Martial Arts

[Balefont]

I have such an erection right now.

:leer:

:ninja:

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

you should have called security, staged a scene making it look like he hit you, and then blackmailed him into giving you twelve months' severance and a fistful of airfare vouchers so that you can take your little club and make it coast to coast.

by the way you just broke the first rule.

That's why they turned down my application for Project Mayhem . I fucking knew it. Bastards.

[EHK for Darwin]

Spoken like someone who is completely ignorant about how several different martial arts works. Congratulations. Many traditional dojos will expel you if you go around picking fights and ruining the dojo's name.

Spoken like someone who watched too many kung fu movies as a kid and is still sold on all that cliched, overly romanticized passive mystic bullshit.

And, of course, you are the end-all be-all expert on sports and martial arts. How silly of me to think that anything could ever be different than what you imagine. I'll go notify all those people taking Tai Chi that they should immediately start sparring. (And before you say "but Tai Chi isn't a martial art", when my Wing Chun teacher, who married into a Chinese family and studied for quite a long time in China, tells us that his favorite art for defending himself is Tai Chi, it counts.)

I'm the be all, end all expert on common sense. Common sense tells me that the best way to learn how to wrestle is to wrestle. The best way to learn to punch is to punch. The best way to learn how to masturbate is to practice 4 times daily. And the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. (all of this after an appropriate level preliminary training of course, whatever that might be) If you're going just to enhance your mental focus, self-discipline, spiritual growth, or physical conditioning, then fair enough. But if you're going to learn how to fight, then you are not well served by not fighting. Naturally all out, no rules fighting is both illegal and dangerous, so you take the closest safe and legal approximation that you can, which is sparring.

But, what I will say is, I feel better prepared now for that situation than I ever did taking Taekwondo or Wing Chun or any of the others, even though they did spar. I'm far more confident in my ability to block and escape now, and in my techniques than I was previously.

Couldn't that instead be seen as a damning indictment of Taekwondo and Wing Chun (or at least the particular schools you attended) rather than active fight training/sparring?

And that is not something you can claim otherwise, knowing nothing about this art, how we practice it, what we learn, or anything else. All you can do is sit on the outside and speculate, and you won't even admit that it's speculation and that you could be wrong.

Naturally I could be wrong. I never suggested otherwise. But all things being equal, I would MUCH rather face a martial arts blackbelt from a non-active resistance training (non-sparring/fighting) school in a fight than some mid-level belt holder in BJJ/Muay Thai or other active fighting art. They strike me as MUCH more dangerous and effective.

[ztemhead]

seeing as how this has become the catch-all martial arts thread, and it's a slow Tuesday, here's my current thought-

I know enough to be able to defend myself against a drunk frat boy. but in knowing that, it gives me the confidence to control a situation in which a drunk frat boy is present. (no offense intended to drunks, boys, or members of greek societies; they're just the most accessible example) The feeling that yes, if I need to, I can haul this kid by the scruff of the neck and throw him headlong into the street allows me to act not out of fear, and not out of anger, and instead just do whatever the situation requires for a resolution with minimum hassle.

I often think any self defense style should necessarily require advanced study in conflict resolution before conferring a pretty belt. Yes, lots of people know how to throw a stiff reverse punch, but how many people know techniques for how to turn a heated conversation into a more calm exchange?

[Ken Stone]

Spoken like someone who is completely ignorant about how several different martial arts works. Congratulations. Many traditional dojos will expel you if you go around picking fights and ruining the dojo's name.

You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy between Those who actively spar vs Those who avoid fighting at all costs. Who says you can't do both? In that scenario you actively spar so you are not helpless if the "avoid fighting" fails. Let's face it, if you really want to avoid fighting at all costs you would be better off training track and field.

On that a side note which is the better method to train track and field. A) Running really fast, resting, then running really fast again or B) Practice the running motions slowly.

[Stego]

Some interesting points for thought, Ztem.

[EHK for Darwin]

You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy between Those who actively spar vs Those who avoid fighting at all costs. Who says you can't do both? In that scenario you actively spar so you are not helpless if the "avoid fighting" fails. Let's face it, if you really want to avoid fighting at all costs you would be better off training track and field, than you would training a martial art.

On that a side note which is the better method to train track and field. A) Running really fast, resting, then running really fast again or B) Practice the running motions slowly.

Heh...I had a near identical point typed out earlier, but I thought it was a tad bit too snarky and deleted it. Bah...gotta trust those instincts.

[Balefont]

I often think any self defense style should necessarily require advanced study in conflict resolution before conferring a pretty belt. Yes, lots of people know how to throw a stiff reverse punch, but how many people know techniques for how to turn a heated conversation into a more calm exchange?

Yep, I agree. Just don't take my pretty belts away. They make a rainbow.

[ztemhead]

...but if you do have to fight, be fast, be brutal, and learn to recover quickly if your bell gets rung. ;)

[CiaranAnnrach]

Spoken like someone who watched too many kung fu movies as a kid and is still sold on all that cliched, overly romanticized passive mystic bullshit.

Nope, sorry, this is what several of my teachers have taught us. I honestly can't remember a single kung fu or martial arts movie where they kicked someone out for disgracing the dojo.

I'm the be all, end all expert on common sense. Common sense tells me that the best way to learn how to wrestle is to wrestle. The best way to learn to punch is to punch. The best way to learn how to masturbate is to practice 4 times daily. And the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. (all of this after an appropriate level preliminary training of course, whatever that might be) If you're going just to enhance your mental focus, self-discipline, spiritual growth, or physical conditioning, then fair enough. But if you're going to learn how to fight, then you are not well served by not fighting. Naturally all out, no rules fighting is both illegal and dangerous, so you take the closest safe and legal approximation that you can, which is sparring.

That's not what you're claiming, though. What you're claiming is that the only way to learn how to fight is to fight, which is what I disagree with. You seem to think that I will be utterly defenseless if I don't go out and spar regularly, or join a dojo that spars all the time. I am disagreeing.

The way I see it, there are a hundred different ways to get to the same place. Some people may join BJJ schools and others, focusing only on getting there as quickly as possible. Some people may just get into street fights and train themselves. I chose to take the long route, to enjoy the scenery and other things the art might teach, and I'll get there slower, I'll freely admit that, but I will get there. And, for me, I'll get far more out of the entire experience, than if I had gone to a BJJ school. This is why I said earlier, there is no perfect or best school, only the one that's right for you. And this slower pace, which focuses on several aspects, spiritual and physical, is the right one for me. This is where we disagree.

Couldn't that instead be seen as a damning indictment of Taekwondo and Wing Chun (or at least the particular schools you attended) rather than active fight training/sparring?

I would agree with the Taekwondo school I took at, but I would not be so quick to judge all of Taekwondo. Taekwondo is way too popular, so the quality of dojos varies wildly. Wing Chun is much the same, except he did teach rather well and I did enjoy my training in Wing Chun. It's enriched my martial arts experience, so I'm not so quick to damn it. It's just, the techniques I've learned through traditional jujutsu are better suited to me and my style.

Naturally I could be wrong. I never suggested otherwise. But all things being equal, I would MUCH rather face a martial arts blackbelt from a non-active resistance training (non-sparring/fighting) school in a fight than some mid-level belt holder in BJJ/Muay Thai or other active fighting art. They strike me as MUCH more dangerous and effective.

That's your opinion. I won't say it's wrong, only that I don't quite hold the same opinion, knowing what the black belts in this school are capable of.

And I'll admit, all my sparring experience is with point based sparring, which has me extremely jaded. BJJ, boxing, wrestling, probably very important and probably very useful. But there are quite a lot of dojos that use point based sparring rules which are absolutely worthless, for the reasons Bale mentioned.

[CiaranAnnrach]

You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy between Those who actively spar vs Those who avoid fighting at all costs. Who says you can't do both? In that scenario you actively spar so you are not helpless if the "avoid fighting" fails. Let's face it, if you really want to avoid fighting at all costs you would be better off training track and field.

On that a side note which is the better method to train track and field. A) Running really fast, resting, then running really fast again or B) Practice the running motions slowly.

The comparison was made by EHK, who gave two possibilities. The person who avoids fighting, and the person who goes to bars to pick fights. The latter will get you kicked out of most traditional Japanese dojos.

I make absolutely no distinction between those who actively spar and those who avoid fighting, with the exception that dojos who actively spar will inherently draw more people who are only interested in the fighting aspect and proving they are badass. That is not to say that all people who take those arts are taking it for those reasons, only that those kind of people will automatically discredit nonsparring dojos because they do not spar.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

And I'll admit, all my sparring experience is with point based sparring, which has me extremely jaded. BJJ, boxing, wrestling, probably very important and probably very useful. But there are quite a lot of dojos that use point based sparring rules which are absolutely worthless, for the reasons Bale mentioned.

I'll concur. When I've sparred against TKD "masters" and "world champions" they are all about very fast, ineffectual flurries to the top of the head and chest. They are rarely prepared to be bodily picked up and tossed, or deal with leg kicks, or any of a host of other such things.

[CiaranAnnrach]

Tormund, quick question about what you trained in, with BJJ. How heavily emphasized are breakfalls and rolls?

[Yagathai]

This thread, in video form:

[CiaranAnnrach]

This thread, in video form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxkr4wS7XqY

Can't view it right now. Synopsis?

[Yagathai]

Synopsis: Read this thread, and then drive a hook into your eye.

[Pathetic]

Can't view it right now. Synopsis?

After brief gay porn scene, dude finds out the hard way that acting like an uke in aikido does not work in a fight against a crippled woman, runs head first into a meat hook in shame.

[CiaranAnnrach]

Synopsis: Read this thread, and then drive a hook into your eye.

That sounds rather painful. Could I drive a hook into the eye of someone else instead?

[Yagathai]

Sure, but honestly the hook in the eye isn't the most painful part.

[CiaranAnnrach]

After brief gay porn scene, dude finds out the hard way that acting like an uke in aikido does not work in a fight against a crippled woman, runs head first into a meat hook in shame.

Bah, every good martial artist knows that you're supposed to commit seppuku in shame, not drive a meat hook into your face. That guy is doing it wrong.