Nine year old rape victim has an abortion

[Walpurgisborn]

[quote name='kungtotte' post='1713153' date='Mar 9 2009, 05.32']In light of this, I understand why the church is excommunicating this girl and all others involved in the abortion[/quote]
Everything I see, the girl is specifically not being excommunicated.

[Dancing Queen]

I'm pro-life, but I can certainly understand why the decision to abort was made. Because of the age of the young mother, it really looks like one child had to die so another could live. I do hope that her family doesn't view the abortion as the end of the "problem" here and try to act like nothing has happened. The child needs to be allowed to grieve and to recover from the rape. She also needs to be protected from the rapist in the future.

[quote name='Skyrazer' post='1713127' date='Mar 9 2009, 04.17']Where is the understanding? Where is the sympathising? Where is the forgiveness on the Church's behalf? Aren't these some of the virtues one would aspire to to become an ideal catholic? Ok so it's murder, but one murder is not the same as another and to sit there and claim that it's muder and it's all the same is terribly lacking of understanding that a catholic is supposedly supposed to hold plenty of.[/quote]

I, too, am outraged that the church is casting blame on the female victim and her mother instead of the man whose violence and selfishness brought this situation about. Excommunicating the family and separating them from their faith community, who could provide emotional support during such a trying time, just victimizes the nine-year-old child all over again.

[Shryke]

[quote name='firqorescu' post='1713215' date='Mar 9 2009, 06.42']Does the RCC habitually excommunicate all murderers? If not, then they are being incredibly hypocritical here.[/quote]

There's no indication on what the grounds for the excommunication will be, so I've got no clue what they are pushing for this time.

[quote]Hey, Shryke, if you agree with the RCC that this was a murder, then why stop at excommunication? Don't you think you should be arguing to have this girl prosecuted for first-degree homicide? If a sin is a sin, then a crime (surely) is a crime, regardless of the mitigating circumstances?[/quote]

If a sin and a crime were the same, we'd ALL be in a shit load of trouble. They are not however.

[quote name='kungtotte' post='1713241' date='Mar 9 2009, 07.50']It gets better. If you read the catechisms I linked earlier, you will see that the pro-[b]life[/b] people have no objections to capital punishment either :)[/quote]

*cough*[quote]Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."[/quote]

[Nymeria Sand]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1713384' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.29']If a sin and a crime were the same, we'd ALL be in a shit load of trouble. They are not however.[/quote]
Well, sins may be forgiven but crimes must still be punished. However, as of this minute, allowing a 9 year old rape victim to have an abortion [i]is not a crime[/i].

[Eponine]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1713384' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.29']If a sin and a crime were the same, we'd ALL be in a shit load of trouble. They are not however.[/quote]

Murder ISN'T a crime?

[IheartTesla]

I dont care with whatever irrational leaps of logic the RCC goes through to justify their decision to excommunicate those involved. But how dare they try to intervene to prevent the abortion. Pathetic. Have your silly excommunication parties later but dont fucking interfere with decisions the doctors and the mother take to save the life of the girl.

The RCC has been officially dead to me for a while now.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Nymeria Sand' post='1713393' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.35']Well, sins may be forgiven but crimes must still be punished. However, as of this minute, allowing a 9 year old rape victim to have an abortion [i]is not a crime[/i].[/quote]

And who ever said it was?

Abortion is a sin (to the RCC) but it's not a crime (thankfully) and hence question about why she shouldn't be charged with 1st Degree Murder or what have you are dumb. Should we be fining people for not going to church too now? Or should we just drop this dumb idea and admit that sins and crimes aren't the same (although there's obviously overlap)

[Nymeria Sand]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1713395' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.36']Murder ISN'T a crime?[/quote]

I guess you consider an abortion under these circumstances to be murder. I don't. Don't push your morality off on me, please. I know what I think and my opinion is based on years of dealing with these sticky situations as a health care professional and not some perverse religious (man made) view. Religious types love to act as judge, jury and executioner in situations they know nothing about, and try to get their views enacted into law; however, they never, ever stop and think about how that might affect people in the real world.

Religion (man-made) does not determine when life begins. Science, specifically biology, will make that determination. And since we're not even close to being able to say with any certainty when life begins, we can't impose a broad ban on it. We simply don't know.

Be that as it may, abortions [i]are[/i] legal; i.e., not a crime.

[MinDonner]

[quote name='Nymeria Sand' post='1713411' date='Mar 9 2009, 14.48']I guess you consider an abortion under these circumstances to be murder. I don't. Don't push your morality off on me, please. I know what I think and my opinion is based on years of dealing with these sticky situations as a health care professional and not some perverse religious (man made) view. Religious types love to act as judge, jury and executioner in situations they know nothing about, and try to get their views enacted into law; however, they never, ever stop and think about how that might affect people in the real world.

Be that as it may, abortions [i]are[/i] legal. I.e., not a crime.[/quote]

Pretty sure Eponine wasn't suggesting that abortion=murder, but others have done so on this thread - including you, Shryke, so don't go hiding behind that argument of "crimes =/= sins!"

It's not an irrelevant question. Anyone who has compared this abortion to murder, why are you not arguing for it to be prosecuted as murder?

[Shryke]

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1713415' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.52']Pretty sure Eponine wasn't suggesting that abortion=murder, but others have done so on this thread - including you, Shryke, so don't go hiding behind that argument of "crimes =/= sins!"

It's not an irrelevant question. Anyone who has compared this abortion to murder, why are you not arguing for it to be prosecuted as murder?[/quote]

Because in the eyes of the law it's not murder.

They may, however, lobby to try to make abortions illegal (ie 0 to change the laws). I think they do that anyway.

But as of right now, it's not illegal.

[Nymeria Sand]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1713409' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.47']And who ever said it was?

Abortion is a sin (to the RCC) but it's not a crime (thankfully) and hence question about why she shouldn't be charged with 1st Degree Murder or what have you are dumb. Should we be fining people for not going to church too now? Or should we just drop this dumb idea and admit that sins and crimes aren't the same (although there's obviously overlap)[/quote]
I think RCC is making that very mistake, Shryke, and they're trying to impose that on everyone. They are confusing a sin with a crime. According to them, doctors and parents are not only sinners but murderers and should be ex-communicated for doing something that they feel is wrong, but is still legal. Which takes precedence? Rhetorical question...for them the answer is "sin", but most of the rest of us think "crime."

The Catholic Church has lost so much credibility and respectability (if they ever had any) that it makes me really glad I'm not one anymore.

[Nymeria Sand]

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1713415' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.52']Pretty sure Eponine wasn't suggesting that abortion=murder, but others have done so on this thread - including you, Shryke, so don't go hiding behind that argument of "crimes =/= sins!"[/quote]
If that's not what she meant, then I apologize. That's what it sounded like, though. :)

[quote]It's not an irrelevant question. Anyone who has compared this abortion to murder, why are you not arguing for it to be prosecuted as murder?[/quote]
Here in the US some are arguing that very thing. In fact, HHS had a draft of a new document started under Bush that defines abortion as murder. This is a government agency we're talking about. They are also moving to have contraception, such as the Pill and IUD, defined as murder.

So, according to that reasoning, any woman who has taken birth control pills or has an IUD is a murderer.

Notice that there's nothing about men and condom use being described as murder, though.

[url="http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/07/15/hhs-moves-define-contraception-abortion"]http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/07...eption-abortion[/url]

[Eponine]

If you believe that abortion is murder though, shouldn't it be one of your main goals to make it also become illegal? If I honestly believed that a practice was slipping through the legal system of the country where I lived that was allowing murder to occur daily, I'd be a lot more up in arms about it than just saying- well excommunication is a good decision, but that's as far as it should be pushed.

Nym, I was NOT saying that abortion = murder, I was questioning Shrike about arguing on one hand that it's a heinous murder and then saying- oh but it isn't a crime (and apparently believing it shouldn't be a crime). So don't accuse me of pushing my morality on you, thanks.

[Walpurgisborn]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1713384' date='Mar 9 2009, 09.29']There's no indication on what the grounds for the excommunication will be, so I've got no clue what they are pushing for this time.[/quote]
Abortion is an [i]a jure[/i] excommunication, the punishment is written into the (church) law.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Nymeria Sand' post='1713431' date='Mar 9 2009, 11.01']I think RCC is making that very mistake, Shryke, and they're trying to impose that on everyone. They are confusing a sin with a crime. According to them, doctors and parents are not only sinners but murderers and should be ex-communicated for doing something that they feel is wrong, but is still legal. [b]Which takes precedence?[/b] Rhetorical question...for them the answer is "sin", but most of the rest of us think "crime."

The Catholic Church has lost so much credibility and respectability (if they ever had any) that it makes me really glad I'm not one anymore.[/quote]

"Precedence" isn't at all relevant.

If it's a sin, the RCC deals with it however the RCC deals with this sort of thing.
If it's a crime, the Government deals with it however the Government deals with this sort of thing.
If it's both, both entities deal with it however they deal with this sort of thing.

What does Precedence even mean in this case?

Or are you implying that because it's legal, the RCC is not allowed to think it's a sin.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Nymeria Sand' post='1713432' date='Mar 9 2009, 11.02']So, according to that reasoning, any woman who has taken birth control pills or has an IUD is a murderer.

Notice that there's nothing about men and condom use being described as murder, though.[/quote]

I don't know if this is the rationale or not, but my crazy fundie ex-SIL told me that birth control was murder because it could stop an already fertilized egg (= precious little human) from being implanted. Whereas with a condom, there would be no fertilization and thus no murder.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1713440' date='Mar 9 2009, 11.08']If you believe that abortion is murder though, shouldn't it be one of your main goals to make it also become illegal?[/quote]

Making it illegal is the bluntest of instruments in curbing behavior. If you believe abortions are wrong, making them illegal may in fact be the stupidest way to combat the problem ever.

[The Real Will]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1713450' date='Mar 10 2009, 02.11']I don't know if this is the rationale or not, but my crazy fundie ex-SIL told me that birth control was murder because it could stop an already fertilized egg (= precious little human) from being implanted. Whereas with a condom, there would be no fertilization and thus no murder.[/quote]

I thought that the Catholic Church, (and [i]really[/i] fundamental Christians generally) were against condoms as well. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with murder though.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Will' post='1713453' date='Mar 9 2009, 11.14']I thought that the Catholic Church, (and [i]really[/i] fundamental Christians generally) were against condoms as well. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with murder though.[/quote]

Yeah, the RCC is against birth control in general. I can't remember the grounds for it anymore, but I remember them being kinda dumb.

[Annelise]

[quote name='Will' post='1713307' date='Mar 9 2009, 09.15']Of course they could have taken a third road and said that while they don't condone the abortion, the essence of Christianity is forgiveness and that God will welcome these people back to His church if they will repent their sin. It still implies that they did something wrong, which, in my opinion, they did not, but it at least shows some awareness of where the public's sympathies might lie in this situation.[/quote]

Absolutely. And it wouldn't raise this up, a sympathetic situation to just about everyone regardless if they think the decision right or wrong, as worse than another sin you need to seek repentance for. The excommunications amount to detrimental drama for the RCC, IMO.