Theory about the Tower of Joy...

[Shewoman]

Israfel, I LOVE your post #56 above.

[israfel070]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1700871' date='Feb 26 2009, 06.59']Israfel, I LOVE your post #56 above.[/quote]
LOL, I'm here to please!

[quote]Why were marriages (Lysa's and Jon Arryn's as well as Ned's and Cat's) considered necessary to confirm their opposition to Aerys?[/quote]
It was a standard form of insurance against backstabbing/wimping out by both parties. The Tullys got the better end of the deal, since they are a normal House having babies with a Great House. This marriage in particular though, had already been planned (with Brandon instead of with Ned) before the war broke out, so it wasn't really a confirmation in the same way that you're thinking. It was just the Tullys saying, "Ok Ned, we've got your back, but first pay up on that marriage bargain and consummate it before you risk getting killed in the war." If he had died, the Tullys might have inherited Winterfell (EDIT: Sorry, it's been confirmed by George that Benjen joined the NW AFTER Ned's return to Winterfell from the war. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell!) since Lyanna was also out of the picture by the end.

[quote]But, assuming she did commit suicide, and that her reasons involved the events at the ToJ, it seems plausible to believe that it's because she had some involvement in causing those events to occur.[/quote]
This way of arguing drives me crazy. It's like, "If you assume the basketball hoop was over THERE when he missed his shot, the Lakers would have won the 19XX NBA Championship." We have to play by the rules of evidence in the books. The evidence is that Ned went to Starfall, where Ashara was waiting and expecting her brother to return from the war with no GRRM-mentioned doubt of his survival (which would discount all knowing-betrayal-of-Arthur scenarios), and sometime after his arrival she killed herself [u]because Ned broke her heart[/u]. It's as simple as that.

This isn't a cover story perpetrated by the Daynes; in fact, that idea is exactly backwards. The publically-accepted story seems to be that she did it because Ned brought her Arthur's sword. The Ned-heartbreak version is presented by GRRM as "the real story" which contradicts the public opinion, and is told only in close confidence from a Dayne to a Stark and in Ned's private thoughts.

[Shewoman]

Thanks!

[The_BlauerDragon]

One of the key problems that I've always had with [i]the theory that shall not be named[/i] is that it assumes that Lyanna had a child. She might not have even been pregnant. The KG might have been stationed there simply on orders that no-one was going to take her alive. A rebellion started over her, Rhaegar might have wanted to make sure that if he couldn't have her, no-one could. It's possible that one of them ran her through when they saw Ned arriving (or when it became obvious that Ned was winning, or when they received a raven saying that Rhaegar was dead and they saw Ned coming, etc.) The imagery of a bed of blood in a room that smelled of blood and roses feels a little too much like a set up. Like we're being given just enough rope to hang ourselves when we jump to the most expected conclusion.

[israfel070]

Blauer, don't you think that idea is negated by the respectful way Ned talked about those three men?

Another thought I had though, was that disease victims were often surrounded with flowers to negate the bad smells that come as part of that package. Which is interesting to me, but still falls under the "then we should have heard something about it" category.

[Shewoman]

Well, "bed of blood" is a phrase that we've seen used in the series (along with "bloody bed") to refer to childbirth. This could be interpreted--but doesn't have to be--as evidence that Lyanna gave birth. On the other hand, there's Theon's dream of the Great Hall in Winterfell filled with all the dead Starks, including Lyanna in a bloody dress. This could suggest that a) she gave birth while wearing a formal or b) she died of violence.

Blauer, Does it bother you that N+A assumes that Ned and Ashara had a child? If that bothers you about R+L, why doesn't it about N+A?

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1701321' date='Feb 26 2009, 15.15']Blauer, don't you think that idea is negated by the respectful way Ned talked about those three men?[/quote]
Not in the slightest. Ned would harbor no resentment beyond their deaths. They upheld their oathes, and he would respect that.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1700635' date='Feb 26 2009, 04.18']If by “doubtless” you mean “possibly”, I’d agree. But we can assume that Howland is a magician, and we’ve textual evidence for him [i]not being a fighter[/i] (though Meera learned her weapons from him, so he can’t be completely helpless).

And since when does Arthur Dayne let himself be blindsided by an enemy? Standing up to the Sword of the Morning in hand-to-hand combat, no matter how many mediocre swordsman you have at your side, seems to be the worst thing you can do. Surprising him by magic is a much better strategy. So assuming Howland has [i]some[/i] magic (and we can be very sure of that, can’t we?), he would be better off using that. The onus of the argument is on those who believe that Howland can cast spells, yet chooses to come within a sword thrust’s distance of the greatest knight alive.[/quote]
We have evidence that he wasn't a fighter at the time of the Harrenhall tourney. By the time of the fight at the TOJ, Howland is a veteran of several battles. Moreover, the evidence seems to be more that he knew little of jousting, not fighting. In the struggle with the three squires, Howland is set upon by surprise. I don't think we can take too much from that about his skill with the weapons of his people.

Magic is a broad category, and we have no textual evidence that Howland Reed is a warg. Meera, IIRC, states that Howland knew "all the magic of his people"; such things as "breathing mud."

Finally, casting a net isn't necessarily going to put you in sword's reach of anybody, especially if the swordsman is occupied by a fellow holding a Valyrian greatsword.

The imagery I have of the end of the contest is a hopelessly outmatched Eddard using all the skill and adrenalin he has to stay alive while Arthur Dayne pounds at him with Dawn. Then Howland's net entangles Dawn and Eddard is able to land a mortal blow.

[Rinso]

Even a quick backstab would have done the job, there is no reason to speculate about magic spells and throwing nets.

[kadvael]

Lyanna was Eddard's sister and Robert loved her, she was a valuable hostage and maybe the kingsguard knights had orders to protect her as long as they could and the last living one should kill her. Is blood the only hint that Lyanna could have been pregnant?

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='bacchys' post='1702189' date='Feb 27 2009, 16.39']Magic is a broad category, and we have no textual evidence that Howland Reed is a warg. Meera, IIRC, states that Howland knew "all the magic of his people"; such things as "breathing mud."[/quote]
“All the magic” is quite a lot. What Jojen does, for example. Or what a green seer does, such as warging. Even so, Howland wanted more:
[quote]"The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces."[/quote]
So he has maxed out on crannogman magic, and [i]then[/i] he levels up on the Isle of Faces for a whole winter. I maintain that we have textual evidence that Howland Reed is the highest level Animist we’ve read about so far. Maybe Sixskins is as good, maybe Bran will be better.

You may not [i]like[/i] that, because it’s standards magicky fantasy, and you may prefer a story where nobody has such skills. But the text is very much compatible with such a reading.

And if you accept that, like I do, the assumption that he used magic against Arthur is the most parsimonious. From there, it’s again very parsimonious to assume that he uses a magical skill that we have already seen in action, so we know it’s part of the metaphysical make-up.

I readily admit that if you [i]don’t[/i] like the idea that Howland is magical, it is more plausible to assume that he used weapons. It’s still strange that Arthur Dayne was defeated by two fighters who are otherwise not in the least notable – indeed, one of them is notably [i]bad[/i] at fighting, and there’s a whole story about that. It’s not as if the idea to “suddenly hide yourself in the middle of the fight has started and then sneak up from behind” is a novel tactic that the Sword of the Morning has never encountered before and has no way to defend against…

[TDH523]

Howlan Reed may or mat not have used magic. I tend to think he did. My question is how did Ned react? I mean Ned is an honorable man to a fault. How would he react if Howland did use magic to gain an advantage. I know this is combat-kill or be killed. Take any advantage you can get to win. But Ned's honor got him killed and I can't see him agreeing to Howland Reed using magic. I could be wrong.

Also some people have suggested that Ned was only a good fighter. I disagree. If you go up against the KG and walk away you have to be a hell of a fighter. Even if the KG are out numbered and Howland Reed used magic. These guys unlike the KG in GOT were the best. An for Ned and Howland to walk away they had to be good. 6 to 3 would have been a hell of a fight. I wished GRRM would have written more about the fight.

I still felt that Ashara killed herself over her brothers death. I just can't see her killing herself over Ned and a broken romance. Now I can see her launching herself off the cliff after finding out she unintentionally caused her brothers death. I could see Sansa taking that dive at first, but not Ashara. But I could be wrong.

[israfel070]

How would Ned take advantage of his opponent slipping in a puddle? Killing him, I assume. Maybe a Tourney or a personal duel would be a different thing, but this was war.

[TDH523]

I didn't say he would not take advantage of the magic. He is in combat not trying to hold his hand. But his honor would make him not like doing it. But hey a combat veteran becomes a combat veteran by taking advantage of everything to survive. He would use the magic but not like.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='TDH523' post='1702810' date='Feb 28 2009, 00.13']I didn't say he would not take advantage of the magic. He is in combat not trying to hold his hand. But his honor would make him not like doing it.[/quote]
I have always liked that angle. I think Ned’s sense of honour would have forbidden him from fighting Arthur Dayne alongside a net-wielding, backstabbing Howland. Instead, Ned would have faced Arthur in a one-to-one duel, expecting to die. The only way Ned could win that is if Howland made Dayne miss a crucial parry, or slip. Ned would kill Dayne, [i]without realising[/i] in that split second that the clumsy reaction of Ser Arthur was actually Howland’s work. Only when Ned extracts his sword from Arthur’s skull does he realise that Howland just became unconscious and is bathed in sweat – then he realises that “Arthur Dayne would have killed him, if not for Howland Reed.” His victory would be bitter and without honour, though Ned didn’t do anything wrong.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1702266' date='Feb 27 2009, 11.53']It’s still strange that Arthur Dayne was defeated by two fighters who are otherwise not in the least notable – indeed, one of them is notably [i]bad[/i] at fighting, and there’s a whole story about that. It’s not as if the idea to “suddenly hide yourself in the middle of the fight has started and then sneak up from behind” is a novel tactic that the Sword of the Morning has never encountered before and has no way to defend against…[/quote]
He may not have experienced being poisoned by a Crannogman's blade before, though. Depending on the poison, Arthur might have started to slow down or get clumsy quite quickly.

[Shewoman]

Ned was a general during the war. I think he'd be quite aware that when you're fighting for your life, you use every asset you have. If you're not willing to do that, then you're not likely to survive.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1702266' date='Feb 27 2009, 12.53']“All the magic” is quite a lot. What Jojen does, for example. Or what a green seer does, such as warging. Even so, Howland wanted more:[/quote]
What Jojen does isn't part of it. From SOS pg. 279 (US):
[indent][i]Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"
"No," said Meera, "but he could breath mud and run on leaves and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."[/i][/indent]
[quote]So he has maxed out on crannogman magic, and then he levels up on the Isle of Faces for a whole winter. I maintain that we have textual evidence that Howland Reed is the highest level Animist we’ve read about so far. Maybe Sixskins is as good, maybe Bran will be better.[/quote]
I don't know of any textual evidence that Howland Reed is a warg of any ability. We have Jojen as a greenseer, and that's presented as a fairly unique skill. Meera's list of crannogman magics could be interpreted as either actual magical ability or a fancy way of describing the skills needed to survive in the crannogs of the Neck. There is no mention of what he might have learned on the Isle of Faces.
[quote]I readily admit that if you don’t like the idea that Howland is magical, it is more plausible to assume that he used weapons. It’s still strange that Arthur Dayne was defeated by two fighters who are otherwise not in the least notable – indeed, one of them is notably bad at fighting, and there’s a whole story about that. It’s not as if the idea to “suddenly hide yourself in the middle of the fight has started and then sneak up from behind” is a novel tactic that the Sword of the Morning has never encountered before and has no way to defend against…[/quote]
I like the fact that GRRM created a low magic world. He expressly called it that (contrasting it with Harry Potter) in the Law Talk interview. He compared it Tolkien's Middle-Earth, where Gandalf doesn't fix every problem facing the Fellowship with a wave of his wizard's staff. There is magic. There is obviously magic. But it's not simple to use and not the answer to every problem or conundrum.

With no direct evidence of Howland possessing any such ability, I prefer to look at the evidence there is. When the "little crannogman" sets out, he wears a bronze scaled shirt and carries a three-pronged spear and leathern shield "like mine [Meera]." She is a skilled huntress, and it's not unreasonable to consider her skill set one learned from her father.

I disagree with your assertion that we know Howland was a bad fighter. We know that he didn't know how to joust. The passage where he's set upon by the three squires reads as if he was surprised by three larger men, who were in turn surprised by Lyanna. Reed may be a crannogman, but he's still of the nobility in a world where the purpose of the nobility is to fight. That's why he's with Eddard Stark during Robert's Rebellion. As I noted earlier, Howland is the veteran of several battles by the time fight at the TOJ, and he's alive and hail. While he and Eddard are not noted in the text for their skill at arms, neither appear to have been a tyro.

Perhaps Howland did use an ability to warg or some other magical skill to distract or disable Arthur Dayne in such a way as to prevent him from killing Eddard Stark and enable Stark to land a mortal blow. But I think the context of magic in this world argues against that, and points instead to Howland using net, shield, and/or spear in a fashion which provides the same end and the same appreciation from Eddard for saving his life.

Shoot, it could even be something as seemingly simple as a well-flung stone or dirt in Dayne's eyes at the right moment.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='bacchys' post='1703913' date='Mar 1 2009, 15.43']She is a skilled huntress, and it's not unreasonable to consider her skill set one learned from her father.[/quote]
Oh, I think we [i]know[/i] she learned it from his father. She tells us directly somewhere.

[quote]Reed may be a crannogman, but he's still of the nobility in a world where the purpose of the nobility is to fight. That's why he's with Eddard Stark during Robert's Rebellion.[/quote]
You’re making that up, right? Or is there some quote I forget? As far as I can see, Howland might be with Eddard for the same reason that Mel is with Stannis, or Varamyr is with Mance.
[quote]As I noted earlier, Howland is the veteran of several battles by the time fight at the TOJ, and he's alive and hail.[/quote]
Like Mel or Varamyr, right? Or in fact, Catelyn Stark.

[quote]But I think the context of magic in this world argues against that, and points instead to Howland using net, shield, and/or spear in a fashion which provides the same end and the same appreciation from Eddard for saving his life.[/quote] What does “the context of magic” mean, here? Does it mean “disregarding what Bran or Varamyr does”? It seems that your own personal preference for a low-magic narrative, — a preference I share — makes you twist the “context” to fit your preconceptions.

But if I’ve fought you to “just as likely”, I’m content. That was my position, consistently, all the time, and I openly admitted from the start that my personal preference makes me nod towards Howland Superwarg than Howland dirty-with-a-net.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1703946' date='Mar 1 2009, 12.07']You’re making that up, right? Or is there some quote I forget? As far as I can see, Howland might be with Eddard for the same reason that Mel is with Stannis, or Varamyr is with Mance.[/quote]
Howland Reed is one of Eddard Stark's bannerman. What do you think it means when a great Lord calls his Banners?
[quote]What does “the context of magic” mean, here? Does it mean “disregarding what Bran or Varamyr does”? It seems that your own personal preference for a low-magic narrative, — a preference I share — makes you twist the “context” to fit your preconceptions.[/quote]

I explained the context, Ent. It's a low magic world. We don't see many people using magic. Melisandre and Varymyr Sixskins are quite exceptional. Given the very, very few number of people we've seen in the series using, and also given that more than a few of them didn't use it at all before the dragons were born (Thoros of Myr being one example), the context of magic in GRRM's world is that there isn't a whole lot of it. The only twisting going on here is by those adding to the text- like Howland's completely unmentioned warging ability or the equally ummentioned contention that he's a "great spellcaster"- to fit their preference.

There's nothing twisted about it. It is my view of the story. If you don't share it, fine.
[quote]But if I’ve fought you to “just as likely”, I’m content. That was my position, consistently, all the time, and I openly admitted from the start that my personal preference makes me nod towards Howland Superwarg than Howland dirty-with-a-net.[/quote]
Fought me to what? I'm going to forgo the insult here, but that means there really isn't a response. An insult is all that deserves.