Martial Arts

[gryphon strike]

Well clearly if you wish to gain magical powers you must train magical martial arts.

Or I suppose you could practice for real world scenarios, and make sure you can tell what's going on behind you by watching the mirrors and reflections off the windows. But that shit's boring compared to dim mak/ESP/kamehameha, and will never allow you to reach divinity and ascend to heaven.

Gee and here I was talking about human spirit not magical powers but I guess you having trained in so many different styles with such incredible masters know all?

[EHK for Darwin]

Gee and here I was talking about human spirit not magical powers but I guess you having trained in so many different styles with such incredible masters know all?

If you were simply talking about 'human spirit', then your statement was unclear since 2 of us (possibly 3) thought you were claiming supernatural 'spiritual' intervention. And you don't need to have trained in shit to be legitimately skeptical of any claims of 'magic' whether martial arts related or otherwise.

[gryphon strike]

If there were grandmasters like that walking around, presumably one of them would have cashed in by wiping out an MMA division by now.

Anecdotal and it doesn't contradict anything I've said.

Can someone please show me where I said this in this thread?

You act as if MMA people are incapable of doing these things or would refrain from doing so in a real combat situation. They're fully capable. And given their vast experience in active training and close approximation combat 'simulations' (sport/sparring), they'd likely be much more capable of putting themselves into situations to do all the biting/eye gouging/small joint manipulation. These aren't exactly arcane arts here.

Spiritual side for personal enrichment or enhanced focus? Fine. Spiritual side for extraordinary metaphysical powers? Yeah, I'm gonna have to see some well documented evidence.

Sorry you did not say that someone else did you said it doesn't stay all neat and pretty. which after reading the other I mistook for the same thing, my apolagies EHK.

Greater focus etc yes but being able to read your opponent from the smallest moves, the first twitch of the shoulder etc where they are focused on hitting. though I have experienced stuff more mystical as have others I have spoken too.

For example facing 7 guys at once and despite not being able to see them all I had this weird thing going on where those 7 were like red dots on a radar and other people were white dots. it worked VERY well and I didn't get a scratch.

Also Sorry to say EHK not everyone is driven by money. Some people in this world are wise enough to know that happiness is a much better goal to aim for.

[Stego]

For those of you claiming that spiritual martial arts is all BS let me ask you how you can block a punch coming from behind while driving a bus without the spiritual side?

lol.

[Stego]

Lyoto Machida is running through the best division in MMA right now. And I don't see anyone who has a chance of beating him. (And he's not a master yet.)

[Liffguard]

Greater focus etc yes but being able to read your opponent from the smallest moves, the first twitch of the shoulder etc where they are focused on hitting. though I have experienced stuff more mystical as have others I have spoken too.

For example facing 7 guys at once and despite not being able to see them all I had this weird thing going on where those 7 were like red dots on a radar and other people were white dots. it worked VERY well and I didn't get a scratch.

LOL! Heh, you had me going, man. That was a pretty good troll, up till this point. You overdid it a bit in this post.

[EHK for Darwin]

Lyoto Machida is running through the best division in MMA right now. And I don't see anyone who has a chance of beating him. (And he's not a master yet.)

Machida has also trained extensively in sumo, BJJ, wrestling, and Muay Thai, is a very quick and well conditioned athlete, is 31 rather than 61, presumably trains against active opponents. Even the karate he employs is specifically adapted to the sport of MMA and he himself admits that popularly practiced karate is weak for a real fight. He is bringing something somewhat new to the sport, but he also has extensive background in the necessary MMA fundamentals. His success is good for karate, but its not the ringing endorsement for traditional eastern martial arts that some seem to think it is.

Also Sorry to say EHK not everyone is driven by money. Some people in this world are wise enough to know that happiness is a much better goal to aim for.

Not everyone, but certainly there'd be a few. Plus these schools are pretty damned big money-making ventures, I don't think too many of them would pass up the opportunity to quadruple their membership. (which would happen if they started kicking ass and taking names in MMA) Honestly I think alot of them are driven primarily by money, but that's not an argument that can be made reliably either way. Suffice it to say though, if money wasn't a big factor, they'd be running these dojo's as non-profits. (or minimal profits) Last I checked they were pretty damned pricey, a small fortune for the most prominent ones.

For example facing 7 guys at once and despite not being able to see them all I had this weird thing going on where those 7 were like red dots on a radar and other people were white dots. it worked VERY well and I didn't get a scratch.

7 people at once actively trying to hurt you with a response that did not primarily involve running like hell? I find that very hard to believe. And I haven't even touched the red/white dots stuff.

[Balefont]

Ta to Stego, Ciannan and Bale for breaking up the tedious posturing going on in the thread. You've all caused a giggle or two to burst through my lips.

:thumbsup:

Seriously, though, one of the many personal conclusions I've had consistantly confirmed is how much one's ego can be a weakness in the martial arts and it never ceases to amaze me how many martial artists have overwhelmingly inflated egos. There will always be someone out there that can defeat you. Never forget that.

Ciarnan, thanks for the Sticky Hands suggestion. Sounds fascinating. I can only hope I can find a good teacher at some point.

[Sariel]

Huh, this thread is pretty fasinating while at the same time being more than a little frustrating as it seems like people talk past each other.

Now, before I go on; I'm by no means the experienced martial artist that some of you seem to be. I have some years of Judo behind me, and did a little Kung Fu for a while, but never to any serious degree. For this however, I don't think the number of years should define the value of my opinion.

It seems to me here that people practice martial arts for two different reasons. I don't think anyone can seriously argue that sparing does not improve your ability as a fighter. It's like any other field when it comes to the difference between theory and practice. However, many a martial art is not predominantly about becoming a better fighter. Kung Fu for instance. If you want to be a great fighter, Kung Fu is not really the best art to pick. If you want to learn control of your body however, Kung Fu can be brilliant.

That seems to be the core of the misunderstanding here. Some people practice martial arts first and foremost to strenghten their body and mind, and as such sparing is not all that necessary. Those whom also wish to learn to how to tackle a real fight need the sparing aspect. This does not make one martial art better than the other. To make such a judgment, the purpose is essential.

[Balefont]

Thank you, Sariel. Good points.

[Yagathai]

Ciarnan, thanks for the Sticky Hands suggestion. Sounds fascinating. I can only hope I can find a good teacher at some point.

If you move to NYC, I know a guy. He doesn't love teaching whitey, but he'll do it if you pay your fees.

[CiaranAnnrach]

I love sticky hands, Ciaran. I'm not even sure what style that's from. (I studied under Fred Villari, and he evidently took from Kempo, Jui-Jitsu, Kung-Fu, Judo, etc.)

Me either, I learned it under Wing Chun. I know it's a form of Kung-Fu, and it's one of the few things I truly miss from the Chinese arts and wish my current school did. The really nice thing about sticky hands is how practical it is, and teaching your body to react to otherwise unpredictable movements.

If there were grandmasters like that walking around, presumably one of them would have cashed in by wiping out an MMA division by now.

That's some fuzzy logic. "Because they haven't done it, then they couldn't do it." You are assuming that if someone has the ability to do something, then therefore they must go do it. And that's a false premise. You're also assuming that these people would kill another person, just to make a bigger name for themselves. That's an even worse premise.

The Japanese Grandmasters simply have no reason to fight an MMA division, or anyone from the MMA. Fighting for reasons of money, or more students, simply isn't a good reason to fight. It might be to you and most other people who are focused on worldly possessions, but you just don't get to the level of Grandmaster in a traditional martial arts with that kind of attitude. Especially since it goes completely against the spiritual side of most (if not all) traditional martial arts, which teaches you to only fight in self defense or when protecting others.

[CelticBrennus]

I just want to throw in a old George Carlin quote (which I am going to mangle badly):

Any time I hear that someone is taking martial arts I know one of two things. Either he is embarking on a path of spiritual and metaphysical enlightenment, or he is learning how to kill a guy with his little finger.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Alright, martial artistes, tell me how seriously I should take this site. And/or provide alternative suggestions.

Pretty please?

[Inigima]

Sticky Hands and similar drills feature in many of the Chinese martial systems, but I believe they are most famous by way of wing chun.

EHK and gryph, both of you should probably knock it off

These sweeping generalities are absurd, there are plenty of charlatans peddling nonsense out there but there are also plenty of tough as fuck old dudes I wouldn't want to piss off

[Liffguard]

That seems to be the core of the misunderstanding here. Some people practice martial arts first and foremost to strenghten their body and mind, and as such sparing is not all that necessary.

This is true, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem (and again, I'm not accusing anyone personally, just making a general observation) is that too many practitioners are not being honest about this. They'll tell you "we don't spar because we train not to fight. This is about spirituality and humility" on the one hand and then immediately turn around and say "our moves are so dangerous we can fight off seven attackers and break their legs just by squinting real hard."

Which is it? If you want to partake in a cultural/historical/spiritual exercise or get fit whilst having fun, that's fine. If you want to learn to fight. that's fine. If you want to do both at the same time, that's fine. Just don't pretend that the methods for one are the same as for the other.

The Japanese Grandmasters simply have no reason to fight an MMA division, or anyone from the MMA. Fighting for reasons of money, or more students, simply isn't a good reason to fight. It might be to you and most other people who are focused on worldly possessions, but you just don't get to the level of Grandmaster in a traditional martial arts with that kind of attitude.

Okay, they don't have to fight MMA. But how does anyone know they can fight if they don't fight? Demonstrating moves and drills isn't enough. You can't know if someone's a fighter until you've seen them fight. Where's the proof? Also, nice job on slipping a snide little passive-aggressive comment in there.

[RhaegarTar]

I practiced Judo for a year in high school, and have taken it back up for the last two years. Its really been great; good exercise, fun class, great fun. I am terrible at it (though getting better), a large part to the fact that I apparently walk/move incorrectly (not on the balls of the feet, ect) and do not frequently bend my knees. The sensei yells at me, but its all in good fun.

I am however moving to Boston in August and quite apprehensive about finding a club that is family-oriented, fun and good natured, especially about the fact that, while I suck at it, I'm going to keep coming to Judo. Thats the main reason I didn't do it in college - its really hard for me to join a club I know nothing about.

Anyone know any good clubs in Boston? I know its one of the capitals of the country, but that is mainly focused on highly-competitive clubs (Pedross ect). That isn't exactly what i'm looking for.

[Mme Erzulie]

Boxing and Brazilian Jiujitsu for me. I'm a blue belt going on purple (seems like I've been going on purple for a while now, oh well) and been training for about five years. Boxing-wise, well, I suck. No other way of putting it. I'd recommend BJJ as the system to train in for anyone interested in joint locks. It has by far the most systematic and strategic approach to applying these locks out of all the styles that teach them. It's not just a collection of techniques, it's a complete delivery system.

/shamelessBJJnutrider

I trained in the same gym as a class of BJJ, and they were a bunch of hard motherfuckers. Grappling is fucking exhausting.

I have taken Krav Maga for a year, about a year and a half ago . I absolutely loved it.

All punches and kicks were against a partner holding a pad, so you kicked, punched and threw elbows for real, so the muscle memory was there from day one. You knew whether or not you just hit someone witha good punch or not! Plus, being on the receiving end while your partner punched kept you concentrating on what you were doing and help you feel a bit of the impact yourself. They also really reinforced the concept that you have to be in shape to be a good fighter. After punching as hard as I could for 90 seconds, I can really respect the shape that MMA fighters and Boxers are in.

This is pretty much my experience with Krav Maga as well, except that we did more or less full contact sparring from the start. My Norwegian instructors were all pretty tough guys, the head guy frequently training military personnel and law officers. For those of you who don't know, Krav Maga is basically the Israeli army's close combat system (our Israeli boarders will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure). What they teach civilians is basically a vanilla version, leaving out the "finishing" moves of the techniques (the lethal ones). It's a system that is quite the opposite of certain styles of far east martial arts and stuff like capoeira, which focuses heavily on athleticism, agility and spirituality. Krav Maga focuses exclusively on the pragmatic. How to easiest disarm, neutralise or fend off an attacker and get away. No flying kicks or handstands, just brutal efficiency, targeting weak links and pain triggers in the human body.

I absolutely loved the sparring, and found that it quickly separated those who were just going through the motions and those who were actually learning to apply it. There were several highly annoying people in my class who thought they were the shit after just having learned how to throw a proper punch, and I must admit that the petty side of me took quiet satisfaction in putting them in their place through sparring. I still to this day have never been in a real fight, and I realise that no amount of sparring can equal that feeling of someone actually wanting to hurt you with no regard for your safety and no one guaranteed to jump in and stop the fight before someone gets seriously hurt.

There are certain things you just learn from sparring, though, that you can't really learn just by reading about it or being told about it. Just the amount of effort it takes holding an effective guard and blocking punches was a surprise to me. Also, just how much of an advantage reach can be (I'm fairly tall, 6'3-6'4, and initially I thought I was hot shit since so few of my classmates could get any punches in. Then I was paired with a tall, lanky fucker, and it was like an all-you-can-eat fist buffet. I suddenly understood what Frasier meant by "bob and weave, bob and weave").

I have also trained with Eyal Yanilov, the most senior and highest ranking active Krav Maga instructor in the world.

Re: Spirituality

I'm usually pretty suspicious and skeptical of claims of chi and spirituality and this or that. One of my Krav Maga instructors, though, who worked as a special force soldier (he'd be away for months at the time, just saying he'd "done work" when asked where he'd been), the hardest guy I think I've ever met, once showed the class some dim mak. That shit was impressive. He only showed (as opposed to taught) us one move, 3 repeated light kicks to the top of the thigh, that would just send the recipient crashing to the floor. He did it to one of the other instructors, and then to a smart ass in my class who didn't believe it was real. Both of them were still limping the next week.

[CiaranAnnrach]

Okay, they don't have to fight MMA. But how does anyone know they can fight if they don't fight? Demonstrating moves and drills isn't enough. You can't know if someone's a fighter until you've seen them fight. Where's the proof? Also, nice job on slipping a snide little passive-aggressive comment in there.

Hey, thanks!

In this case, the grandmaster was on the Police Force for a good number of years, where he actually had to use his training against thugs and criminals. (Remember, Japanese police don't carry guns.) While he was there, he was approached by several other police officers who wanted to learn what he knew, and those people were essentially his first students. In fact, he created a new martial arts school which is basically a collection of techniques he used while on the force.

[Mme Erzulie]

Max: I would think Krav Maga would be a good alternative to that site.