Feminism Redux

[ljkeane]

I'm serious. If you've never lived as a woman, it is impossible for you to just know what the world is like for them. Your only hope is to listen to what they say about their experiences. You have women right here, explaining it for you, and yet you continue to dismiss their concerns. You are approaching this argument using evidence from nothing but your own imagination. Are you actually hoping to change people's minds this way?

I don't really agree with this, I appreciate that I might be wrong but I don't think my opinion on the subject of male privilege can have no validity because I am not female. When you are discussing whether issues like those on the list would constitute a male privilege, while I might not have experienced the situations described I can still form an opinion as to whether they constitute a privilege which can be applied to men as a whole.

[Lyanna Stark]

This guy wins prick of 2009. Jesus.

Oh, he was uncommonly outspoken and sexist to be sure (and it was back in 2005 I think), but you often see more common and smaller (perhaps what ljkeane would describe as "not harmful enough" to fight for?) things in the workplace.

Like one of my University friends who by her boss got a "promotion", which basically meant more responsibility and work, but no pay rise. Naturally, she objected and went in to forcefully negotiate a payrise. Her boss was sarcastic and not at all understanding, she get pretty upset after awhile, and then he countered with "You are beautiful while angry". What do you even say to that?

[King Bronn]

I don't really agree with this, I appreciate that I might be wrong but I don't think my opinion on the subject of male privilege can have no validity because I am not female. When you are discussing whether issues like those on the list would constitute a male privilege, while I might not have experienced the situations described I can still form an opinion as to whether they constitute a privilege which can be applied to men as a whole.

Your opinion is not based off any relevant evidence, is my point. We're talking about an issue which deals with people's experiences. You have not had these experiences yourself, and you're not listening to the people who have, so where does your opinion come from?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Oh, he was uncommonly outspoken and sexist to be sure (and it was back in 2005 I think), but you often see more common and smaller (perhaps what ljkeane would describe as "not harmful enough" to fight for?) things in the workplace.

Like one of my University friends who by her boss got a "promotion", which basically meant more responsibility and work, but no pay rise. Naturally, she objected and went in to forcefully negotiate a payrise. Her boss was sarcastic and not at all understanding, she get pretty upset after awhile, and then he countered with "You are beautiful while angry". What do you even say to that?

I personally have never seen sexism in any of my work experiences (in fact in the majority of cases my bosses were female). That shit is fucked up however, im sorry for you. Noones ever said 'you are beautiful while angry' to me, so i cant really imagine my reaction :lol: .

I suggest either kicking these twats where its painful or taking legal action. I mean, pretty certain you both have a case.

[ljkeane]

Your opinion is not based off any relevant evidence, is my point. We're talking about an issue which deals with people's experiences. You have not had these experiences yourself, and you're not listening to the people who have, so where does your opinion come from?

No we're not, we're talking about whether these experiences (all of which I accept in some circumstances can occur) constitute a privilege which can be applied to men as a whole in a meaningful way.

[King Bronn]

No we're not, we're talking about whether these experiences (all of which I accept in some circumstances can occur) contistitute a privilege which can be applied to men as a whole in a meaningful way.

And what are you basing your stance on? I've been reading all your posts, and I still don't understand where you're coming from, because all I'm gathering is that you deny that privilege is a systematic thing. Why do you think that?

[Tempra]

Your opinion is not based off any relevant evidence, is my point. We're talking about an issue which deals with people's experiences. You have not had these experiences yourself, and you're not listening to the people who have, so where does your opinion come from?

So does that mean that women cannot speak at all about female privilege?

[Balefont]

This guy wins prick of 2009. Jesus.

If so, then people who say women are less skilled at sports and physical activities than men yet this is okay because at least this short-coming is mitigated by the fact that we get to "enjoy" the miracle of giving birth get an honorable mention.

[ljkeane]

And what are you basing your stance on? I've been reading all your posts, and I still don't understand where you're coming from, because all I'm gathering is that you deny that privilege is a systematic thing. Why do you think that?

My opinion isn't that none of the issues listed constitute a male privilege it's that I think that a number of them are debateable. If the issues listed are the commonly accepted meaning of the term male privilege then I disagree with the concept as it's being used and think that it devalues those issues that do clearly constitute male privilege.

I'm basing my stance on the fact I have read what the author of the list feels constitutes examples of male privilege and despite not having experienced the circumstance described, I don't feel describing all of them as a privilege is justified.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

If so, then people who say women are less skilled at sports and physical activities than men yet this is okay because at least this short-coming is mitigated by the fact that we get to "enjoy" the miracle of giving birth get an honorable mention.

What part of that isnt true? Well apart from the 'enjoy' bit. But a lot of women see the ability to give birth a great thing, so how does saying that make me a prick?

[Balefont]

What part of that isnt true? Well apart from the 'enjoy' bit. But a lot of women see the ability to give birth a great thing, so how does saying that make me a prick?

Based on personal experience (which is ultimately what this topic comes down to)?

I scored a hat trick during a HS scrimmage against the boys soccer team. We won 3-0. (Oh but wait, the boys team must have sucked because there's no way I just had more skill acquired over the 10 years of playing the sport.)

Being pregnant sucked. Giving birth was only made more enjoyable because I would no longer be pregnant. Breast feeding was a painful and excrutiating experience. Constantly having to worry about not getting pregnant again and taking the responsibility for this sucks. Nice fucking miracle. Shall I go on? Oh and the key term is 'some women enjoy having babies'.

[King Bronn]

My opinion isn't that none of the issues listed constitute a male privilege it's that I think that a number of them are debateable. If the issues listed are the commonly accepted meaning of the term male privilege then I disagree with the concept as it's being used and think that it devalues those issues that do clearly constitute male privilege.

I'm basing my stance on the fact I have read what the author of the list feels constitutes examples of male privilege and despite not having experienced the circumstance described, I don't feel describing all of them as a privilege is justified.

Okay, but, WHY? This doesn't substantially change what I understood your argument to be before. "Some of these things constitute male privilege but others don't, so the whole concept is flawed"? Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting you.

Your logic seems to be going "I think it's this way because I decided that it's this way." Why did you decide that it's this way? When you read what the author of the list was saying, what outside pieces of information were you considering when formulating the idea that the description of privilege is not justified?

So does that mean that women cannot speak at all about female privilege?

Er, is this a typo?

[ljkeane]

I scored a hat trick during a HS scrimmage against the boys soccer team. We won 3-0. (Oh but wait, the boys team must have sucked because there's no way I just had more skill acquired over the 10 years of playing the sport.)

I don't know about the relative skills of the players involved but I am pretty confident it was a game or a match not a 'scrimmage' :P

[Balefont]

I don't know about the relative skills of the players involved but I am pretty confident it was a game or a match not a 'scrimmage' :P

Uh, yeah, that's what we called informal "games".

scrim·mage

n.

1. Football The contest between two teams from the time the ball is snapped until it is declared dead.
   
2. Sports A practice session or informal game, as between two units of the same team.
   

:P

(Although we weren't two units of the same team so I guess if you wanna get real technical.)

[ljkeane]

Your logic seems to be going "I think it's this way because I decided that it's this way." Why did you decide that it's this way? When you read what the author of the list was saying, what outside pieces of information were you considering when formulating the idea that the description of privilege is not justified?

I don't see what your point is, I don't agree that some of the examples used meet the definition of being a privilege or I don't think it is logical that they be applied to men as a whole. What else should I be considering if I don't feel the example meets the basic requirement of being a privilege?.

[King Bronn]

I don't see what your point is, I don't agree that some of the examples used meet the definition of being a privilege or I don't think it is logical that they be applied to men as a whole. What else should I be considering if I don't feel the example meets the basic requirement of being a privilege?.

The opinions of other people, for one. What I'm trying to get at is that it seems you reached this conclusion using nothing but what's inside your own head. A person is entitled to hold any opinion they want, but that doesn't mean it's a good opinion that's not subject to debate. I'm assuming you are open to debate, since you continue to post on this thread and interact with people who disagree with you. If we're going to argue meaningfully, I'd like to hear why you reached the conclusions that you did, beyond just "I decided it was this way."

Why don't you think it's logical that they be applied to men as a whole? That's a good starting point.

[Tempra]

Er, is this a typo?

Did I misread what you said? Did you not tell a male that he cannot comment on male privilege because he hasn't had these experiences himself?

[ljkeane]

The opinions of other people, for one. What I'm trying to get at is that it seems you reached this conclusion using nothing but what's inside your own head. A person is entitled to hold any opinion they want, but that doesn't mean it's a good opinion that's not subject to debate. I'm assuming you are open to debate, since you continue to post on this thread and interact with people who disagree with you. If we're going to argue meaningfully, I'd like to hear why you reached the conclusions that you did, beyond just "I decided it was this way."

Why don't you think it's logical that they be applied to men as a whole? That's a good starting point.

I'm not saying that you can't disagree with me, I'm just saying that feeling that an example fails to meet the definition of being a privilege is a logical basis for having the opinion that it does not qualify as a male privilege.

An example of one of the things on the list which I feel do not apply to men as a whole is the issue of the relative quality, fit and cost of men's clothing. I think this is extremely subjective and would really depend on the individuals concerned and as such cannot be applied to men a whole, another example of this is the issue of a grooming regimen.

I don't want to get into debating the merits of the various example but my point is simply that I think some of them are debateable.

[King Bronn]

I'm not saying that you can't disagree with me, I'm just saying that feeling that an example failing to meet the definition of being a privilege is a logical basis for having the opinion that it does not qualify as a male privilege.

An example of one of the things on the list which I feel do not apply to men as a whole is the issue of the relative quality, fit and cost of men's clothing. I think this is extremely subjective and would really depend on the individuals concerned and as such cannot be applied to men a whole, another example of this is the issue of a grooming regimen.

I don't want to get into debating the merits of the various example but my point is simply that I think some of them are debateable.

Anecdote time: I have never met a woman who claimed she didn't have trouble shopping for clothes. I can think of only one man I've heard express trouble shopping for clothes (my dad, because he's so damn tall and skinny). Yes, obviously, this is something that affects individuals, but there is a larger pattern affecting a group.

I know you said you didn't want to get into debating individual points, but I think my point here is key. These are patterns, not aboslutes. Patterns of daily occurances that wear away at you and are inescapable in your daily life.

cannot be applied to men a whole

This is not about men, actually. Admittedly, you did make a lot of remarks about disliking the term "male privilege." If we called it "female underprivilege," will that make it easier to talk about? The thing is, one can't exist without the other; whatever terminology you use, the fact is that one group has less than another. But our focus is not on all the great things that happen to men, so much as how these things do not happen to women.

Did I misread what you said? Did you not tell a male that he cannot comment on male privilege because he hasn't had these experiences himself?

No, I absolutely did not say that.

[ljkeane]

Anecdote time: I have never met a woman who claimed she didn't have trouble shopping for clothes. I can think of only one man I've heard express trouble shopping for clothes (my dad, because he's so damn tall and skinny). Yes, obviously, this is something that affects individuals, but there is a larger pattern affecting a group.

I think you could make the argument that this is a reflection of the range of choices available to women rather than the quality that is available to them though. I'm not arguing that this might not represent a difficulty for some women but if we are going to define the issue as a male privilege then the issue should clearly provide a benefit to men simply as a consequence of being male.

Again I don't really want to debate the specific merits of the examples used my point is simply that they are debateable.