be connected to Ashara through Starfall, but that may be inconsequential here. If Ashara was the one then it might also help to explain her suicide (if it really happened) because by telling Ned where to find Lyanna she also helped to bring about her own brother's death. That might have been something she felt she couldn't live with.

[bacchys]

I don't find the notion that the KG didn't want to harm Eddard or were ordered to not harm him. Rhaegar believes in destiny, so I think it unlikely he would have considered losing to Robert and Eddard once he brought them to battle.

I'd echo SFDanny: the better than 2 to 1 odds in the Northmen's favour in this fight is sufficient reason for them to have won. That only two survived is a testament to the fighting skills of the KG. By the time of the fight at the TOJ, the Northmen aren't tyros. They're combat veterans.

I don't particularly care for the "Howland warged" theory, either. A simpler theory, and one I think more in keeping with this mostly low magic world of GRRM's, is Howland used a net to entangle Dayne and give Eddard the opportunity to deliver a mortal blow. From the descriptions we have of the Crannogmen, a spear and a net are tools he was probably quite familiar with.